HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Protector?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-03-2011, 11:15 AM
  #26
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSHabs View Post
So those of you who see no value in protection....did you enjoy what happened during those games with Boston?Do you think that was right? I want you here to defend this position again when Subban or Eller is lying on the ice with a serious injury inflicted by Lucic or Thortons fists....because it WILL happen if this pacifist regime continues to live with its heads in the sand.ENOUGH!
Tell the truth. 'Fess up. You wanted REVENGE. I get it. So did Bertuzzi.

Just don't lie to yourself about what you really want, nor lie to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by We Want The 25 View Post
i think we have to get someone like that . laraque didnt do what we signed him to do and no one really wanted to fight him we need someone who in case one of our guys gets hurt he will go after the guy that hurt him and make him pay without sending him a fax asking if he wanted to fight . that was the problem with laraque . i want konopka and or boulton please
Ahah, an honest poster stating clearly he wants revenge, not protection (which cannot be had anyway).

Thanks for the candor.

By the way, have the protector theorists actually thought any of this through? Their premise is that one of our guys is hurt. We do know that the guy who hurt him might get a suspension of 1 game, 2 games, 5 games, 10 games or 20 games. He would lose salary and lose performance which can lead to his NEXT contract and more salary. Yet they dream that he does not care about those possible consequences, but is shaking in his boots that someone might fight him, and maybe win, maybe lose? Seriously, do they think that they have thought this through??

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 11:17 AM
  #27
rousseau15
Registered User
 
rousseau15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 35
vCash: 500
i am serious ...anyone who lasts 12 years in the big leagues at a mere 205 lbs ,must have more than fists going for himself

rousseau15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 11:20 AM
  #28
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
If at least you would have listed John Ferguson and Chris Nilan, I could respect the argument, but Darren Langdon as a good hockey player?

You can't be serious.
Where did he write that he was a good player ?

Vasculio is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 11:22 AM
  #29
Estimated_Prophet
Registered User
 
Estimated_Prophet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
How do explain the fact that most teams in the league disagree?
Detroit doesn't need goons anymore
Just because most people like Big Mac's......doesn't mean they are a wise choice.......

Estimated_Prophet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 11:23 AM
  #30
Bill McNeal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,321
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSHabs View Post
So those of you who see no value in protection....did you enjoy what happened during those games with Boston?Do you think that was right? I want you here to defend this position again when Subban or Eller is lying on the ice with a serious injury inflicted by Lucic or Thortons fists....because it WILL happen if this pacifist regime continues to live with its heads in the sand.ENOUGH!
How many players have Lucic or Thornton seriously injured in fights? And how many fights do you see Lars Eller partaking in in his career?

99% of fights end up with two guys in the box with maybe a couple of swollen fists and one with a bruised ego. That's not where injuries come from. They come from routine plays that happen to result in injury or cheap shots.

And considering the team that has you soiling yourself over their toughness leads the league in guys who will be donating their brains to science after they die, it's pretty safe to say you can't deter a guy from decapitating one of your teammates by hugging him for 30 seconds.

Bill McNeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 11:53 AM
  #31
LowBallFern
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Trade Moen for Matt Cooke so other teams are wasting their energy chasing Cooke around instead of PK.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very un-disciplined player though.....
The kind of guy you would love if combined with another player like Raffi Torres, when cheap shots are given to one of our player....And a Coltor type and all of a sudden our team would gain respectability.

LowBallFern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:15 PM
  #32
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
How do explain the fact that most teams in the league disagree?
1/2 the teams don't make the PO's, thus need to sell some kind of 'entertainment' and 1/2 the teams can't sell out, even if they are in PO position, so they need to 'entertain'. How man retards in montreal were buying laraque jerseys and t-shirts? you think they were big fans of him because people got excited by the fact he was some sort of guardian angel to the team, white and shiny night? or because he rose the level of testosterone in people and made them 'enjoy' the habs game more, waiting for that moment to get up from their seats and start screaming like baboons (been there, done that, it just feels good).

'enforcers' and 'protectors' are nothing more then entertainment for you ballsack.

not to mention, this argument has been discussed over and over and the fact that last season was high in suspensions and injuries and concussions should make people realize goonin' is not effective in this day and age. BaseballCoach said it perfectly.


Last edited by uiCk: 07-03-2011 at 12:31 PM.
uiCk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:32 PM
  #33
LowBallFern
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 139
vCash: 500
The additions of trio of peacemaker/agitators of the acabit of a Raffi Torres/Derek Dorset, a Matt Cooke/Sean Every and a Zenon Konopka would certainly help our team!

