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Gomez trade in the works? LEGIT SOURCES ONLY (Part II)

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Old
06-30-2011, 02:10 PM
  #276
HCH
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Originally Posted by GordonGraham View Post
right on there are so many guys in this league that could equal that or do better if given the same ice time/pp time and brian gionta on the wing for a lot less money
Scott Gomez was our #1 center last year if you use even strength and PP ice time as the yardstick. Pleks was our #2 center using the same criteria. The only reason Pleks had more total ice time was because he had 217 minutes of short handed ice time.

I don't know if that is the fault of Gomez or Martin, but when you see a guy with 7 goals and 31 assists getting the majority of the even strength and PP ice time, you have to think there is room for improvement.

Just for the record, Gomez had more than two and a half times the ice time that Desharnais had and more than one and a half time the ice time that Eller had when you count even strength and PP ice time.

But these guys aren't ready and surely couldn't be counted on to fill Gomez's skates

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06-30-2011, 02:11 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
What? There's a salary cap? Since when? Well I guess that changes everything, huh?

Just go and look at the deal that have been signed since the lockout. Top players have hardly seen any difference (except for the fact that the maximum they can get is capped). In fact, because of the cap floor, I would say that a lot of players are getting better deals than they would have previously. Especially since they can become UFA's at at a much younger age than before the lockout. The difference is that these players are spread out around the league instead of being mostly one 3-4 teams.
Furthermore, being the only team with 20 million to spend is / was really irrelevant because a team with 7 million to spend on 1-2 players still could have offered Cammer
That same year, Martin Havlat got 30 million (for 6 years) from Minnesota, I believe Hossa got a huge deal from Chicago, the list goes on an on.

My point, and I'll try to make it more clearly this time, is that I don't believe that the fact that the Canadiens offered Cammer maybe 1 million dollars more than he would have gotten elsewhere is the major reason he came here. Particularly when you consider most of that money would have been eaten away in taxes anyways. The Canadiens could not sign a prominent free agent the year after they finished first in the conference and first in the league in scoring. They had to trade a first rounder for Alex Tanguay.

The one difference between summer 2009 and all the other summers since free agency began in the early 1990's (including those after the lockout) was that the Habs acquired a prominent centerman.



I covered this in an earlier post in this thread but how can you so grossly over exaggerate the significance of this trade?
I mean, for how long have you been following the Habs? 10 years?
What the top players can get wasn't really anything to do with my argument. The argument being made was that the Habs in the 2009 off season were one of a handful of teams that could offer the contracts they did. Giving them an advantage over the rest.

They came here for the money, period. Scott Gomez played no roll in it, sure it probably made Gio feel a little more comfortable, but it was about, Showing me the money.

Aw the old tax argument, millionaires have much trouble sheltering money, don't they?

Name 2 trades worse? We haven't even seen the end of it this debacle yet. To think we gave up McDonach, Higgins, and Valentenko for a downgrade at center along with an additional 4million dollar cap hit. This trade ranks up there with the worst of them.

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06-30-2011, 02:13 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well the doubt was shared by the head scout who from a veteran journalist was pissed off about the trade. Maybe we shoud listen to him....
Timmins is always in love with all his picks. And anyway, he was wrong: McDo turned pro, and the offense never came. He now has made it the NHL (which is always good), it's certainly not on his strong two-way plays. Of the four players we drafted in 2007 year and how made it, McDo would come up 3th or 4th, depending how much you evaluate Weber, while being the highest drafted.

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06-30-2011, 02:13 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Nobody will ever know why Gainey decided Koivu couldn't come back. Maybe he thought Gomez would be a more solid two way player. Maybe he absolutely wanted to change the leadership, and that would have mean not bringing the captain back. Maybe he felt UFA wouldn't come for Koivu (they certainly never did), but would for Gomez. Maybe Koivu himself didn't want to come back. Who knows. But Gainey had the opportunity to observe the room first-hand, has he coached the habs from Carbo departure to the end of the season. And the management had obviously all these years to watch and evaluate Koivu play, and to know what kind of player he was.
But obviously he wasn't in the New York dressing room and didn't know how to evaluate Gomez accurately

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06-30-2011, 02:19 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Quoted for truth...

