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Old
06-28-2011, 02:46 AM
  #1
Sverra
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overrating

Just wanted to know, if you guys only follows swiss prospects, or if you also follows prospects in sweden, finland, us college, chl ?

Because imo swiss fans tend to overrate their players, they see a young gun cracking up the line-up of a nla team and simply be that, they think this has to be one of the top prospects.
But that's not the way it goes. Of course the NLA is a good league these days, but it's still an other playstyle plus normaly the young gun is centered by a leading mature or at least a solid defense, so for me they haven't prouven anything, they aren't a top prospect simply by playing in nla.
Not that there is no future, I also like the swiss prospects escpialy when the come over early like sbisa, nino, bärtschi... (also for those were it didn't worked out well like jörg, berger...) they prouve to me that want to do it... they are normaly hard-worker, which not every swiss is. Often the they try one year in NA with 25m..and if it's not cool, then they are going back.
Of course sometimes, like for Josi it was good to play some years in Switzerland... but in general I think a lot of people only thinks, he's good in nla so he has to be great in ahl and then crack the nhl, but this isn't the case.
Also other prospects are there, form all over the world, they propably also played mature hockey before in other leagues, or they played chl, us college league (which sometimes is more physically than our mature leagues)


Look at Sprunger, good wing but only if teammates working for him.
Then look at Hofman / Pestoni or even Froideveaux, they are taking leadership, they are the reason why the line plays well... they are good prospects, but hell in 95% they will not be ready to go over and just explode over there.
They have to prouve them in training camp, junior or ahl league...

n.b. it's a bit diffrent for goalies
just my opinion. coming in peace

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06-28-2011, 02:50 PM
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torero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacurse View Post
Just wanted to know, if you guys only follows swiss prospects, or if you also follows prospects in sweden, finland, us college, chl ?

Because imo swiss fans tend to overrate their players, they see a young gun cracking up the line-up of a nla team and simply be that, they think this has to be one of the top prospects.
But that's not the way it goes. Of course the NLA is a good league these days, but it's still an other playstyle plus normaly the young gun is centered by a leading mature or at least a solid defense, so for me they haven't prouven anything, they aren't a top prospect simply by playing in nla.
Not that there is no future, I also like the swiss prospects escpialy when the come over early like sbisa, nino, bärtschi... (also for those were it didn't worked out well like jörg, berger...) they prouve to me that want to do it... they are normaly hard-worker, which not every swiss is. Often the they try one year in NA with 25m..and if it's not cool, then they are going back.
Of course sometimes, like for Josi it was good to play some years in Switzerland... but in general I think a lot of people only thinks, he's good in nla so he has to be great in ahl and then crack the nhl, but this isn't the case.
Also other prospects are there, form all over the world, they propably also played mature hockey before in other leagues, or they played chl, us college league (which sometimes is more physically than our mature leagues)


Look at Sprunger, good wing but only if teammates working for him.
Then look at Hofman / Pestoni or even Froideveaux, they are taking leadership, they are the reason why the line plays well... they are good prospects, but hell in 95% they will not be ready to go over and just explode over there.
They have to prouve them in training camp, junior or ahl league...

n.b. it's a bit diffrent for goalies
just my opinion. coming in peace
You come in peace ... and its good like that because we are a country promoting peace worldwide

We know very well that their is a big difference in the game between NA and NLA.

The rink size has many impacts like more dogstyle battle, less time to aim when shooting, more physical, faster ... as a result players have to adjust. We agree on that. (i guess)

Since we see them with great success here, and since we see our national team almost matching all star team ... we imagine they can replicate what they do at home abroad (in NA). (last year exclusively LNA players beat a decent Canada (top stars were still in playoffs) with still canadian stars from NHL !!) Russia, ... .

We have to say that we feel that sometimes swiss players are being snobed or mobbed. (Ambuhl was a typical case ! were he was much better than his linemates in AHL yet he was kept on the 3rd or even 4th line ... in parallel during this time he was doing well agains all star teams for the olympic games in Vancouver !!), Tobias Stephan was treated badly, the chance wasn't given to Blindenbacher as well, Roman Wick didn't benefit of good circumstances and was ignored and put on low lines in AHL while matching the olympic canadian team in Vancouver again!!)

Coaches in NA would tend to have a system and place the players that best fit the model, while coaches in Switzerland do what they can with what they have. This is a more normal approach for us. In NA the player has to prove what he is worth, and then he will be put in a position on the system. Therefore the player's skills are optimized in Switzerland, in NA, since they are not optimized (unless a superstar) they have to fill up a role ... hence they play less well.

Their are plenty of things that by triangulation you can question.

I believe that the NA hockey overrates its logic and way of functioning. Relies much too heavily on conventional wisdom and group thinking. A measure for that would be that per dollar spent on a roster they don't have the best teams !! another yardstick would be that in comparaison of the number of players available (AHL + NHL + CHL + ...) their team don't exploit the best out what they have !!

Then we love our guys and root for them. Maybe overrating them but who doesn't overrate his childrens ?

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06-29-2011, 02:09 AM
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I'm not sure what your point is, of course some posters overrates some players, this will happen in any discussion about sports, but the opinions over here are pretty reasonable.

