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Gomez trade in the works? LEGIT SOURCES ONLY (Part II)

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06-30-2011, 01:41 PM
  #251
Markowicz
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
Please stop using this speculation as an argument. The consensus was that we overpaid both Cams and Gionta by $1M each. This is really frustrating because it's impossible to argue against speculation. "They would not be here if wasnt for Gomez" maybe Koivu would have been enough, maybe an other UFA or maybe an other center acquired would have been enough or maybe Plekanec would have been enough. All you guys are doing is using this excuse to void facing the fact that we got fleeced in that Gomez trade and the he been nothing but disappointing since. For the love of god stop hiding from reality behind fake arguments.

It's mind numbing to see people still defending Gomez today.
I'm not hiding behind anything, and i'm not defending Gomez. I'm just thinking critically. Sometimes there's is no proof, sometimes players don't come right out and say "i signed here because of such and such player." I just think you'd be unrealistic to think that Koivu and Plekanec would have been enough to draw actual top talent to this team. Just because there's not undeniable proof about why we got Cammy and Gionta here, doesn't mean what i'm saying is not true. I truly believe that the Gomez trade paved the way for those guys to be signed, and I don't need proof of it to believe it. And i never said i liked Gomez or think he's done a satisfactory job with this this team. I just think the trade was a necessary evil.

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06-30-2011, 01:47 PM
  #252
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...

that was my point
Nope, you made an appeal to deductive logic, not probabilities.

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06-30-2011, 01:52 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
youre living in lalaland. where's this alternative? "If the opportunity arises that you can move that contract you do"? unless that return fills the hole you are creating in your lineup, ok. otherwise you'd be stupid to. and centermen, especially #1 centermen, are prized possessions... you need to give a lot to get one, and we did.
The hole we have to fill is 7 goals 31 assists -15. 48% faceoffs. That's the easiest hole we've ever had to fill.

Desharnais had 8 goals 14 assists -3 in 1/3 the ice time.

And we have $7M to fill it.

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06-30-2011, 01:58 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Nope, you made an appeal to deductive logic, not probabilities.
oh give me a ****ing break, don't be such a pedant. i could go on an ozy-like rant, but you knew perfectly well what i meant yet chose to focus on my admittedly poor choice of words rather than the substance

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06-30-2011, 02:00 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
The hole we have to fill is 7 goals 31 assists -15. 48% faceoffs. That's the easiest hole we've ever had to fill.

Desharnais had 8 goals 14 assists -3 in 1/3 the ice time.

And we have $7M to fill it.
But but but ... Gomez won Stanley Cups by himself.

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06-30-2011, 02:01 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
The hole we have to fill is 7 goals 31 assists -15. 48% faceoffs. That's the easiest hole we've ever had to fill.

Desharnais had 8 goals 14 assists -3 in 1/3 the ice time.

And we have $7M to fill it.
you're serious?

have you watched any games this year? on many away games, the opposing coach would match his best line against DD's line. i'll leave a blank here and let you figure out why that is

players are more than just their stats.

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06-30-2011, 02:05 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
you're serious?

have you watched any games this year? on many away games, the opposing coach would match his best line against DD's line. i'll leave a blank here and let you figure out why that is

players are more than just their stats.
I watched every game. Enough to know you dont need any special assignment to cover Gomez.

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06-30-2011, 02:07 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
Lots of talk for no real reason IMO.. the debate has been done many times. Yes he's overpaid. Yes, he is going to play next season... deal with it.

Unless PG finds a taker for Gomez AND signs Richards, there's nowhere for #11 to leave this team IMO. So basically, impossible. There are no other options for our #1 C.
I find it completely ridiculous that you and others are calling Gomez our #1 centre over Plekanec - who plays with our best winger in Cammalleri.

Plekanec is our #1 centre. He's not top of the line, but he's still great.

Gomez is nothing more than a mid-level #2 centre (or a #3 non-denfensive dman last year).

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06-30-2011, 02:23 PM
  #259
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Sorry, but it's time to give hockey players some merit and intelligence. Tell me how the great Scott Gomez was able to a factor in having guys play for us while we were never able to bring anybody when Saku Koivu was in. You know, that Koivu, that warrior, worshiped by everybody INCLUDING BRUINS FANS (says a lot), who had all his battles, an example of what hard work and dedication is AND on top of that, a good playoff performer. Let say the Gomez don't work....does Koivu sticks around? Some say he wanted to go....some others say he would have but Gainey thought it was time to move.....But it was time 'cause Gainey thought Gomez was THE guy.

