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How does Richards compare to other elite centers?

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Old
07-02-2011, 10:27 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
+/- is garbage. Richards isn't a stellar defensive player, we know this. But to say he's not as good as people are saying because of his +/- is ill-advised.
How are we supposed to be a "cup contender" if our top line with 18 million dollars in cap isn't expected to outproduce the opponent at even strength. Doesn't sound like a winning formula.

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07-02-2011, 10:28 PM
  #52
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Oh man, another +/- debate?

Marek *** Malik had seasons of +30s with the Rangers. Was he a good defenseman?? Hell no

+/- is so overrated.

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07-02-2011, 10:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by rangersfan30 View Post
Spot on

So glad we have him

Sting

How would your list differ if you were to rank the #1 centers on who would be the best in a playoff situation?
I'm not much of a believer in labels like "choker." I don't think of the Sedins as bad playoff perfomers. They lost in game 7 of the Cup Finals, and their performances are not going to diminish my desire to see them on my team, for example. My list wouldn't change much, other than to maybe take Sedin down a couple of spots, take Thornton down a couple of spots, and raise Richards by a couple.

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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
I'm not saying Richards is bad. I'm not saying Richards was a bad signing. Richards is fantastic. And he was a great signing. But guess what, there is a reason why Staal makes 8.25 million and he doesn't get slack for it. It's because Staal is one of the few franchise players in the league. Richards you can say is a star, but hes not a franchise player.
LOL. The reason Staal makes 8.25 million is that wildly overpaying him was the only way that the Hurricanes were going to ensure that he signed a long term contract extension with them, and he had extra leverage because they were coming off of the Cup win in '06. No one in their right mind would say that Staal is not overpaid. If Richards is not a franchise player, than Staal certainly isn't, either.

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07-02-2011, 10:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Draft Guru View Post
Oh man, another +/- debate?

Marek *** Malik had seasons of +30s with the Rangers. Was he a good defenseman?? Hell no

+/- is so overrated.
That doesn't mean he wasn't on the ice for 30 more goals for than against at even strength. He was and that's what counts.

What I'm being told is that it doesn't matter if Richards (and Gaborik I presume) have negative +/- because they will put up points. Tell that to Anaheims top line, or Pitt, or Wash. They'll laugh.

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07-02-2011, 10:33 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Draft Guru View Post
Oh man, another +/- debate?

Marek *** Malik had seasons of +30s with the Rangers. Was he a good defenseman?? Hell no

+/- is so overrated.
Will it be overrated if he is a big minus on the Rangers?

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07-02-2011, 10:36 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
That doesn't mean he wasn't on the ice for 30 more goals for than against at even strength. He was and that's what counts.

What I'm being told is that it doesn't matter if Richards (and Gaborik I presume) have negative +/- because they will put up points. Tell that to Anaheims top line, or Pitt, or Wash. They'll laugh.
Lidstrom won the Norris with a -1 rating.

Kesler finished 2nd in Selke votes in 2010 with a -1 rating.

Perry won the Hart with a +/- that was 8 better than Richards' this season.

It really isn't a big deal.

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07-02-2011, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'm not much of a believer in labels like "choker." I don't think of the Sedins as bad playoff perfomers. They lost in game 7 of the Cup Finals, and their performances are not going to diminish my desire to see them on my team, for example. My list wouldn't change much, other than to maybe take Sedin down a couple of spots, take Thornton down a couple of spots, and raise Richards by a couple.
.
Thanks

I am a firm believer mentality sets the top performers in any sport apart from the rest so i guess i was sort of asking in a roundabout way about Richards in that sense, His Conn Smythe propbably answers my question.

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07-02-2011, 10:39 PM
  #58
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In regards to Thornton, he had an excellent 2011 playoffs. He was my Conn Smythe favorite up until the Sharks got knocked out.

Sedin also was better than given credit for; but still not as good as he should have been.

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07-02-2011, 11:40 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
I fail to see how barely breaking a ppg, hitting a ppg, or barely missing a ppg in each season is some sort of standard for comparing two of the leagues best players. If one batter hits .302, . 304, .305 is he better than a batter who hits .306, .305, .298 because the first guy has more .300 seasons?