I couldn't agree more.

The habs no1 goal is to make money not win a Cup. They prefered going the safe way, making sure to get to the playoffs instead of trying for the home run.

But I must say, right now, it's the worst I felt in terms of future hopes in the last 5-7 years.
The best way for an NHL team with a huge market like MTL to make the most money is to win the cup. Every game in the playoffs is money in the owners pocket (assuming they at least break even on the season) as they don't have to pay the players in the post season. How much do the gate receipts/beer/snack sales add up to each game? I would have to say at least 2 million bucks a game in MTL. Think of how much more money they would make by winning the cup! With my made up number, at least 16 million goes into the Molsons coffers if the Habs swept every play off round and if ticket prices stayed the same each game (which we know doesn't happen). In addition to all that loot, think of all the swag they can sell with the 50 different 'Stanley Cup Winning Canadiens' designs. Winning the cup probably ups how much advertising they can sell as well by either increasing ads or increasing prices, after all, everyone wants to be associated with a championship team. The $$$ the Canadiens winning the cup would generate would be enormous!

If the Canadiens only cared about making money they would not even spend to the cap limit every year, let alone attempt to make the playoffs.

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06-30-2011, 02:20 PM
  #281
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Scott Gomez was our #1 center last year if you use even strength and PP ice time as the yardstick. Pleks was our #2 center using the same criteria. The only reason Pleks had more total ice time was because he had 217 minutes of short handed ice time.

I don't know if that is the fault of Gomez or Martin, but when you see a guy with 7 goals and 31 assists getting the majority of the even strength and PP ice time, you have to think there is room for improvement.

Just for the record, Gomez had more than two and a half times the ice time that Desharnais had and more than one and a half time the ice time that Eller had when you count even strength and PP ice time.

But these guys aren't ready and surely couldn't be counted on to fill Gomez's skates
You are wrong about the PP ice time. Check the time on ice per game.
PP
Plekanec 2:55
Gomez 2:42

SH
Plekanec 2:49
Gomez 0:57

ES
Gomez 14:53
Plekanec 14:29
(expected since Plekanec has more ice time on special teams. The shift after the PP or PK Plekanec is going to need rest)

Total
Plekanec 20:14
Gomez 18:33

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06-30-2011, 02:21 PM
  #282
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The average 2nd line center last year scored 44 points with 11 of those coming on the power play. At first glance, Gomez doesn't seem that bad. He picked up 38 points which isn't far off the average but 17 of those points came on the power play.

His stats were padded by the additional PP ice time he picked up over most second line centers and when you to pad your stats to get to 38 points, that is pretty bad. What's even worse is that Gomez ranked 24th in the league for ice time... that is first line minutes.

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06-30-2011, 02:27 PM
  #283
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Plekanec was the #1 center for the Habs by any measure you care to name: icetime, strength of competition, defensive zone starts, you name it. Martin trusts him like no other Hab forward, period.

I think Gomez is unfairly bashed, but Pleky is a rare talent.

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06-30-2011, 02:30 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Timmins is always in love with all his picks. And anyway, he was wrong: McDo turned pro, and the offense never came. He now has made it the NHL (which is always good), it's certainly not on his strong two-way plays. Of the four players we drafted in 2007 year and how made it, McDo would come up 3th or 4th, depending how much you evaluate Weber, while being the highest drafted.
True. He's always in love with his picks when he does them. But the guy isn't stupid, when he sees that somebody is not going to pan out, he's not going to love them anymore....I surely hope that he doesn't love Fischer at this point. True that he envisioned himself as a Chris Chelios. So, I also believe that his offensive side of his game will never materialize, but he's going to be a SOLID defensive d-man with a great transition game. Emelin and McDo might actually share the same career with Emelin being more vicious while McDo might have better defensive instincts. So we drool about having Emelin here....so I would expect us drooling about still having McDo as well.