All of a sudden, this addition of caracther, grit size combined with PK, Emelin, Cole, Pacman, Darche and othrs would give us the ingredients needed to carry us far in the playoffs.....Just saying!

LowBallFern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:38 PM
  #34
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowBallFern View Post
The additions of trio of peacemaker/agitators of the acabit of a Raffi Torres/Derek Dorset, a Matt Cooke/Sean Every and a Zenon Konopka would certainly help our team!

All of a sudden, this addition of caracther, grit size combined with PK, Emelin, Cole, Pacman, Darche and othrs would give us the ingredients needed to carry us far in the playoffs.....Just saying!

I do not find that Matt Cooke, Sean Avery and Zenon Konopka are good character players.

Cooke is a blindsiding coward, Konopka is an undisciplined (i.e. selfish) penalty taker, and Avery is a character all right, but not a positive one for a team.

Much better character players are, Gionta, Cammalleri, Desharnais, Plekanec, Cole, Mara, heck even Pyatt. Good character guys give it their all at all times and sacrifice themselves for the team. That is NOT Cooke, Avery or Konopka.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:41 PM
  #35
Aurel Joliat
Registered User
 
Aurel Joliat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,609
vCash: 500
There is few interesting names :

Zenon Konopka
Brad Winchester

Jean-Francois Jacques
Brian Sutherby
Troy Bodie

Only goons :
Eric Godard
Eric Boulton
Steve MacIntyre
Cam Janssen

We need one of those players. The 5 players at the top of the list can easily play a regular shift on the 4th line. That's what Gauthier and Martin want right ? So sign one of them !!!!

And Laraque is a really bad example. It was a mistake to sign him, but it's not a proof that Habs don't need a fighter. Just check how Langdon, Odjick, Ewen, Nilan etc. were useful for us.

Aurel Joliat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:42 PM
  #36
Madam Kadri
Fight, Troll, Score
 
Madam Kadri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland native
Country: United States
Posts: 6,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
You mean avenge, of course. There is very little opportunity for actual protection.

Boogaard could not protect Mikko Koivu, Odjick could not protect Richard Zednik, Chara could not protect Nathan Horton, Thornton could not protect Marc Savard, Bertuzzi did not protect Naslund, Ryan White could not protect Pacioretty. I could go on forever.

Just the fact that THREE Bruins are on the list for guys whose bells were rung, some multiple times, should tell you that having tough guys does not protect against cheap shots.
No protection = free for all. Hunt to extinction. Whatever you want to call it. They'll keep on doing it, no holds barred.

Protection = Opposing players must be willing to assess the RISK in doing something "over the edge" to someone. It becomes "tit for tat". They have to "pick their spots" more carefully because the "payback" is more severe. Injuries from the fight can occur, and the player might have to back down.

I'm pretty sure Boychuk backed down from trying to stick out his knee once Ryan White came and stood up to him.

Madam Kadri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:50 PM
  #37
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
No protection = free for all. Hunt to extinction. Whatever you want to call it. They'll keep on doing it, no holds barred.

Protection = Opposing players must be willing to assess the RISK in doing something "over the edge" to someone. It becomes "tit for tat". They have to "pick their spots" more carefully because the "payback" is more severe. Injuries from the fight can occur, and the player might have to back down.

I'm pretty sure Boychuk backed down from trying to stick out his knee once Ryan White came and stood up to him.
the risk factor is a suspension, not facing a beating that you can easily avoid anyways.

uiCk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 12:55 PM
  #38
Madam Kadri
Fight, Troll, Score
 
Madam Kadri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maryland native
Country: United States
Posts: 6,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Ignoring the hilarious brain fart...

Maybe Randy Jones would have thought twice about drilling Patrice Bergeron into the boards if he knew there might be some retribution. Instead 20 guys are yelling from the bench, 'Hey that wasn't very nice!'

Maybe Matt Cooke would have thought twice about introducing his forearm to Marc Savard's head if he knew there might be some retribution. Instead 20 guys are yelling from the bench, 'Hey that wasn't very nice!'

Maybe Aaron Rome would have thought twice about knocking a vulnerable Nathan Horton into next season if he knew there might be some retribution. Instead 20 guys are yelling from the bench, 'Hey that wasn't very nice!'

If anybody at this point thinks goons and enforcers protect players from cheap shots, they're a lost cause.
Acutually, I watched an interview with some old-timer Bruin who said he "would have went crazy" if he was there instead of the tepid response the Bruins showed after the Savard hit. Boston's is not that tough; it's just that we're so soft, they have are way with us regardless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
the risk factor is a suspension, not facing a beating that you can easily avoid anyways.
Concussions, eye injuries, busted knuckles, and other broken bones can all come out of a fight. If they want to take that risk, be my guest.