And by the way, the Habs would have been in rebuilding mode? Seriously? You think they would have let that happen? We would have tanked that year? Geez, so no Gomez, Gionta and Cammy (though Gionta didn't say that on OTR and his story about going back to Lamoriello with Habs offer is public knowledge...) would have meant one Tavares, Hedman or Duchesne....another reason to hate Gomez....as if I needed more.....
You know the old adage: actions speak louder than words. In all the years prior to 2009, 0 prominent free agents chose Montreal over another city. And when I say prominent, I am not only referring to superstars, even players like Martin Lapointe said no to Montreal. And it was not from a lack of trying. The reports of players being wood, particularly after George Gillette became owner, are no secrets to anyone that has been following the team over the last 10-15 years.
Despite all this, none came and most just used the Habs offer to get more money elsewhere.
All of a sudden, after a failed season where the team completely tanked and there were, I believe, 11 free agents they are able to sign Cammer and Gionta?
Yeah, I really bet it's because both really wanted to play here.

The fact of the matter is that for players, name recognition and perception is everything. No one around the league thought Saku Koivu was a number one center. Whether that was because he really wasn't or more because he never really had a legitimate first line player on his line (expect for maybe Recchi for a short time before getting injured) that was the impression. Gomez, regardless of what fans think, was a player that was an important part of a Stanley Cup victory and had registered at least 55 points in all but 2 seasons in the NHL playing for strongly defensive minded teams. Not really all that complicated to see why he would have been seen in a better light.

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Originally Posted by HabsRealist View Post
Can people who say " we got Gomez, so Cammy, Gionta, etc. came " please look up moron in the dictionairy. Now look at your drivers license picture. Same, isnt it ?

I forgot, after we got Gomez, the world turned, the sun came up, several new stars
were discovered by astronomers, all thanks to Gomez !!!!! We should all turn to
him for guidance for the mideast crisis and government debt reduction.

Wow, and to think other similiar 4th liners arent doing nearly as much for humanity.
While we're looking up stuff in the dictionary, maybe you should look about faker. Cause people that spend all their time b*tch*ng and hating but try to justify it by calling themselves realists aren't really fooling anyone.

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06-30-2011, 02:31 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
you're serious?

have you watched any games this year? on many away games, the opposing coach would match his best line against DD's line. i'll leave a blank here and let you figure out why that is

players are more than just their stats.
Actually, what I saw was Gomez blowing his coverage and the other team scoring on us! Many more times ithe PO's against Boston as well. The guy didn't score and he didn't play defense. He was a $7.5 M Tom Pyatt!

With $8M available without even trading Gomez we should definitely tender an offer to Richards if he signs we'll have the most depth at centre we've had in decades and we can still deal Gomez at the trade deadline when his remaining contract becomes much less then it's cap hit to pick up some size for the PO run.

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06-30-2011, 02:31 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Quoted for truth...

I couldn't agree more.

The habs no1 goal is to make money not win a Cup. They prefered going the safe way, making sure to get to the playoffs instead of trying for the home run.

But I must say, right now, it's the worst I felt in terms of future hopes in the last 5-7 years.
Have you ever taken an economics course? Like even in high school? Because the first principle of any business (for-profit or non-profit alike) is to make money. A business can sugarcoat it with other "missions" and stuff like than, but the number one goal is to make money.

Second, if a business wants to make more money, it has to either increase revenues or decrease costs. While the Habs have continually increased ticket prices over the years, if their only interest was to make money, the best way to do that would be to reduce costs (i.e., lower payroll).
The Habs spend to the cap every year.
An argument that they don't spend it wisely would be valid. Your argument that they "only want to make money not win a Cup", sorry to inform you, is not.

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06-30-2011, 02:33 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Actually, what I saw was Gomez blowing his coverage and the other team scoring on us! Many more times ithe PO's against Boston as well. The guy didn't score and he didn't play defense. He was a $7.5 M Tom Pyatt!

With $8M available without even trading Gomez we should definitely tender an offer to Richards if he signs we'll have the most depth at centre we've had in decades and we can still deal Gomez at the trade deadline when his remaining contract becomes much less then it's cap hit to pick up some size for the PO run.
How is he a 7.5M Tom Pyatt? Pyatt played defense ...