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06-29-2011, 04:29 AM
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I don't get your point neither. Of course, there are some posters thinking we are the best, but mostly I think it's the opposite. Streit is a good example for an underrated player. If he was canadian, they'd call him a superstar.
I don't think it's a matter of nationality, it's much more individual.
While I think Wick or Sprunger are overrated okbecause of their stats here, I see some other examples
too.
I'm maybe overrating Genoni, because he is a dominant goalie like Hiller was. NHL "experts" only see his size and have no interests on him.

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06-29-2011, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
You come in peace ... and its good like that because we are a country promoting peace worldwide

We know very well that their is a big difference in the game between NA and NLA.

The rink size has many impacts like more dogstyle battle, less time to aim when shooting, more physical, faster ... as a result players have to adjust. We agree on that. (i guess)

Since we see them with great success here, and since we see our national team almost matching all star team ... we imagine they can replicate what they do at home abroad (in NA). (last year exclusively LNA players beat a decent Canada (top stars were still in playoffs) with still canadian stars from NHL !!) Russia, ... .

We have to say that we feel that sometimes swiss players are being snobed or mobbed. (Ambuhl was a typical case ! were he was much better than his linemates in AHL yet he was kept on the 3rd or even 4th line ... in parallel during this time he was doing well agains all star teams for the olympic games in Vancouver !!), Tobias Stephan was treated badly, the chance wasn't given to Blindenbacher as well, Roman Wick didn't benefit of good circumstances and was ignored and put on low lines in AHL while matching the olympic canadian team in Vancouver again!!)

Coaches in NA would tend to have a system and place the players that best fit the model, while coaches in Switzerland do what they can with what they have. This is a more normal approach for us. In NA the player has to prove what he is worth, and then he will be put in a position on the system. Therefore the player's skills are optimized in Switzerland, in NA, since they are not optimized (unless a superstar) they have to fill up a role ... hence they play less well.

Their are plenty of things that by triangulation you can question.

I believe that the NA hockey overrates its logic and way of functioning. Relies much too heavily on conventional wisdom and group thinking. A measure for that would be that per dollar spent on a roster they don't have the best teams !! another yardstick would be that in comparaison of the number of players available (AHL + NHL + CHL + ...) their team don't exploit the best out what they have !!

Then we love our guys and root for them. Maybe overrating them but who doesn't overrate his childrens ?
thanks for your statement
yes of course it's natural in some way.
But by reading posts from swiss in this forum, it was a little bit like... they were sheppish all time. But yeah, you're right...
And I love Switzerland

@ stv11 & swissexpert... ok I am deviated. Generaly I wanted to know if you guys also looks at other prospects in other leagues. Because I felt like you're statments tend to be one-sided. But as torero said, it's natural

about Genoni: you're right here, some "experts" looks at size too much. Same case for Conz.


Last edited by Sverra: 06-29-2011 at 05:09 AM. Reason: Genoni
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Old
06-29-2011, 10:01 AM
  #6
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To answer your question, I follow other leagues and if prospect do well I will notice, but I don't go out of my way to look at a potential 4th round pick when there are better players on the ice.

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06-30-2011, 05:38 PM
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torero
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As you can see, my landsmen Swissexpert and stv11 are reasonable.

I am a bit more on the emotional side ... and therefore (once i was arguing that Gerber was a top 10 NHL goalie ) so i am definitely on the positive side. That is one thing.
(it is not a Swiss feature to boast !! rather the opposite !)
And in my case i look at no other prospect than the swiss ones. I watch universal swiss players and foreign stars + exceptions ... Tootoo or Gomez, Rypien or ...

Yet that Swiss players aren't fairly treated in NA. That is another real thing on which, to some very few exceptions, most of us (swiss posters) agree.

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07-01-2011, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
I am a bit more on the emotional side ... and therefore (once i was arguing that Gerber was a top 10 NHL goalie ) so i am definitely on the positive side. That is one thing.
If that was during the 2005-06 season, this is a reasonable thing to argue. If not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
Yet that Swiss players aren't fairly treated in NA. That is another real thing on which, to some very few exceptions, most of us (swiss posters) agree.
Rather than unfair treatment, I think it has more to do with the different team building philosophy which results in the same player being rated differently. First there is an overemphasis of size (this probably played a part in Ambühl's lack of success), then the league structure (entry draft, no relegation) allows teams not to be as competitive as possible and to play a guy based on potential rather current ability (see Wick or Blindenbacher), and the coaching philosophy in North America doesn't stray much from the scoring line-scoring line-checking line-energy line system, which can allow some players to succeed mostly thanks to one particular skill while some complete guys stay in the minor.

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07-01-2011, 04:27 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stv11 View Post
Rather than unfair treatment, I think it has more to do with the different team building philosophy which results in the same player being rated differently. First there is an overemphasis of size (this probably played a part in Ambühl's lack of success), then the league structure (entry draft, no relegation) allows teams not to be as competitive as possible and to play a guy based on potential rather current ability (see Wick or Blindenbacher), and the coaching philosophy in North America doesn't stray much from the scoring line-scoring line-checking line-energy line system, which can allow some players to succeed mostly thanks to one particular skill while some complete guys stay in the minor.
Partly ... ok, then you have the great "conventional wisdom" that NA have that does the rest.
As long as you stay in the lines of "conventional wisdom", you will be considered as a regular tribes member. Step out of these lines and you will be a "weirdo". From their on, you can be fired at any time. Then the guys in the coaching structure and in the organization are the fruit of this "selection". In other words tough guys in this line of conduct. (Darwin's principles make sure that the decision takers have these lines of thought )

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