Madam Kadri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:05 PM
  #39
Bill McNeal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,321
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Acutually, I watched an interview with some old-timer Bruin who said he "would have went crazy" if he was there instead of the tepid response the Bruins showed after the Savard hit. Boston's is not that tough; it's just that we're so soft, they have are way with us regardless.
That old-timer Bruin would have gone crazy in the 70s or 80s, not in this day and age. It's a different time and a different league.

The style of 'retribution' that Bertuzzi sought on Moore was a regular occurrence 30 or 40 years ago. If you pull that crap today, as evidenced, you lose 1/4 of your season, millions in earnings and have a stigma attached to you the rest of your career. Hell you get 10 games simply for leaving the bench now.

Every game is televised, every action analyzed post-game, every play uploaded onto the internet. That's why hockey is less of a gong show than it used to be. Compound that with the influx of talent from overseas that has allowed teams to fill out their bottom lines with players who actually have talent, and that's why the role of enforcer is slowly dying out.

Bill McNeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:05 PM
  #40
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
Concussions, eye injuries, busted knuckles, and other broken bones can all come out of a fight. If they want to take that risk, be my guest.
you can avoid a fight, you can't avoid a suspension. There is no RISK involved, if you decide to turtle down and NOT fight. it's really not hard to understand that the real risk of a 'edgy' play is suspensions. If you could ask downie what's the 'risk' in playing on the edge, its penelties and suspensions, not fights. And anyways most fighting injuries are usually self inflicted.

uiCk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:24 PM
  #41
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,755
vCash: 500
It's never about having 5 goons in the lineup, but I just can't believe people in here had no problem with the embarassment we had against Boston. This is the freakin Montreal Canadiens. I guess I'm old fashion, but NOBODY can disrespect that jersey. It was and we turned the other cheek. Just can't believe we accept this.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:35 PM
  #42
habs24
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
Another slow-as-molasses-can't-play-more-than-5-minutes-and-take-stupid-penalty-useless-goon ?


I thought we had learned with big useless Laraque
Habs didn't have Laraque last year and they were put out in the first round. Whats your point?

habs24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:38 PM
  #43
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by old scotia View Post
When the Oliers interviewed Darcy Hordichuk they asked him if he would protect his teammates.
Sure wish the habs would ask that question to someone...anyone. Another year of ********* hockey is not entertaining when you see Subban chased around the ice and grabbed and shaken.
I heard Darcy's interview on TSN. I agree that this is a HUGE missing piece of the puzzle in Montreal.

Hordichuk is a character player. He knows that he will not be on the ice to score goals. He is there to "protect the young players" as he said during the interview.

Scorers score and players like Hordichuk allow the scorers to play with confidence knowing that someone is there to take care of the antagonists.

Its a shame that current management has forgotten the roles that Roberge, Ewen and Odelein played on the '93 Cup winning team that allowed Kirk Muller (yep, that guy), Damphousse and Bellows to concentrate on scoring goals instead of getting thrown to the ice.

Ditto for the '86 Cup winning team that had Chris Nilan and John Kordic (playoffs) on the team.

I miss the days of the Canadiens being one of the toughest teams in the League.

Quote:
Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Is Ryan White not good enough at it? What's the point of having a goon? We all saw how well our previous one worked out.

I have no problem with a guy that can play hockey AND fight like Winchester. But please don't talk about senseless goons like Hordichuk who are becoming obsolete.
That is the big disconnect for a lot of Canadiens fans.

A lot of people default to Laraque as an example when talking about team toughness. Laraque was a "goon" who only fought people who wanted to engage in a staged fight. He was useless with regard to protecting scorers while in Montreal (as shown with the Lucic fiasco-----should have taken the instigator and dropped Lucic)

No, we need the players who can and will fight, like Rupp, Eager, Vandermeer (all missed opportunities by Gauthier/Martin) Konopka........ but can also play hockey.

So please, as a favor to sensible hockey fans, do not ever use Laraque as the standard for what is needed in Montreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Ignoring the hilarious brain fart...

Maybe Randy Jones would have thought twice about drilling Patrice Bergeron into the boards if he knew there might be some retribution. Instead 20 guys are yelling from the bench, 'Hey that wasn't very nice!'

Maybe Matt Cooke would have thought twice about introducing his forearm to Marc Savard's head if he knew there might be some retribution. Instead 20 guys are yelling from the bench, 'Hey that wasn't very nice!'

