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Gomez trade in the works? LEGIT SOURCES ONLY (Part II)

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Old
06-30-2011, 10:02 AM
  #176
Andy
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
The Rivet for Gorges & Pacioretty trade says he did just fine.
Garon for Huet and Bonk
Balej for Kovalev


people only like to look at the negative crap.

Like evry other GM gainey won some and lost some.

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06-30-2011, 10:03 AM
  #177
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Maybe you don't remember that McDonough was a high first round pick. Not O'B.
Way to go, you completely miss the point by telling me something I already knew. You're comprehension skills are off the charts. So off the charts, they're nowhere to be seen.

Now, you might argue over the value of a pick vs another pick, but the matter of the fact is that McD was behind his expected development curve when he got traded, his value wasn't high (in comparison, just to give you an idea, Weber's value is much higher right now than McD was at the time of the trade).

And for now, all he has IS stats comparable to OB's rookie season, to many other rookie D seasons, many of which went through big bumps, and some who never got back on track.

So either way, if you wanna make this about the value of the "1st round pick player" at the time, than McD's value wasn't that high, not high like a Subban or a Weber, and if you wanna make this about McD's value now, well, that's what the OB example is for. To show that we'll have to wait a little while longer before even concluding if the Gomez trade was good or not.

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06-30-2011, 10:04 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
Ummm, I don't want to sound disrespectful but, what? That comment does not even make any sense.
Chelios scored almost as many points in his first three years with Chicago as Denis Savard scored in his three years as a Hab. Oh and Chelios ended up playing 14 more seasons and built the majority of his hall of fame career after he left Montreal. As a Pierre McGuire sometimes says 'You should give your heads a shake!'.
I never said the Chelios trade was a good one. I just said the Gomez trade was worse. They won a Cup with Savard & he never saddled them with a ridiculous contract.

Chelios for Savard.......the Habs win a Cup with Savard balanced with the fact that Chelios went on to have a Hall of Fame career except he moved on and didn't stay with the Hawks. Agreed it was a bad trade in the long ter,. Short term, Savard helped us get a Cup.

The Gomez trade....we trade away 3 assets - one of which will become a top 4 d-man for a mediocre 2nd line centerman who in a salary cap world earns over 7 million dollars and handcuffs the team because he's not earning his money and he's playing so badly no one wants him.

And you brought up Pierre McGuire about shaking your heads. Why don't you go back and listen to Pierre and hear what he had to say about the trade.

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06-30-2011, 10:15 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
The Rivet for Gorges & Pacioretty trade says he did just fine.
That trade was for Gorges and a 1st round draft pick. Timmins drafted Pacioretty. It isn't the same thing. But it was a good trade, yes. But even Milbury made some good trades.

If you look at Gainey's tenure the only remedying aspect is Timmins drafting.

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06-30-2011, 10:15 AM
  #180
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Gainey decimates the core of a team that just could not get over the hump, brings in a load of proven playoff performers and we go to the final four. Success, what happens after that, we slide back a step due to key injuries and really were an overtime goal away form beating the eventual cup winners. The disdain for the Gomez deal knows no bounds in this forum, yet, it continues to provide success to our team.

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06-30-2011, 10:17 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Way to go, you completely miss the point by telling me something I already knew. You're comprehension skills are off the charts. So off the charts, they're nowhere to be seen.

Now, you might argue over the value of a pick vs another pick, but the matter of the fact is that McD was behind his expected development curve when he got traded, his value wasn't high (in comparison, just to give you an idea, Weber's value is much higher right now than McD was at the time of the trade).

And for now, all he has IS stats comparable to OB's rookie season, to many other rookie D seasons, many of which went through big bumps, and some who never got back on track.

So either way, if you wanna make this about the value of the "1st round pick player" at the time, than McD's value wasn't that high, not high like a Subban or a Weber, and if you wanna make this about McD's value now, well, that's what the OB example is for. To show that we'll have to wait a little while longer before even concluding if the Gomez trade was good or not.
LOL i dont have to wait to conclude if the Gomez trade was good or not- it wasnt the day it happened and it isnt now!

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06-30-2011, 10:17 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Garon for Huet and Bonk
Balej for Kovalev


people only like to look at the negative crap.

Like evry other GM gainey won some and lost some.
So true.

Gainey took a gamble. If Gomez ended up producing 60-70 points every year this trade would have been good for us. Sadly it didn't turn out that way.

Some people say Gainey&Gauthier are ''spineless'' or ''sleeping at the wheel''. The Gomez move was the opposite. Risky moves are... well risky, and when they don't work out well they look very bad (or make the GM look very good. Kovalev trade is a good example. Balej was one of our top prospects and Kovalev was a struggling overpaid Rangers player. does that remind anyone of someone?).

