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07-02-2011, 12:04 PM
  #26
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Sather has done a bangup job this offseason so far. Scary to say that, but really really good...if he can pull one of his magic trades out of his hat now it'll be even better.

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07-02-2011, 12:04 PM
  #27
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So you think it's good management to paint yourself into the corner, leave yourself with one out, and essentially get lucky?

Boy, you should never bring any significant amount of money to a poker table.

Yeah, the good thing happened. You're talking about it as if Sather planned it all along this way. He got lucky that Richards was a free agent this season. He got lucky that Richards has a relationship with Tortorella. And he damn well lucked out in the sense that he runs the team in the most desirable location and with the most money to toss around. Because if it wasn't for the neverending money, Redden would still be here, and Richards would not.
It's not getting lucky. Everyone knew when Richards would be a free agent the moment he signed his last contract. Everyone knew the relationship he had with Torts before we had a relationship with Torts. Everyone knew the organization's location and financial situation.

These are all givens. Your argument boils down to if Glen Sather were GM of some team that wasn't the Rangers, but he acted as if it was the Rangers he wouldn't be good. That's not what we're talking about. He is GM of the Rangers, and so he gets all the benefits of being GM of the Rangers. If he didn't take advantage of those things he'd be doing a bad job. He shouldn't run the team like we're the Isles, we're not the Isles. You can't compare being GM of the Rangers to being GM of the isles, you face completely different circumstances coming in.

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07-02-2011, 12:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
It's not getting lucky. Everyone knew when Richards would be a free agent the moment he signed his last contract. Sather knew the relationship he had with Torts before we had a relationship with Torts. He knew the organization's location and financial situation before he became GM.
So, let's think about these two ideas: first, he knew about all of this team's benefits, but for some reason, until very recently, he couldn't figure out how to apply them correctly, and two, he hired John Tortorella because he knew that would get him Richards?

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These are all givens. Your argument boils down to if Glen Sather were GM of some team that wasn't the Rangers, but he acted as if it was the Rangers he wouldn't be good. That's not what we're talking about. He is GM of the Rangers, and so he gets all the benefits of being GM of the Rangers. If he didn't take advantage of those things he'd be doing a bad job. He shouldn't run the team like we're the Isles, we're not the Isles. You can't compare being GM of the Rangers to being GM of the isles, you face completely different circumstances coming in.
No, that's not my argument. My argument is that Glen Sather has, in the last 5 years, made some of the worst management decisions in the history of modern major professional team sports and put his team in the position where, depending on the outcome of one specific event, the franchise could be destined to continue being irrelevant as it has been for virtually his entire tenure with the club. Just because he emerged from this one event seemingly successful does not change the fact that simply putting the franchise in such a position, where the team's fate for the foreseeable future would be determined by one thing, is not good management.

I have been talking up Richards to the Rangers since October, if not earlier. Why? Not because I am positive that it will result in a Cup for the Rangers (although I do like Richards a great deal), but because with the mismanagement of Glen Sather, this was literally the only possibility for this team to not be mediocre. That is not a good job, in my opinion. Just because he has the luxury of burying his awful mistakes in the minors doesn't change the fact that the Wade Redden contract is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my entire life as a sports fan. Just because Marian Gaborik is a good player doesn't change the fact that signing him was not the smartest possible way to spend that money, because patience could have yielded a better, more consistent player who doesn't cause you to hold your breath everytime he gets touched by an opposing player.

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07-02-2011, 12:19 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
So, let's think about these two ideas: first, he knew about all of this team's benefits, but for some reason, until very recently, he couldn't figure out how to apply them correctly, and two, he hired John Tortorella because he knew that would get him Richards?