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06-30-2011, 02:37 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
You know the old adage: actions speak louder than words. In all the years prior to 2009, 0 prominent free agents chose Montreal over another city. And when I say prominent, I am not only referring to superstars, even players like Martin Lapointe said no to Montreal. And it was not from a lack of trying. The reports of players being wood, particularly after George Gillette became owner, are no secrets to anyone that has been following the team over the last 10-15 years.
Despite all this, none came and most just used the Habs offer to get more money elsewhere.
All of a sudden, after a failed season where the team completely tanked and there were, I believe, 11 free agents they are able to sign Cammer and Gionta?
Yeah, I really bet it's because both really wanted to play here.

The fact of the matter is that for players, name recognition and perception is everything. No one around the league thought Saku Koivu was a number one center. Whether that was because he really wasn't or more because he never really had a legitimate first line player on his line (expect for maybe Recchi for a short time before getting injured) that was the impression. Gomez, regardless of what fans think, was a player that was an important part of a Stanley Cup victory and had registered at least 55 points in all but 2 seasons in the NHL playing for strongly defensive minded teams. Not really all that complicated to see why he would have been seen in a better light.


While we're looking up stuff in the dictionary, maybe you should look about faker. Cause people that spend all their time b*tch*ng and hating but try to justify it by calling themselves realists aren't really fooling anyone.
That's all fine and dandy, but what you and many others fail to notice is that Montreal was in a position they were never in before. They had Cap Space others didn't have. Prior to the lockout there were teams who could spend as much or more, in 2009 Montreal was one of the only teams with 20+million at their disposal.

Try to keep up with the times, I don't know if you know, but a CBA was negotiated and a Salary Cap was put in place. What happened in 1999 or 2003 aren't even slightly comparable, neither were other of the previous post lockout years, because the Habs were never before in the driver seat with an advantage over their opponents (cap Space). Had the Habs been tight to the cap and unable to offer premium contracts, neither Cammy or Gionta would be a Hab. Money was the reason and ideal circumstance, not Scott Gomez, yet Gainey managed to squander the competitive advantage we had over many other teams that off season, by making the 2nd worst trade in Habs history and the worst trade in post lockout hockey.

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06-30-2011, 02:37 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Actually, what I saw was Gomez blowing his coverage and the other team scoring on us! Many more times ithe PO's against Boston as well. The guy didn't score and he didn't play defense. He was a $7.5 M Tom Pyatt!

With $8M available without even trading Gomez we should definitely tender an offer to Richards if he signs we'll have the most depth at centre we've had in decades and we can still deal Gomez at the trade deadline when his remaining contract becomes much less then it's cap hit to pick up some size for the PO run.
im not arguing he had a god-awful season and hopefully he'll picks things up this time around. yeah, by all means, tender an offer to richards. i'll still eat a shoe if he signs here though...


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 06-30-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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06-30-2011, 02:41 PM
  #265
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This thread isn't remotely on topic anymore...............

this Gomez bashing has got to stop.........

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06-30-2011, 02:43 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
How is he a 7.5M Tom Pyatt? Pyatt played defense ...
I stand corrected and apologize to Tom Pyatt for besmirching his good name

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06-30-2011, 02:44 PM
  #267
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It's not speculation...Both Cammalleri and Gionta admitted that Gomez's trade was part of their decision. But people can't accept it, Gomez trade hasn't always been negative to this team.

Koivu wasn't in the plans anymore. Even if we didn't make any trade to get another center, Koivu wasn't part of the equation anymore. The re-build of the core was pretty much initiated by the idea that Koivu's tenure with the habs brought no results. Signing Koivu again, would've been redudant and a dumb move by Gainey.

And your reasoning has flawed logic. You and others talking as if the signing of Gomez with NY is the reason why Gionta's signing with us had nothing to do with Gomez.

Isn't that speculation?
Yeah, Cammy and Gionta admitted he was part of their decision, just like some francos admits that they just would drool to have the opportunity to play here and when given the chance...they don't. Some will say they admitted it, some others will say they don't. And for the times I saw them admitting it, it was to the question "Did the signing of Scott Gomez made you choose the Habs"....to which I'm sure they would have said "Obviously not, how is this guy good enough to make me want to play here anyway"...Come on....Though you do have the Gionta story that CLEARLY states that AFTER he received the Habs offer and obviously knowing Gomez was part of the team, HE WENT BACK TO LAMORIELLO to see what offer he could have made to him in order for him to stay....Is that a sign of a guy too eager to come here? And everybody knows that the Habs offer was way more than any other offer, and that's the guy who it will make more sense that Gomez could have been a part of his decision based their history together.