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06-30-2011, 10:17 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
That trade was for Gorges and a 1st round draft pick. Timmins drafted Pacioretty. It isn't the same thing. But it was a good trade, yes. But even Milbury made some good trades.

If you look at Gainey's tenure the only remedying aspect is Timmins drafting.

So you did not like Kovalev here? Not a fan of Gorges? No likey Gionta and Cammy? No love for Price?

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06-30-2011, 10:20 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
LOL i dont have to wait to conclude if the Gomez trade was good or not- it wasnt the day it happened and it isnt now!
Oz provided some actual argumentation to back up his points.

You don't, and instead decide to throw out "LOL" as if it constitutes some kind of counter argument.

But that's what I've come to expect from this forum, sadly.

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Old
06-30-2011, 10:22 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Garon for Huet and Bonk
Balej for Kovalev


people only like to look at the negative crap.

Like evry other GM gainey won some and lost some.
So true.

Gainey took a gamble. If Gomez ended up producing 60-70 points every year this trade would have been good for us. Sadly it didn't turn out that way.

Some people say Gainey&Gauthier are ''spineless'' or ''sleeping at the wheel''. The Gomez move was the opposite. Risky moves are... well risky, and when they don't work out well they look very bad (or make the GM look very good. Kovalev trade is a good example. Balej was one of our top prospects and Kovalev was a struggling overpaid Rangers player. does that remind anyone of someone?).

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Old
06-30-2011, 10:24 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
I never said the Chelios trade was a good one. I just said the Gomez trade was worse. They won a Cup with Savard & he never saddled them with a ridiculous contract.

Chelios for Savard.......the Habs win a Cup with Savard balanced with the fact that Chelios went on to have a Hall of Fame career except he moved on and didn't stay with the Hawks. Agreed it was a bad trade in the long ter,. Short term, Savard helped us get a Cup.
The Habs won the Cup INSPITE of Chelios being traded, not because he was traded. In fact, Denis Savard played only 14 games in the playoffs (contributing only 5 assists) and none in the finals if I remember correctly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
The Gomez trade....we trade away 3 assets - one of which will become a top 4 d-man for a mediocre 2nd line centerman who in a salary cap world earns over 7 million dollars and handcuffs the team because he's not earning his money and he's playing so badly no one wants him.
Actually we gave up 3 assets (two of which are not currently on the NHL club) for what was perceived by many NHLers as a legitimate #1 centerman at the time. But that's not all we ended up getting (and I'm not talking about Pyatt and Busto).

From my post a little higher up in this thread:
Quote:
....please don't forget that with Gomez came Gionta, Cammer, and probably Hal Gill. While they are not superstar players, they have played a HUGE roll in our success the last two years.
People can say what they want about the Canadiens offering more money than others, but in over 15 years of free agency in the NHL, they had NEVER signed a prominent UFA that had not already played with the team. There's no way 2 all of sudden sign here with 37 point Tomas Pleckanec as the #1 center and a team that essentially imploded in the second half of season.

Now, not only having those players had a positive result on the success of the team, having Gionta and Cammer also allowed Patches to play in Hamilton at the end of the '08-'09 season and the beginning of the '09-'10 season, which potentially saved his career (as a first line player that is). Furthermore, I don't think anyone can debate the effect Hal Gill had on PK Subban, who is on his way to becoming a mega star.

So the way I see it, the Habs traded McDonagh for Gomez, Cammer, Gionta, Gill, the development of Patches into a legitimate top 6 forward (and maybe power forward) and the maturity of PK Subban. Doesn't look like the "top 5 worst trade" in team history to me.
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
And you brought up Pierre McGuire about shaking your heads. Why don't you go back and listen to Pierre and hear what he had to say about the trade.
Actually, I listen to Pierre virtually every day. So I've heard what he thinks of the trade many times because he tends to repeat himself, particularly when it comes to dissing the Habs players, coaches, and management, which he does often.
If you listen to Elliotte Friedman talk about the trade, his view is a lot more tempered, even if he is not totally in agreement with it. And for the record, I did not love it at the time and I don't love it now, but between trading McDonagh for Gomez or PK, Pleckanec and maybe Halak or Price for Lecavalier (as was rumored) I would take the Gomez trade all day.

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Old
06-30-2011, 10:26 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Gainey decimates the core of a team that just could not get over the hump, brings in a load of proven playoff performers and we go to the final four. Success, what happens after that, we slide back a step due to key injuries and really were an overtime goal away form beating the eventual cup winners. The disdain for the Gomez deal knows no bounds in this forum, yet, it continues to provide success to our team.
Here, here! Gainey did exactly what many critics here are demanding. He gave up players/prospects/money to sign highly skilled players who were proven winners to bring a cup to Montreal. Has it worked out so far? Very close last year. With skilled and proud players, inevitably they bounce back from a dismal season with a better one. Especially if some added offense can be added and the young D comes to play.