No, that's not my argument. My argument is that Glen Sather has, in the last 5 years, made some of the worst management decisions in the history of modern major professional team sports and put his team in the position where, depending on the outcome of one specific event, the franchise could be destined to continue being irrelevant as it has been for virtually his entire tenure with the club. Just because he emerged from this one event seemingly successful does not change the fact that simply putting the franchise in such a position, where the team's fate for the foreseeable future would be determined by one thing, is not good management.

I have been talking up Richards to the Rangers since October, if not earlier. Why? Not because I am positive that it will result in a Cup for the Rangers (although I do like Richards a great deal), but because with the mismanagement of Glen Sather, this was literally the only possibility for this team to not be mediocre. That is not a good job, in my opinion. Just because he has the luxury of burying his awful mistakes in the minors doesn't change the fact that the Wade Redden contract is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my entire life as a sports fan. Just because Marian Gaborik is a good player doesn't change the fact that signing him was not the smartest possible way to spend that money, because patience could have yielded a better, more consistent player who doesn't cause you to hold your breath everytime he gets touched by an opposing player.
So I left out that part of your argument is basically the difference between success and failure is small. Yeah, that's true for any team. If the Pens didn't get the chance to draft Crosby and then Malkin way back when now, they'd still suck. But they did. It's pointless to say they're poorly constructed because they could have easily missed out on those players. Just like in the actual games, it doesn't matter if you win by 1 or you win by 10 it counts the same in the standings. Or to use the old baseball expression about a bloop hit, "It looks like a line drive in the box score."

The Bruins just won the cup in large part because they took a flyer on an old goalie who never managed to cut it in the NHL until he exploded with them at an age goalies don't usually find their game. You think on the streets of Boston they're upset they needed that to happen to win?

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07-02-2011, 12:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
His management created a circumstance by which the only chance that this team had at competing any time soon was to be able to sign this one free agent (who is not without risks), and even then, it is the presence of the coach that probably played the biggest factor in the player coming here. Had the signing not happened, this team would have been ****ed. That's a good job? We could have had Kovalchuk if we showed restraint for one year, but instead we got a worse and injury prone player in Gaborik, too. If it wasn't for Dolan's moneybags, Redden would still be a problem.

Hey, anything is better than giving out the worst contracts in NHL history (which we are only 3-4 years removed from). Good job? At best, you can say he's finally learning how to use the monumental advantages that he has over virtually every other team. But he certainly hasn't gone above and beyond that.

By that you mean we could have had Kovalchuk if we threw out $100 million to meet his demand of being the "$100 million man"? According to an Agent, that was what Kovie's agent had told owners around the league, how important it was for Kovie to have a $100 mil contract,that was his sticking point. How is that somehow a better scenario than what happened here?

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07-02-2011, 12:32 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
So I left out that part of your argument is basically the difference between success and failure is small. Yeah, that's true for any team. If the Pens didn't get the chance to draft Crosby and then Malkin way back when now, they'd still suck. But they did. It's pointless to say they're poorly constructed because they could have easily missed out on those players. Just like in the actual games, it doesn't matter if you win by 1 or you win by 10 it counts the same in the standings. Or to use the old baseball expression about a bloop hit, "It looks like a line drive in the box score."

The Bruins just won the cup in large part because they took a flyer on an old goalie who never managed to cut it in the NHL until he exploded with them at an age goalies don't usually find their game. You think on the streets of Boston they're upset they needed that to happen to win?
I don't understand your point. If I'm grading the performance of Ray Shero or Peter Chiarelli, I'm not going to do so based on the Penguins drafting of Crosby/Malkin. I'm not doing so based on the acquisition of Tim Thomas. That would be like giving Sather credit for the 7th round selection of Lundqvist that happened 2 months after Sather was hired.

You give credit to Shero and Chiarelli for the consistent, smart decisions that they made that helped surround the great players on their team with the right players needed to win. They've made the right signings, the right trades, the right coaching moves. And I don't mean the giant extremely fortunate ripoffs like the Gomez trade. I mean the shrewd, smart, non-mega moves that built a team.