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06-30-2011, 02:32 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well I'd have a harder time believing that this new team just acquired a great offensive centerman when a team like the Rangers who were not stacked at the center position, wanted to get rid of him absolutely and were eager enough to do it by acquiring a good prospect d-man (some say that he was a question mark), a guy that could most likely never come back in NA and a washed up winger....I believe those players are able to recognize what a guy has done, what he does and can do in the future. So you say this about Koivu, and you are probably right. He was not seen as a #1 centerman....but I'd REALLY like to know how many players saw and see Gomez as #1 centerman as well....
The Flyers just traded Jeff Carter for a good, but not elite, prospect and a very good first rounder. Jeff Carter has scored 30 or more goals 3 times and scored 29 once.
Reports say that Philly has been looking to trade him since February. Reports also say that they (Flyers management) no longer thought they could win a Cup with him. Does that mean Jeff Carter is all of a sudden not a good player?

And referring to the players the Rangers got back in the trade, I don't it's fair to describe them as such in this post, and then hate on the Canadiens for making such a bad deal, in another. Can't really have it both ways.

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06-30-2011, 02:34 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
The average 2nd line center last year scored 44 points with 11 of those coming on the power play. At first glance, Gomez doesn't seem that bad. He picked up 38 points which isn't far off the average but 17 of those points came on the power play.

His stats were padded by the additional PP ice time he picked up over most second line centers and when you to pad your stats to get to 38 points, that is pretty bad. What's even worse is that Gomez ranked 24th in the league for ice time... that is first line minutes.
That's all fine and dandy. It's not his points that I really even care about - it's his lack of defense and vision. He does stupider things with the puck than Kovalev. And he never plays good defense. He was a brutal two-way forward last year. His temper also gets him into penalty trouble - usually at the worst possible time.

If he scored 45 points and was a + player - like I said before, I wouldn't be happy with his contract, but I could deal with it.

But not only is he bringing no offense, but he had the worst +/- on the team by a large margin. A LARGE margin. +/- isn't a great stat to use to compare players on different teams, but players on the same team, it's a good yardstick. And Gomez was terribly defensively last year.

Gomez has 20 ESP yet was a -15, which basically means that not only did he bring no offense, but he brought no defense either. Basically, it was like Pierre Dagenais playing second line centre.

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06-30-2011, 02:39 PM
  #287
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eh...
I turned the page on McDo many moons ago.

Gomez might not be playing up to par, but he is a key contributor to the team that made the final 4's last year, and took the Bruins to an overtime goal from elimination.
An improved Gomer could mean even GREATER contributions from what ultimately is panning out to be a middling defensive prospect, who MAY or MAY NOT yet turn in to anything at all.

Could we have signed Koivu? sure we could have, and yes... I think he was sleighted a bit here.

That being said, we got Gomez, a guy who's won it ALL a few times, and is 5-6 years younger.

It was a pretty fair move. all in all. Granted, we'd be screwed if Plekanec never came in to form.

Finally, we have MORE than covered our tracks with McDo now (a few times over). Think of all those UFA's from 08, and the emergence of Subban, Weber, and Gorges (all very young D-men).

Our prospect field on Defence is still quite strong, and I think he may very well have been swallowed hole if he were to have stayed here.

Believe it or not,

Gomez > McDonough
Even with said contract in hand.

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06-30-2011, 02:45 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
They came here for the money, period. Scott Gomez played no roll in it, sure it probably made Gio feel a little more comfortable, but it was about, Showing me the money.
That is as much speculation as my argument. Although mine has over 15 years of evidence behind it.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Aw the old tax argument, millionaires have much trouble sheltering money, don't they?
Probably not, but at the end of the day, you still come out better off in a place with less taxes (particularly in the US where mortgage payments are tax deductible) than you are in the highest taxed province / state in North America.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Name 2 trades worse? We haven't even seen the end of it this debacle yet. To think we gave up McDonach, Higgins, and Valentenko for a downgrade at center along with an additional 4million dollar cap hit. This trade ranks up there with the worst of them.
Well I'll assume the Roy deal is first, so (in no particular order):

- Ribs
- Carbonneau
- Turgeon (when he was traded away)
- John Leclair, Desjardins
- Chris Chelios (ignoring Savard's name recognition)

And that's just off the top of my head.