Oh and if this organization thought that the Koivu tenue was a fail based on the results when he was playing here, well they're dumber as I thought they were and I'm sure they aren't. Pretty easy to see that Koivu had all the trouble in the world to get the help that Gomez had on his wings and that's almost even if you'd made an all-star team of the wingers Koivu had all these years.

As far as speculations...YES everything is. 'Cause nobody talks, nobody tells us anything so every camp is going at it with purely speculation. Problem is that it's the "Gionta and Cammy are here because of Gomez" as if it was the truth (based on answering a question on Gomez) that started this whole speculation saga....


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06-30-2011, 02:50 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
...tender an offer to richards. i'll still eat a shoe if he signs here though...
Well then, in case he ever does... ----->>


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06-30-2011, 02:55 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
The hole we have to fill is 7 goals 31 assists -15. 48% faceoffs. That's the easiest hole we've ever had to fill.

Desharnais had 8 goals 14 assists -3 in 1/3 the ice time.

And we have $7M to fill it.
right on there are so many guys in this league that could equal that or do better if given the same ice time/pp time and brian gionta on the wing for a lot less money

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06-30-2011, 02:56 PM
  #270
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No, 'cause we didn't trade today's McDo, we traded a prospect we were starting to have doubt about back then. And a bluechip prospect isn't the same thing as an established and overpaid veteran...
Well the doubt was shared by the head scout who from a veteran journalist was pissed off about the trade. Maybe we shoud listen to him....

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I can also make a decent package out of Weber for a top player. What would be the point? Fantasy packages on a forum have never made any trade happen. McDo (and Weber) are valuable, but certainly not valuable enough to be the centerpiece in a trade for a bluechip offensive center.
There are tons of trades that happened in the past that were supposed to be EA Sports trades...Surely, you would not have obtained Kopitar, but you could have kept Koivu 1 year, see their value go higher with that additionnal year and then trade for a better player. I still don't see how Koivu was NOT an option. He was for so many years and yet, just stopped to be. Just like when Pyatt was the most incredible PK'er in the world and a really valuable player and then...not even worth signing.

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what's the point of *****ing about something that is done? we needed centermen right there and then, not in a few years. we got one. unless mcdo can play center, what's the point?
Euh....not sure what your point is. Isn't it what we're doing since the whole Gomez-Cammy-Gionta thing is being talked about...isn't it the past as well? So we desperately needed a centerman, ,cause for some odd reasons Koivu went from hero to garbage, geez, I'm almost afraid to know what Gainey would have done if Sather would have asked for Price...

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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
The fact of the matter is that for players, name recognition and perception is everything. No one around the league thought Saku Koivu was a number one center. Whether that was because he really wasn't or more because he never really had a legitimate first line player on his line (expect for maybe Recchi for a short time before getting injured) that was the impression. Gomez, regardless of what fans think, was a player that was an important part of a Stanley Cup victory and had registered at least 55 points in all but 2 seasons in the NHL playing for strongly defensive minded teams. Not really all that complicated to see why he would have been seen in a better light.
Well I'd have a harder time believing that this new team just acquired a great offensive centerman when a team like the Rangers who were not stacked at the center position, wanted to get rid of him absolutely and were eager enough to do it by acquiring a good prospect d-man (some say that he was a question mark), a guy that could most likely never come back in NA and a washed up winger....I believe those players are able to recognize what a guy has done, what he does and can do in the future. So you say this about Koivu, and you are probably right. He was not seen as a #1 centerman....but I'd REALLY like to know how many players saw and see Gomez as #1 centerman as well....

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06-30-2011, 03:01 PM
  #271
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I watched every game. Enough to know you dont need any special assignment to cover Gomez.
If anything teams don't even bother covering him. They already know his one trick, let him skate in and pick the puck off the boards when his shot goes wide.

I think just about everyone in the league has him figured out by now. I can't imagine his linemates like him too much having to chase the puck down the ice 20 times a game only to end up tired and hemmed in their own zone.

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06-30-2011, 03:03 PM
  #272
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That's all fine and dandy, but what you and many others fail to notice is that Montreal was in a position they were never in before. They had Cap Space others didn't have. Prior to the lockout there were teams who could spend as much or more, in 2009 Montreal was one of the only teams with 20+million at their disposal.

Try to keep up with the times, I don't know if you know, but a CBA was negotiated and a Salary Cap was put in place. What happened in 1999 or 2003 aren't even slightly comparable, neither were other of the previous post lockout years, because the Habs were never before in the driver seat with an advantage over their opponents (cap Space). Had the Habs been tight to the cap and unable to offer premium contracts, neither Cammy or Gionta would be a Hab. Money was the reason and ideal circumstance, not Scott Gomez, ...
What? There's a salary cap? Since when? Well I guess that changes everything, huh?