Gainey is one of the most intelligent and respected men in hockey. His work in Dallas as GM was masterful and that could still be his legacy here.

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Old
06-30-2011, 10:28 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
So true.

Gainey took a gamble. If Gomez ended up producing 60-70 points every year this trade would have been good for us. Sadly it didn't turn out that way.

Some people say Gainey&Gauthier are ''spineless'' or ''sleeping at the wheel''. The Gomez move was the opposite. Risky moves are... well risky, and when they don't work out well they look very bad (or make the GM look very good. Kovalev trade is a good example. Balej was one of our top prospects and Kovalev was a struggling overpaid Rangers player. does that remind anyone of someone?).
Please, just stop trying to defend Gainey for the Gomez trade. Nobody in their right mind would have acquired Gomez for those kind of dollars, don't try and sugar-coat that move in any sort of way.

Even if Gomez had brought 60 points to his seasonal play, you can't tie up that kind of money on those type of numbers, its unreasonable and irresponsible of a GM to take that contract on.

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06-30-2011, 10:29 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Oz provided some actual argumentation to back up his points.

You don't, and instead decide to throw out "LOL" as if it constitutes some kind of counter argument.

But that's what I've come to expect from this forum, sadly.
you like the trade i guess- I DONT- Never have from the Day it was made- if any other team would have made that trade i would have laughed and said thank God Its Not Montreal!!

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06-30-2011, 10:32 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Gainey decimates the core of a team that just could not get over the hump, brings in a load of proven playoff performers and we go to the final four. Success, what happens after that, we slide back a step due to key injuries and really were an overtime goal away form beating the eventual cup winners. The disdain for the Gomez deal knows no bounds in this forum, yet, it continues to provide success to our team.
Agreed 100%!

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06-30-2011, 10:37 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
Gainey decimates the core of a team that just could not get over the hump, brings in a load of proven playoff performers and we go to the final four. Success, what happens after that, we slide back a step due to key injuries and really were an overtime goal away form beating the eventual cup winners. The disdain for the Gomez deal knows no bounds in this forum, yet, it continues to provide success to our team.
People can't read this enough. Please read the above. It provides wisdome.

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06-30-2011, 10:39 AM
  #192
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are people seriously STILL trying to defend the Gomez trade? Really?

I get the love for Gainey as a player, but at this point his stint as manager speaks for itself... he wasn't terrible in the Milbury sense (though the Gomez trade is right up there with some of Milbury's gems), but the best you could say about his tenure is that it was mediocre.

He inherited a solid nucleus of young players that all but guaranteed improvements in the standings (having Markov come into his own, by itself, made the team light years better than it had been prior to Gainey's arrival... neither Houle nor Savard had the luxury of an elite top-pairing Dman to work with, and as we saw during Gainey's tenure, the team imploded anytime he was out of the lineup).

not to mention that he also got to work with a bigger budget and with a salary cap (as a cap spending team), again two elements that his predecessors did not benefit from.

instead of taking an team with a well stocked nucleus of assets (thanks to solid drafting and a few years of higher picks) and turning it into an elite one, he made a number of head scratching moves (trades/signings) that resulted in the team hovering around the mediocre level... just good enough to squeak into the playoffs but not able to do much once they got there.

if anything, PG has done a pretty decent job of managing the problematic roster he inherited to keep the team at the same level... but by now patience is rightfully starting to wear thin b/c the montreal fan base expects more than maintaining the mediocre status quo, and the only way to get out of that is to proactively build up the teams asset base... sadly it appears that PG is inept in that department, as was Gainey, and so we get a lot of "average" moves that, while not terrible, do nothing to ultimately strengthen the teams long-term outlook.

i can see how making excuses over and over again can help ease the pain of watching the team float around the middle of the pack level year after year, i just don't think a sports franchise with the history and culture of the Montreal Canadiens should settle for that.

being the best is as much about attitude as it is about anything else, this team hasn't had a winning attitude, from the top down, for far too long.

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06-30-2011, 10:41 AM
  #193
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habs board: the only place where one bad season negates an entire career

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06-30-2011, 10:45 AM
  #194
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Gomez is fine, he's only a few million overpriced cap wise, it's not a crippling sum

Furthermore, I'm sure none of the players on the team have a problem with him as a teammate, and they enjoy playing with him. He brings a lot to the team despite his point production. I have no problem keeping him another year

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06-30-2011, 10:47 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Agreed 100%!
MAybe HAbs will put up a new banner at the Bell for there home opener --- ALMOST BEAT THE BRUINS ---

- Habs went to semis 2 seasons ago and thats all we heard from Goat(with no real upgrading in the off season)- this last season they had a 2 to 0 lead going home and lost in 7 went out in the first rd- nothing to spout positive about that - to me its a regression


Last edited by larek: 06-30-2011 at 10:52 AM.
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06-30-2011, 10:48 AM
  #196
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are people seriously STILL trying to defend the Gomez trade? Really?