But then again, neither Shero or Chiarelli are the best GMs in the league in my book, because Shero had Crosby and Malkin to work with. Chiarelli had Chara to work with, who was going to sign with Boston for certain. The best GM in this league is David Poile, AFAIC, because he consistently does the most with the least. Sather has every advantage, and to this date, he has done nothing. And with all of those advantages, he put his franchise in a position where their entire future hinged on one decision that wasn't even in his hands. I don't think that is the work of someone who is a good manager.

We can keep going around in circles, but the fact of the matter is, we are now past a decade of this man's tenure here, and it has taken him 11 years to fill the most important position on a hockey team: first line center. That simple fact by itself tells you everything you need to know about the job he has done. I'm very pleased we got Richards, and the drafting has improved, but there hasn't been an off-season yet (until this one, so far) where he didn't make at least one incredibly stupid decision.

If I owned a team, I would never want the person running it to place it in a position where everything hinged on one possible scenario.

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07-02-2011, 12:34 PM
  #32
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Is he still the schmuck from 5 years ago? Probably not, he as improved significantly.

However, I am not getting the annointing oil out anytime soon. Sather still has a long way to go and a lot of ground to make up for his monumentally bad performance in prior years.

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07-02-2011, 12:36 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
By that you mean we could have had Kovalchuk if we threw out $100 million to meet his demand of being the "$100 million man"? According to an Agent, that was what Kovie's agent had told owners around the league, how important it was for Kovie to have a $100 mil contract,that was his sticking point. How is that somehow a better scenario than what happened here?
The end result is that the Devils have one of the best, most consistent offensive players in the league on what essentially amounts to being a bargain of a cap hit, even with the ridiculous and extremely unfair penalties imposed on them by the league. I'm not one to spread rumors or speculation, but I happen to believe with good reason that if the Rangers were capable of offering him the same contract, he'd be a Ranger today.

And, yes, I would not hesitate for a moment to take Kovalchuk and his contract instead of Gaborik and his. Maybe he's a *********, maybe he's selfish. Don't care. Kovalchuk is a significantly better player and is not an injury concern. Most importantly, it is foolish to believe that he will stay with the Devils for the duration of his contract. Once he reaches a certain age, he'll just go to Russia and the Devils won't have to deal with his cap hit at a point where he is no longer a desirable fit.

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07-02-2011, 12:38 PM
  #34
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I fully endorse the Richards signing, but if he announced tomorrow he was stepping down, I'd be extremely happy.

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07-02-2011, 12:45 PM
  #35
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When will his team make it past the second round? They haven't sniffed the Finals. 10 years of Sather and still waiting. Like so many years, his best moment tends to come in July after a big signing.

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07-02-2011, 12:48 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
The end result is that the Devils have one of the best, most consistent offensive players in the league on what essentially amounts to being a bargain of a cap hit, even with the ridiculous and extremely unfair penalties imposed on them by the league. I'm not one to spread rumors or speculation, but I happen to believe with good reason that if the Rangers were capable of offering him the same contract, he'd be a Ranger today.

And, yes, I would not hesitate for a moment to take Kovalchuk and his contract instead of Gaborik and his. Maybe he's a *********, maybe he's selfish. Don't care. Kovalchuk is a significantly better player and is not an injury concern. Most importantly, it is foolish to believe that he will stay with the Devils for the duration of his contract. Once he reaches a certain age, he'll just go to Russia and the Devils won't have to deal with his cap hit at a point where he is no longer a desirable fit.
But that still puts Sather under this umbrella:

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At best, you can say he's finally learning how to use the monumental advantages that he has over virtually every other team. But he certainly hasn't gone above and beyond that.

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07-02-2011, 12:52 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
But that still puts Sather under this umbrella:
But he didn't even do that. Instead, he blew his load way too early. He made the wrong decision.