I'm not saying Richards is bad. I'm not saying Richards was a bad signing. Richards is fantastic. And he was a great signing. But guess what, there is a reason why Staal makes 8.25 million and he doesn't get slack for it. It's because Staal is one of the few franchise players in the league. Richards you can say is a star, but hes not a franchise player.

edit: I just noticed the ridiculous spin job you tried to pull. You for some absurd reason subtract Staal's 100 point season but you gave Richards credit for getting a ppg in that season. Nice maneuvering there. Then, you also miscounted cause Staal has two ppg seasons besides the season you decided to eliminate (3 total).
Not a baseball fan, don't get the analogy. But I did miss Staal's other 70 pt in 70 games season. Not a spin, a simple oversight. Actually, their PPG since the lockout is nearly identical. They are a different kind of player. I would argue that Richards is more valuable to NYR as an elite playmaker than Staal as a power forward/sniper. Also, his cap hit makes him a better value, since their production is extremely similar.

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07-03-2011, 01:03 AM
  #60
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Historically, I think Richards is underrated. It always seems like there are flashier options out there, and so he gets overlooked. Some guys are younger, bigger, faster or drafted higher, those are the players people name. Yet Richards, who is perfectly capable of 25-30 goals and 90 points, never has and probably never will be a player that people name off the top of their head.

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07-03-2011, 01:06 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Historically, I think Richards is underrated. It always seems like there are flashier options out there, and so he gets overlooked. Some guys are younger, bigger, faster or drafted higher, those are the players people name. Yet Richards, who is perfectly capable of 25-30 goals and 90 points, never has and probably never will be a player that people name off the top of their head.
The Ron Francis comparison is spot on.

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07-03-2011, 01:32 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HockeyBurd View Post
Will it be overrated if he is a big minus on the Rangers?

Yes. If Brad, Gabby and a LW can't outcome the opposition, we are in trouble. That said, they almost definitely will. Brad will have positive career +/- before he turns 35. If he clicks with Gabby, he will be on the the ice for over 100 goals (his own, Gabby's, left winger's and defensemen's) and no way will Lundqvist/Biron give up more than 55-60 goals in those 20 even strength minutes.

After taking out the power play goals, he should still have +15 to +20 per season.


Last edited by Beacon: 07-03-2011 at 01:54 AM.
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Old
07-03-2011, 02:37 AM
  #63
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On sheer skill, Richards is somewhere in the top 10... don't care to speculate where. On what he brings to the table as a hockey player and a person, I'd put him in the top 3-5 range among centers.

Richards is a consummate professional: skilled, smart, team player and a class act. And he has an exceptional work ethic. If he ended last season relatively healthy, then right this second he is already ready for training camp or damn close to it. He is also going to make our young players much better imho. Just from playing with him, they will see the game and angles of play on a different level. I expect, for instance, to see a guy like Stepan really learn a lot from playing with Richards: how to slow the game down, how to optimize the players around you, how to create and capitalize on opposition holes.

Richards in every way, shape and form is an excellent addition to this hockey team. I am seriously, seriously excited about next season and the future of this team.

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Old
07-03-2011, 02:38 AM
  #64
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IDC where he falls.Point is,he is a #1 Cntr and a great one @ that.NYR has finally got there true first line center.I could careless where he falls among other Cntrs.

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07-03-2011, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Historically, I think Richards is underrated. It always seems like there are flashier options out there, and so he gets overlooked. Some guys are younger, bigger, faster or drafted higher, those are the players people name. Yet Richards, who is perfectly capable of 25-30 goals and 90 points, never has and probably never will be a player that people name off the top of their head.
I agree wholeheartedly with this.

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07-03-2011, 03:23 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Laces out Dan View Post
On sheer skill, Richards is somewhere in the top 10... don't care to speculate where. On what he brings to the table as a hockey player and a person, I'd put him in the top 3-5 range among centers.

Richards is a consummate professional: skilled, smart, team player and a class act. And he has an exceptional work ethic. If he ended last season relatively healthy, then right this second he is already ready for training camp or damn close to it. He is also going to make our young players much better imho. Just from playing with him, they will see the game and angles of play on a different level. I expect, for instance, to see a guy like Stepan really learn a lot from playing with Richards: how to slow the game down, how to optimize the players around you, how to create and capitalize on opposition holes.