I get the love for Gainey as a player, but at this point his stint as manager speaks for itself... he wasn't terrible in the Milbury sense (though the Gomez trade is right up there with some of Milbury's gems), but the best you could say about his tenure is that it was mediocre.

He inherited a solid nucleus of young players that all but guaranteed improvements in the standings (having Markov come into his own, by itself, made the team light years better than it had been prior to Gainey's arrival... neither Houle nor Savard had the luxury of an elite top-pairing Dman to work with, and as we saw during Gainey's tenure, the team imploded anytime he was out of the lineup).

not to mention that he also got to work with a bigger budget and with a salary cap (as a cap spending team), again two elements that his predecessors did not benefit from.

instead of taking an team with a well stocked nucleus of assets (thanks to solid drafting and a few years of higher picks) and turning it into an elite one, he made a number of head scratching moves (trades/signings) that resulted in the team hovering around the mediocre level... just good enough to squeak into the playoffs but not able to do much once they got there.

if anything, PG has done a pretty decent job of managing the problematic roster he inherited to keep the team at the same level... but by now patience is rightfully starting to wear thin b/c the montreal fan base expects more than maintaining the mediocre status quo, and the only way to get out of that is to proactively build up the teams asset base... sadly it appears that PG is inept in that department, as was Gainey, and so we get a lot of "average" moves that, while not terrible, do nothing to ultimately strengthen the teams long-term outlook.

i can see how making excuses over and over again can help ease the pain of watching the team float around the middle of the pack level year after year, i just don't think a sports franchise with the history and culture of the Montreal Canadiens should settle for that.

being the best is as much about attitude as it is about anything else, this team hasn't had a winning attitude, from the top down, for far too long.
Quoted for truth...

I couldn't agree more.

The habs no1 goal is to make money not win a Cup. They prefered going the safe way, making sure to get to the playoffs instead of trying for the home run.

But I must say, right now, it's the worst I felt in terms of future hopes in the last 5-7 years.

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06-30-2011, 10:52 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by larek View Post
MAybe HAbs will put up a new banner up at the Bell for there home
opener-ALMOST Beat The Bruins! --
- habs went to semis 2 seasons ago and thats all we heard from Goat- this last season they had a 2 to 0 lead going home and lost in 7 - nothing to spout positive about that - to me its a regression
It's hard to consider it as regression in the term of how the team evolved. Regression in results would be the perfect way to put it. As it's been said a thousand+ times this offseason, injuries were the key factor. Normally, that's a simple excuse, but last year was a really bad year health-wise in the organisation. We lost our best dman and a key defensive player in our team. Thankfully, PG replaced those two players, but if Markov and Gorges would've remained healthy, we could've used our 2nd round pick to get a top 6 player that was needed badly.

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06-30-2011, 11:00 AM
  #198
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It's hard to consider it as regression in the term of how the team evolved. Regression in results would be the perfect way to put it. As it's been said a thousand+ times this offseason, injuries were the key factor. Normally, that's a simple excuse, but last year was a really bad year health-wise in the organisation. We lost our best dman and a key defensive player in our team. Thankfully, PG replaced those two players, but if Markov and Gorges would've remained healthy, we could've used our 2nd round pick to get a top 6 player that was needed badly.
would have could have should have- all teams fans can say that
being up 2- to zip going home and blowing the series thats the facts
it was to ME a failure and a choke

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06-30-2011, 11:11 AM
  #199
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would have could have should have- all teams fans can say that
being up 2- to zip going home and blowing the series thats the facts
it was to ME a failure and a choke
We can stop analyzing the series like you do after 2 games and forget the rest. Of course it looks like a disgrace.

Or you can focus on the whole series overall and see that the Bruins were the favorites and supposed to win the series with a full roster and hot goaltender. The habs were no where near the team they were supposed to be last year. Too many injuries blurred the real value of this team.

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06-30-2011, 11:13 AM
  #200
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You MUST be right! Because there is no way that when asked by Michael Landsberg on OTR if he would still have signed a contract with the habs if Gomez wasn't acquired, Cammalleri took a long pause and said "I'm not sure..."

Because if that would have ever happened, then you would be the one to need to look up the word moron in the dictionary.

The Gomez trade was brutal, but it was a factor in bringing in Gionta and Cammalleri to the habs. If he would not have been traded for, the habs would have looked to be in rebuilding mode almost as they would not have any star players.
Geez, don't tell me we would have had the opportunity to draft Tavares or Duchesne OR Hall or Seguin. wow !

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