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07-02-2011, 01:09 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
But he didn't even do that. Instead, he blew his load way too early. He made the wrong decision.
I'm just saying, given the circumstances, it doesn't sound like you really have an issue with his modus operandi, more so with him not landing a particular preferred player as opposed to others.

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07-02-2011, 01:12 PM
  #39
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Have to rain on the parade. In terms of on-ice results, he remains a disaster.

In July, it is easy to look like a success. I did not want Richards because of the concussion issue. If that pops up again, between his contract and the health issues of Gaborik, it seems a tad early to laud someone whose results to date are tragically bad.

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07-02-2011, 01:13 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I'm just saying, given the circumstances, t doesn't sound like you really have an issue with his modus operandi, more so with him not landing a particular preferred player as opposed to others.
I'm saying that IF that is his modus operandi, then until very recently, he hasn't even done a good job of doing that. Yes, he is cognizant of the fact that he has a lot of money to spend, but he went out and signed players that made no sense. If you know hockey at all, and I mean the actual game, what actually happens on the ice, then there is no possible reason to believe that any of the Redden, Gomez, Drury, or Kotalik signings were good ideas. You literally have to make a concerted effort to not watch footage of Redden to believe that that made sense.

Gaborik isn't as bad a signing as any of those players, but again, if you're going to spend money, make it count. Get the right guys. Can you imagine our team if we had Kovalchuk instead of Gaborik? It wouldn't have hampered our ability to get Richards. Heck, we'd have an extra million in cap space.

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07-02-2011, 01:14 PM
  #41
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First of all I just want to say that I believe this Brad Richards signing is going to turn out to be a great piece of business. I'm amazed the Rangers were able to get a player of that caliber at that price. However, a good July doesn't change how I feel about a guy who has been at the helm of a team that has seen 5 playoff appearances and a whopping 2 playoff series wins in 10 seasons. The team hasn't played a game yet this year; that's no time to change my opinion on Glen Sather. I will revise my opinion if and only if the Rangers have a good post-season.

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07-02-2011, 01:17 PM
  #42
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I'm saying that IF that is his modus operandi, then until very recently, he hasn't even done a good job of doing that. Yes, he is cognizant of the fact that he has a lot of money to spend, but he went out and signed players that made no sense. If you know hockey at all, and I mean the actual game, what actually happens on the ice, then there is no possible reason to believe that any of the Redden, Gomez, Drury, or Kotalik signings were good ideas. You literally have to make a concerted effort to not watch footage of Redden to believe that that made sense.

Gaborik isn't as bad a signing as any of those players, but again, if you're going to spend money, make it count. Get the right guys. Can you imagine our team if we had Kovalchuk instead of Gaborik? It wouldn't have hampered our ability to get Richards. Heck, we'd have an extra million in cap space.
I loathed those signings (minus Gaborik's) as much as anyone. But in your earlier post it sounded like you were criticizing Sather for using his capital advantage to land a player, but when you brought up Kovalchuk, I thought it was sending mixed signals, because that's a player demanded a ludicrous contract that only a handful of teams in the league could have afforded. I'm glad we didn't land Kovalchuk given the nature of his demands, I think he's a self-centered primadonna. I look forward to defeating him and the Devils in the coming years. Rangers > Devils, both now and in the coming years.


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07-02-2011, 01:32 PM
  #43
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we still need a dman, we need to sign cally/dubi/anisimov/possibly boyle and fill in another spot lets see what happens
No, we do not. Either MDZ, Kundratek or Vally will be able to get the job done as a #6 defenseman.

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07-02-2011, 01:35 PM
  #44
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steady as she goes. Things are looking up. We have a nice group of Forwards building up. Good young D that should get better, Fantastic G and a real nice minor league system

1 step at a time. If they can even just go with this group then rent a Winger at the deadline we should look good

This.

We are on the verge of contention on paper, but games are not played on paper. Let's see how the team fares from now until the All Star break. If we are looking good, then we should acquire a LW closer to the trading deadline.