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06-30-2011, 02:50 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
The Flyers just traded Jeff Carter for a good, but not elite, prospect and a very good first rounder. Jeff Carter has scored 30 or more goals 3 times and scored 29 once.
Reports say that Philly has been looking to trade him since February. Reports also say that they (Flyers management) no longer thought they could win a Cup with him. Does that mean Jeff Carter is all of a sudden not a good player?

And referring to the players the Rangers got back in the trade, I don't it's fair to describe them as such in this post, and then hate on the Canadiens for making such a bad deal, in another. Can't really have it both ways.
No it doesn't mean Carter is not a good player. It could mean that there are some inside infos we don't have that made that trade inevitable. Also, they take the guess that they have enough depth at that position to fill other positions and might believe a lot in Voracek's capabilities and on what the future draft picks will be given them. Though, in the future, it might mean that Carter has some maturity issues and that he "could" never become the leader that a team could count on. It's all about expecations and guesses. Yet, if he pans out, and if Voracek fails, you can be sure that the Flyers will get an earful of it....which I think every team should be accountable for whatever mistake they make or whatever great move they make as well.

As far as your last paragraph, I hated that trade based on what I thought a guy like McDo could bring to this team and mostly based on WHO we were getting. Now, what I, you or any other in here things is not obviously the way others see it. I responded about the perception is reality theory which in fact is not a bad theory. But if you apply that to the trade itself, perception was that Gomez was no longer wanted despite being acquired by the Rangers has their future top #1 center for years to come for totally unproven players. I don't see how Gionta or Cammy could have known or be able to evaluate McDo's abilities to determine that Gomez was indeed traded for a very good package.

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06-30-2011, 03:09 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
The Flyers just traded Jeff Carter for a good, but not elite, prospect and a very good first rounder. Jeff Carter has scored 30 or more goals 3 times and scored 29 once.
Reports say that Philly has been looking to trade him since February. Reports also say that they (Flyers management) no longer thought they could win a Cup with him. Does that mean Jeff Carter is all of a sudden not a good player?

And referring to the players the Rangers got back in the trade, I don't it's fair to describe them as such in this post, and then hate on the Canadiens for making such a bad deal, in another. Can't really have it both ways.
Carter's lack of playoff production played a large part in that.

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06-30-2011, 03:31 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
That is as much speculation as my argument. Although mine has over 15 years of evidence behind it.



Probably not, but at the end of the day, you still come out better off in a place with less taxes (particularly in the US where mortgage payments are tax deductible) than you are in the highest taxed province / state in North America.



Well I'll assume the Roy deal is first, so (in no particular order):

- Ribs
- Carbonneau
- Turgeon (when he was traded away)
- John Leclair, Desjardins
- Chris Chelios (ignoring Savard's name recognition)

And that's just off the top of my head.
None of which were worse.

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06-30-2011, 03:40 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post

Gomez has 20 ESP yet was a -15, which basically means that not only did he bring no offense, but he brought no defense either. Basically, it was like Pierre Dagenais playing second line centre.

Plekanec 2.36 GAON/60
Gomez 2.32 GAON/60

For a second-line center, Gomez did well defensively.
I dont remember who said it several times (i suppose its MathMan), but he is just doing fine defensively for a second-line center. Im not saying that he's great, but the problem is this number : 1.69 GFON/60.
If his +/- sucks, its not because he's bad defensively, its because he's putrid offensively at ES. Pyatt is the only player to be worse in that area than him i think.
1.69, thats incredibly low. Thats Gill's or Mara's (well, this kind of guy) number usually. Last year, and he was already not playing as well as he could, he was at 2.76 (around 25 points lost)

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06-30-2011, 03:43 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Plekanec 2.36 GAON/60
Gomez 2.32 GAON/60

For a second-line center, Gomez did well defensively.
I dont remember who said it several times (i suppose its MathMan), but he is just doing fine defensively for a second-line center. Im not saying that he's great, but the problem is this number : 1.69 GFON/60.
If his +/- sucks, its not because he's bad defensively, its because he's putrid offensively at ES. Pyatt is the only player to be worse in that area than him i think.
1.69, thats incredibly low. Thats Gill's or Mara's (well, this kind of guy) number usually. Last year, and he was already not playing as well as he could, he was at 2.76 (around 25 points lost)
I agree, it was Gomez' offense not his defense that screwed up his +-.