Richards in every way, shape and form is an excellent addition to this hockey team. I am seriously, seriously excited about next season and the future of this team.
And he has a conn smyth and stanley cup to prove he is a winner.

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07-03-2011, 07:33 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Historically, I think Richards is underrated. It always seems like there are flashier options out there, and so he gets overlooked. Some guys are younger, bigger, faster or drafted higher, those are the players people name. Yet Richards, who is perfectly capable of 25-30 goals and 90 points, never has and probably never will be a player that people name off the top of their head.
I agree. I'm shocked he's only been named an allstar once

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07-03-2011, 08:10 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
How the hell is B Richards ahead of Staal? I'd also put Toews and Kesler ahead but I can understand how a 15 year old looking at stats wouldn't.
It hurts reading this thread.

Something good always comes out of something bad, and I guess we can use this thread as a reminder when we trash other fan bases.

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07-03-2011, 09:39 AM
  #69
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Do people really still try to argue that +/- isn't just a team stat? If Richards played on the Rangers last season he would have been a plus player, guaranteed. This is not the right approach to criticizing him.

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07-03-2011, 09:49 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
It hurts reading this thread.

Something good always comes out of something bad, and I guess we can use this thread as a reminder when we trash other fan bases.
That's not fair. Most posters contributed something meaningful to this thread, with only a few head-scratchers like the one you quoted.

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07-03-2011, 11:09 AM
  #71
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Brad Richards is an elite center.

He isn't generational like Crosby and Stamkos.

772 GP
716 Pts
Stanley Cup
Conn Smythe

How does that not equal elite.

Of all the centers being listed, there are only a select few that lead a team to a Cup.

Crosby, Toews, Staal, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Richards.

And as far as Thornton, Sedin, And some of the other guys the margin is slim.

Richards IS an elite center.

The contract is for 9 years but is heavily front loaded. And the cap hit is manageable. Its a no brainer.

This +/- nonsense is reaching to try to discredit the player.

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07-03-2011, 02:57 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
That's not fair. Most posters contributed something meaningful to this thread, with only a few head-scratchers like the one you quoted.
Maybe I was a but unclear, but I agree with the poster I quoted.

After being through the hole Grachev thing as basically the sole critic on the entire board I don't plan to invest hrs in setting people straight on BR, a player I actually like.

But can we at least keep the madness to a somewhat reasonable level...

Hint: BR is not after just Sid C and Joe T in terms of skill. There is a hole bunch of centers, not 5 or 15 but probably 2x/3x that who on the avg shift brings more to his team than BR.

Then BR is really good at what he is good at. Awesome offensive instincts. Good shot. You know what, I wouldn't complain if someone came on here and say "You know what, for certain teams that needs exactly what BR brings, there probably isn't 5 other centers who would be as valuable for them as BR".

It's not even funny to talk about him as a top 3 c in terms of skill. Anyone remember when we played him in Tampa a bunch of times per season? Was BR a player you even remotely worried about like you do about guys like Sid or AO? No, and due to Tampa as a team being flawed, BR was easily shut down by the likes of Betts and Co. That's not a top 3 center in terms of skill. They will basically always get up ice, win momentum for their team etc.

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07-03-2011, 03:10 PM
  #73
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I don't know of anyone who thinks Richards is a top 3 center in terms of skill...that's dumb

He's a very good center and his cap hit is about right for what he brings. I'd call him a star center...not sure about elite but that's more to do with how you define the word. I usually think "elite" with guys like Crosby because it means the best of the best.

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07-03-2011, 03:14 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Not on Crosby, Sedin or Stamkos level, but right in the mix with everyone else.
I agree with the Bard but I would say the second half of the OPs list starts getting into 1B center category, i.e. not true 1st line centers. Brad Richards has definitely had some elite seasons but hasn't had the consistency to be considered in the career elite group. Granted, he was well on his way last season towards having back to back 90 point seasons which is elite level performance.

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07-03-2011, 07:35 PM
  #75
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Sedin is not better then Richards. He just isn't.

And he lacks the mental toughness that is needed to get the job done in the playoffs.

Richards is a proven winner. Sedin is not.

And besides that, Richards also has more career points in less career games.

People are really underselling Richards.

Everywhere Richards has been, he's made his teammates better.

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