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07-02-2011, 01:43 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I loathed those signings (minus Gaborik's) as much as anyone. But in your earlier post it sounded like you were criticizing Sather for using his capital advantage to land a player, but when you brought up Kovalchuk, I thought it was sending mixed signals, because that's a player demanded a ludicrous contract that only a handful of teams in the league could have afforded. I'm glad we didn't land Kovalchuk given the nature of his demands, I think he's a self-centered primadonna. I look forward to defeating him and the Devils in the coming years. Rangers > Devils, both now and in the coming years.
I'm criticizing Sather for not even being able to use his capital advantage properly much of the time. And if you want to dislike Kovalchuk for being a self-centered primadonna, then you surely must hold similar sentiments toward Jagr.

I also hope that we crush the Devils, but that won't change my opinion about Kovalchuk being a much better player than Gaborik. Gaborik is a smallish, one-dimensional player who has trouble generating offense all on his own. Kovalchuk is a big, strong, bull of a player that can beat almost any player in the NHL in a one-on-one situation and can score 40 goals regardless of style of play or strength of linemates. He has a slapper, he has a wrister, he has a killer one-timer. He can beat you in a lot more ways than Gaborik can, and he's a lot harder to get off the puck. He's also much less of a concern, in terms of injury history.

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07-02-2011, 01:49 PM
  #46
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I'm criticizing Sather for not even being able to use his capital advantage properly much of the time. And if you want to dislike Kovalchuk for being a self-centered primadonna, then you surely must hold similar sentiments toward Jagr.
I have mixed feelings about Jagr for sure... I respect how he performed for the Rangers and helped re-shape our team, but I can't say he was ever one of my favorite players, and I sometimes question his actions in terms of the business end of things... Definitely not a team-oriented type of guy.

Quote:
I also hope that we crush the Devils, but that won't change my opinion about Kovalchuk being a much better player than Gaborik. Gaborik is a smallish, one-dimensional player who has trouble generating offense all on his own. Kovalchuk is a big, strong, bull of a player that can beat almost any player in the NHL in a one-on-one situation and can score 40 goals regardless of style of play or strength of linemates. He has a slapper, he has a wrister, he has a killer one-timer. He can beat you in a lot more ways than Gaborik can, and he's a lot harder to get off the puck. He's also much less of a concern, in terms of injury history.
Kovalchuk is better than Gaborik no doubt, but there is no guarantee he even would have signed here had we not signed Gaborik.... You think Sather would have offered a 17 year deal to get him his $100 mil? I don't.... Also, can't imagine Kovalchuk would have wanted to share a lockerroom with Sean Avery and I especially can't imagine he would have wanted to play for a coach like Tortorella who would be ripping him on the bench when he inevitably misses his defensive coverages.

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07-02-2011, 01:53 PM
  #47
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we should have signed Kovalchuk last off season to the deal the Devils gave him, or something similar.

then our top line would be Kovalchuk - Richards - Gaborik.

Best top line in the NHL.

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07-02-2011, 02:04 PM
  #48
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we should have signed Kovalchuk last off season to the deal the Devils gave him, or something similar.

then our top line would be Kovalchuk - Richards - Gaborik.

Best top line in the NHL.
We could not have afforded to sign Kovalchuk with Drury on the books for 2 remaining years and Redden's summer cap hit.... Plus we would not be able to re-sign all our UFA's this summer if we were spending $21 mil+ on those 3 forwards.

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07-02-2011, 02:09 PM
  #49
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I still want him gone

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07-02-2011, 02:19 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miamipuck View Post
Is he still the schmuck from 5 years ago? Probably not, he as improved significantly.

However, I am not getting the annointing oil out anytime soon. Sather still has a long way to go and a lot of ground to make up for his monumentally bad performance in prior years.
Bingo. Long way to go before I consider him anything but poor overall.

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