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06-30-2011, 03:47 PM
  #294
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Gomez made a lot of poor defensive play, i don't remember Plek doing so.

At the end it might just be a feeling bur Gomez looked like he had a very poor defensive season if i rely only on what i saw.

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06-30-2011, 03:48 PM
  #295
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No it doesn't mean Carter is not a good player. It could mean that there are some inside infos we don't have that made that trade inevitable. Also, they take the guess that they have enough depth at that position to fill other positions and might believe a lot in Voracek's capabilities and on what the future draft picks will be given them. Though, in the future, it might mean that Carter has some maturity issues and that he "could" never become the leader that a team could count on. It's all about expecations and guesses. Yet, if he pans out, and if Voracek fails, you can be sure that the Flyers will get an earful of it....which I think every team should be accountable for whatever mistake they make or whatever great move they make as well.

As far as your last paragraph, I hated that trade based on what I thought a guy like McDo could bring to this team and mostly based on WHO we were getting. Now, what I, you or any other in here things is not obviously the way others see it. I responded about the perception is reality theory which in fact is not a bad theory. But if you apply that to the trade itself, perception was that Gomez was no longer wanted despite being acquired by the Rangers has their future top #1 center for years to come for totally unproven players. I don't see how Gionta or Cammy could have known or be able to evaluate McDo's abilities to determine that Gomez was indeed traded for a very good package.
What I meant to say was that just because a player gets traded from a team that does not want him anymore, it does not mean the player is necessarily finished.
I admit that I did not like the deal when I heard McDonagh was going the other way. I really did not like it.
But I strongly disagree that it was bad enough to keep bringing it up and going so far as calling on of the worst in Habs history. McDonagh may never be better than Marc Staal, and the latter will be hard pressed to make the Hall of Fame at this pace IMO. Alors on se calme tout le monde.

Btw, the Bruins traded away a perennial 100 point scorer and Hart trophy winner for nothing essentially and still ended up winning the cup but 5 seasons later. They hadn't even signed Chara, had just brought Bergeron directly from junior to the team (and therefore could not really predict the type of impact he would have), and had not even drafted Kessel, Lucic, or Marchand. So some saying (not necessarily you) that the trade will set the Habs back for several years is a little over dramatic IMO.

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06-30-2011, 03:51 PM
  #296
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None of which were worse.
Well, if you truly think that, there is no point in continuing the discussion with you.
You obviously have your own view on things that I cannot understand.

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06-30-2011, 04:22 PM
  #297
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Oh, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here...

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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
eh...
Gomez might not be playing up to par, but he is a key contributor to the team that made the final 4's last year,
Hey, if we are going to live in the past, I think Halak and even Metropolit might have the same claim to that successful playoff run.

Quote:
Finally, we have MORE than covered our tracks with McDo now (a few times over). Think of all those UFA's from 08, and the emergence of Subban, Weber, and Gorges (all very young D-men).
Think of all the money we wasted, because we had to go out and get other players, instead of letting RM emerge.

Quote:
Our prospect field on Defence is still quite strong, and I think he may very well have been swallowed hole if he were to have stayed here.
So, because we traded RM, it allowed us a chance to fill the gaps it left in our prospect pool? Right, I see the positive spin you've done there...

Quote:
Believe it or not,

Gomez > McDonough
Even with said contract in hand.
Nope, because Gomez restricts the moves you can make, and young mobile blueliners don't.

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06-30-2011, 04:27 PM
  #298
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Oh, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here...



Hey, if we are going to live in the past, I think Halak and even Metropolit might have the same claim to that successful playoff run.



Think of all the money we wasted, because we had to go out and get other players, instead of letting RM emerge.



So, because we traded RM, it allowed us a chance to fill the gaps it left in our prospect pool? Right, I see the positive spin you've done there...