Maybe Aaron Rome would have thought twice about knocking a vulnerable Nathan Horton into next season if he knew there might be some retribution. Instead 20 guys are yelling from the bench, 'Hey that wasn't very nice!'

If anybody at this point thinks goons and enforcers protect players from cheap shots, they're a lost cause.
Wasnt it awesome watching Marchand punch one of the Sedin twins five or six times?

And no one did anything to Marchand the next game (I understand that there was less than 5 minutes to go in the game so no one wanted the instigator)

The Bruins, at that point, realized that the Canucks were ready to roll over and play like the ******* that the Bruins turned them into.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:49 PM
  #44
habs24
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's never about having 5 goons in the lineup, but I just can't believe people in here had no problem with the embarassment we had against Boston. This is the freakin Montreal Canadiens. I guess I'm old fashion, but NOBODY can disrespect that jersey. It was and we turned the other cheek. Just can't believe we accept this.
Exactly, not sure why others don't see that. Other teams can bring guys in to look after their better players but its not good enough for the Habs.

habs24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:52 PM
  #45
gusfring
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's never about having 5 goons in the lineup, but I just can't believe people in here had no problem with the embarassment we had against Boston. This is the freakin Montreal Canadiens. I guess I'm old fashion, but NOBODY can disrespect that jersey. It was and we turned the other cheek. Just can't believe we accept this.
I agree. There are some short memories round here.

gusfring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:57 PM
  #46
Bill McNeal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,321
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Wasnt it awesome watching Marchand punch one of the Sedin twins five or six times?

And no one did anything to Marchand the next game (I understand that there was less than 5 minutes to go in the game so no one wanted the instigator)

The Bruins, at that point, realized that the Canucks were ready to roll over and play like the ******* that the Bruins turned them into.
You just proved my point: When it matters most, fighters aren't useful at all. You can be a huge dick, waving your finger at a respected player like Bergeron or rabbit punching the Art Ross winner, and nobody will do anything. You can knock out the other team's biggest offensive weapon in the playoffs and still fear no retribution from the 'policemen' of the ice.

Bill McNeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 01:57 PM
  #47
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,300
vCash: 500
The great CH teams from the past all had tough players that could play, and some other goons. Ok, things changed, but aggression and intimidation is still part of the game. If you think otherwise, you play EA sports too much, not saying Eric Godard alone would change everything, but Godard AND Winchester, added to White and Moen for example, would bring so much more respect from other teams, but more than that, we could finally intimidate them too... I miss that

Vasculio is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 02:06 PM
  #48
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cooke is a blindsiding coward, Konopka is an undisciplined (i.e. selfish) penalty taker, and Avery is a character all right, but not a positive one for a team.
Funny you're mentioning that as I was having this discussion with a follower on Twitter a day or two ago. We were talking about the fact that Konopka was taking a lot of penalties (307 last year) and he was calling him undisciplined. It's legitimate, no doubt, but something struck me when I took a closer look.

25 major penalties; 10 games misconduct (often for instigator); 2 gross misconduct. Those penalties tell me that unlike what most reproached to BGL, Zonopka doesn't send a fax before dropping the gloves and he certainly doesn't hesitate to do so.

But where it got very interesting is when I looked at the minor penalties... Konopka took 31 minor penalties last year. Is it a lot? Let's have a closer look:

19 players took more minor penalties than Konopka, including Cooke, Perry, Brière, Neil, Hartnell, O'Byrne, Hedman, Backes, Morrow and Stamkos amongst others. Remember, we're talking about someone who lead the NHL by a wide margin in PIM here!

On the Habs, Subban (42) and Hamrlik (33) received more minor penalties than Konopka, while Plekanec isn't far behind with 28!

Now I know that those players play more than Konopka, but the concern about him "putting his team in trouble, short-handed", or being undisciplined is overblown in my opinion.

Now let's not forget that his FO% is at around 57% and that he has well over 100 hits!

Would he stop cheap shots against our players? Likely not. Would they be looking over their shoulder if they we thinking of doing something stupid? I would think so!

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 02:07 PM
  #49
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's never about having 5 goons in the lineup, but I just can't believe people in here had no problem with the embarassment we had against Boston. This is the freakin Montreal Canadiens. I guess I'm old fashion, but NOBODY can disrespect that jersey. It was and we turned the other cheek. Just can't believe we accept this.
So you wanted vengeance. I get that, many people did.

The problem is, how is that different than how Bertuzzi going down his eventually disastrous path?

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2011, 02:11 PM
  #50
neofury*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
So you wanted vengeance. I get that, many people did.

The problem is, how is that different than how Bertuzzi going down his eventually disastrous path?
No different really.

neofury* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.