Just go and look at the deal that have been signed since the lockout. Top players have hardly seen any difference (except for the fact that the maximum they can get is capped). In fact, because of the cap floor, I would say that a lot of players are getting better deals than they would have previously. Especially since they can become UFA's at at a much younger age than before the lockout. The difference is that these players are spread out around the league instead of being mostly one 3-4 teams.
Furthermore, being the only team with 20 million to spend is / was really irrelevant because a team with 7 million to spend on 1-2 players still could have offered Cammer
That same year, Martin Havlat got 30 million (for 6 years) from Minnesota, I believe Hossa got a huge deal from Chicago, the list goes on an on.

My point, and I'll try to make it more clearly this time, is that I don't believe that the fact that the Canadiens offered Cammer maybe 1 million dollars more than he would have gotten elsewhere is the major reason he came here. Particularly when you consider most of that money would have been eaten away in taxes anyways. The Canadiens could not sign a prominent free agent the year after they finished first in the conference and first in the league in scoring. They had to trade a first rounder for Alex Tanguay.

The one difference between summer 2009 and all the other summers since free agency began in the early 1990's (including those after the lockout) was that the Habs acquired a prominent centerman.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
... yet Gainey managed to squander the competitive advantage we had over many other teams that off season, by making the 2nd worst trade in Habs history and the worst trade in post lockout hockey.
I covered this in an earlier post in this thread but how can you so grossly over exaggerate the significance of this trade?
I mean, for how long have you been following the Habs? 10 years?

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06-30-2011, 03:03 PM
  #273
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This thread isn't remotely on topic anymore...............

this Gomez bashing has got to stop.........
where's the bashing? If we all came in here and loved Gomez there would be no posts telling everyone to stop loving him, would their?

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06-30-2011, 03:06 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
There are tons of trades that happened in the past that were supposed to be EA Sports trades...Surely, you would not have obtained Kopitar, but you could have kept Koivu 1 year, see their value go higher with that additionnal year and then trade for a better player. I still don't see how Koivu was NOT an option. He was for so many years and yet, just stopped to be. Just like when Pyatt was the most incredible PK'er in the world and a really valuable player and then...not even worth signing.
Nobody will ever know why Gainey decided Koivu couldn't come back. Maybe he thought Gomez would be a more solid two way player. Maybe he absolutely wanted to change the leadership, and that would have mean not bringing the captain back. Maybe he felt UFA wouldn't come for Koivu (they certainly never did), but would for Gomez. Maybe Koivu himself didn't want to come back. Who knows. But Gainey had the opportunity to observe the room first-hand, has he coached the habs from Carbo departure to the end of the season. And the management had obviously all these years to watch and evaluate Koivu play, and to know what kind of player he was.

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06-30-2011, 03:08 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
Have you ever taken an economics course? Like even in high school? Because the first principle of any business (for-profit or non-profit alike) is to make money. A business can sugarcoat it with other "missions" and stuff like than, but the number one goal is to make money.

Second, if a business wants to make more money, it has to either increase revenues or decrease costs. While the Habs have continually increased ticket prices over the years, if their only interest was to make money, the best way to do that would be to reduce costs (i.e., lower payroll).
The Habs spend to the cap every year.
An argument that they don't spend it wisely would be valid. Your argument that they "only want to make money not win a Cup", sorry to inform you, is not.
Ha ha lecturing me about economics... haha, funny...

I'll start with the obvious one... you didn't get my point at all... I never said they "only want to make money not win a Cup", I said their no1 goal is to make money, not win the cup... if they win the cup while making money they'll be super happy.

Then, it's pretty funny that your trying to teach me I'm wrong while nothing you wrote actually invalidate my point. It's precisely because the habs are a profitable capitalist compagny that their main goal is to make money not win the Cup. Just like the Maple Leafs, they are part of the few teams out there who are profitable... other owners are losing money... yet, these guys seem to win more Cups than the habs and Maple Leafs... why is that ?

Finally, I don't know why you would think that the fact that they spend to the cap each year is a proof that they don't want to maximize profits... as you pointed out, there are other ways to make a lot of money... and they've been pretty good at increasing revenues (not only with tickets prices, btw).

I'll give you another chance to try to invalidate my point... this one doesn't cut it, sorry...

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