Nope, because Gomez restricts the moves you can make, and young mobile blueliners don't.
Except that the Habs aren't tight in the cap right now, so Gomez *> RM

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06-30-2011, 04:33 PM
  #299
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Ha ha lecturing me about economics... haha, funny...

I'll start with the obvious one... you didn't get my point at all... I never said they "only want to make money not win a Cup", I said their no1 goal is to make money, not win the cup... if they win the cup while making money they'll be super happy.

Then, it's pretty funny that your trying to teach me I'm wrong while nothing you wrote actually invalidate my point. It's precisely because the habs are a profitable capitalist compagny that their main goal is to make money not win the Cup. Just like the Maple Leafs, they are part of the few teams out there who are profitable... other owners are losing money... yet, these guys seem to win more Cups than the habs and Maple Leafs... why is that ?

Finally, I don't know why you would think that the fact that they spend to the cap each year is a proof that they don't want to maximize profits... as you pointed out, there are other ways to make a lot of money... and they've been pretty good at increasing revenues (not only with tickets prices, btw).

I'll give you another chance to try to invalidate my point... this one doesn't cut it, sorry...
Okay, let's try this again. If you are saying that the Canadiens want to make money and win the Cup but that making money is just more important, the truth is that is purely speculative on your part and that really, you'd be just as hard pressed to demonstrate that to be true than me trying to invalidate your point.

But for the sake of discussion, if the no1 goal of the Canadiens was to make money, and winning the Cup was considered a bonus (my words, not yours), then it would make much more business sense for them to take an approach like the Florida Marlins in baseball or the Carolina Hurricanes in hockey: i.e., draft high, get premium prospects, win when they reach their prime, and then let them walk or trade them and start all over again with a new bunch.
That way, they ride the wave of a championship while lowering their costs (and thereby, and this might shock you, allowing them to make more money).

If the Habs took that approach then I would agree with your argument. However, they spend as much as they can (thereby causing them to make less money, regardless of how high their revenues are) to try and win every year. The truth is that the management staffs over the last 18 years have not been great and their player acquisitions have not (for many reasons) worked out well enough to win the Cup.

As for teams that win while losing money, well they lose money because their expenses are more than their revenues. For the Canadiens, they spend as much they are allowed to, but they happen to have very good revenues, so they make money. Not that complicated. Maybe you could tell me how they could spend more money to make it clear to everyone that their n01 goal is to win a cup as you put it.

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06-30-2011, 04:42 PM
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Marchy79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Oh, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here...



Hey, if we are going to live in the past, I think Halak and even Metropolit might have the same claim to that successful playoff run.

Sure they do. You definately can't take anything away from their performances either. However the point is, the entire team got them there. Scotty was a big proponent of the centerman option.

Think of all the money we wasted, because we had to go out and get other players, instead of letting RM emerge.

OK, but we can also regress, take back our trade, and see how we progress from there. In short, RM hasnt warranted so much debate, as his 'waste' has amounted to not much of anything yet. However the Habs made the final 4 for the first time since they won the cup. Either way you put it, you cant go back, because backwards negates the positive performances we have been able to take away since.

So, because we traded RM, it allowed us a chance to fill the gaps it left in our prospect pool? Right, I see the positive spin you've done there...

No, RM was getting passed on the list, and he wasnt even signed with the team yet. There was a lot of emergences, but the biggest surprise to this team was PK Subban from the time he was drafted to now. His projection has been massive. Add to this, Weber, O'Byrne. et. al, McDonough was more a jack of all trades defenceman, who middled his way through a mediocre season in College. For what we DID get (A Champion top 6 centerman, who has a horrible contract, but is still serviceable (to that point)). A top six center, who's a winner, and is in his prime = $$$$$

Nope, because Gomez restricts the moves you can make, and young mobile blueliners don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcv View Post
Except that the Habs aren't tight in the cap right now, so Gomez *> RM
I agree with bcv... we arent experiencing the 'lockdown' as you suggest, and furthermore, it hasnt been entirely roven that he is untradeable.

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