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Carter/Richards traded (Pt. 2); Quotes: Pronger (#100); Snider (#135); Carter (#954)

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Old
07-03-2011, 03:51 PM
  #976
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You have to understand that the players want to have long term financial stability and guarantee. They have to sacrifice some money in the short term to guarantee it on the long term.

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07-03-2011, 04:10 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
You have to understand that the players want to have long term financial stability and guarantee. They have to sacrifice some money in the short term to guarantee it on the long term.
Of course, but in the end, they are gonna lose out on alot of money. But thats the risk they took.

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07-03-2011, 05:08 PM
  #978
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You have to understand that the players want to have long term financial stability and guarantee. They have to sacrifice some money in the short term to guarantee it on the long term.
Absolutely. But with Richards and Carter, they sacrificed money to stay in Philly. Had they known they were going to be traded away, neither would have signed for cheap. The franchise would have been in salary cap hell the past two years (beyond what they already put themselves into) had they paid Richards what he was worth on a short term deal. Carter's new deal hadn't started yet, but it would have been the same scenario (or worse, with the way money has been thrown around this weekend).

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07-03-2011, 09:06 PM
  #979
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Richards made 5.75 million per for a decade. His was not a sweet heart contract.

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07-03-2011, 09:26 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Absolutely. But with Richards and Carter, they sacrificed money to stay in Philly. Had they known they were going to be traded away, neither would have signed for cheap. The franchise would have been in salary cap hell the past two years (beyond what they already put themselves into) had they paid Richards what he was worth on a short term deal. Carter's new deal hadn't started yet, but it would have been the same scenario (or worse, with the way money has been thrown around this weekend).
1. Sacrificed money? Kane and Toews are paid slightly more with a much shorter term, and I'd take Toews over Richards and Kane over Carter. Getzlaf and Perry are paid similar figures on the short term, and both are better than Carter or Richards.
2. They wouldn't want to sign with us if they knew they would be traded? No offense to you, but no ****. The fact still remains that they didn't sign for "cheap."
3. You keep acting like the franchise owes it to them to make them the highest paid players in the league. It's a give and take business. If they want to win a championship, they have to sign to a contract with a cap hit that won't cripple the team. And, once again, almost every player their age would prefer a long term deal with a lesser number of dollars per year than a short term deal with slightly more.

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07-03-2011, 10:12 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
1. Sacrificed money? Kane and Toews are paid slightly more with a much shorter term, and I'd take Toews over Richards and Kane over Carter. Getzlaf and Perry are paid similar figures on the short term, and both are better than Carter or Richards.
You would. I applaud you for digging up the two players in the NHL who were drafted in 2003, and are even more underpaid than either Richards or Carter, though.

Richards plays a better two-way game, hits harder, and was the face of the franchise. If he were on a team like the Thrashers or the Bluejackets, Richards would easily be making 6 to 7 million dollars, as opposed to the 5.75 he was/is making.

Now, do you want to take a look at what some of Carter's contemporaries are really making? If he wanted to be a dick, Carter could have held out for a short-term deal that took him right up until the age of 27, and signed with the highest bidder for a retarded sum.
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2. They wouldn't want to sign with us if they knew they would be traded? No offense to you, but no ****. The fact still remains that they didn't sign for "cheap."
Between the two of them, they've taken about four for the team. One and two came in 2006, when they both passed up a year counting towards their UFA status by signing after the lockout (REMEMBER? Probably not), and three and four by signing their long-term deals at a discount. They've done this team more than enough favors.
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3. You keep acting like the franchise owes it to them to make them the highest paid players in the league. It's a give and take business. If they want to win a championship, they have to sign to a contract with a cap hit that won't cripple the team. And, once again, almost every player their age would prefer a long term deal with a lesser number of dollars per year than a short term deal with slightly more.
Words... don't express.


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07-03-2011, 10:31 PM
  #982
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You would. I applaud you for digging up the two players in the NHL who were drafted in 2003, and are even more underpaid than either Richards or Carter, though.

Richards plays a better two-way game, hits harder, and was the face of the franchise. If he were on a team like the Thrashers or the Bluejackets, Richards would easily be making 6 to 7 million dollars, as opposed to the 5.75 he was/is making.

Now, do you want to take a look at what some of Carter's contemporaries are really making? If he wanted to be a dick, Carter could have held out for a short-term deal that took him right up until the age of 27, and signed with the highest bidder for a retarded sum. Between the two of them, they've taken about four for the team. One and two came in 2006, when they both passed up a year counting towards their UFA status by signing after the lockout (REMEMBER? Probably not), and three and four by signing their long-term deals at a discount. They've done this team more than enough favors.Words... don't express.

Nicely said.

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07-03-2011, 10:46 PM
  #983
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You would. I applaud you for digging up the two players in the NHL who were drafted in 2003, and are even more underpaid than either Richards or Carter, though.

Richards plays a better two-way game, hits harder, and was the face of the franchise. If he were on a team like the Thrashers or the Bluejackets, Richards would easily be making 6 to 7 million dollars, as opposed to the 5.75 he was/is making.

Now, do you want to take a look at what some of Carter's contemporaries are really making? If he wanted to be a dick, Carter could have held out for a short-term deal that took him right up until the age of 27, and signed with the highest bidder for a retarded sum. Between the two of them, they've taken about four for the team. One and two came in 2006, when they both passed up a year counting towards their UFA status by signing after the lockout (REMEMBER? Probably not), and three and four by signing their long-term deals at a discount. They've done this team more than enough favors.Words... don't express.

1. Who are you comparing Richards to? Also, if he were on a team like the Thrashers, he wouldn't have been given a contract that gives him 69 million dollars. That's half the value of the franchise.
2. So you're saying Carter should have been a dick? You would have rather the Flyers had been the team to pay him his "retarded sum," as you put it? We gave the guy $58 million. We traded him when he wasn't expecting it, but I have a hard time feeling bad for him because he "should have" been able to "dick" some other team out of a couple extra million bucks.

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07-03-2011, 10:48 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
1. Sacrificed money? Kane and Toews are paid slightly more with a much shorter term, and I'd take Toews over Richards and Kane over Carter. Getzlaf and Perry are paid similar figures on the short term, and both are better than Carter or Richards.
Horrible analogies
Kane will be 27 when he becomes an UFA
Toews will be 28 when he becomes an UFA
Getzlaf will be 28 when he becomes an UFA
Perry will be 28 when he becomes an UFA
They will all get their paydays.

Richards will be 35 when he becomes an UFA
Carter will be 37 when he becomes an UFA
They will not be getting any more big contracts.


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2. They wouldn't want to sign with us if they knew they would be traded? No offense to you, but no ****. The fact still remains that they didn't sign for "cheap."
They absolutely did. They passed up tens of millions of dollars over their careers.

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3. You keep acting like the franchise owes it to them to make them the highest paid players in the league. It's a give and take business.
And when it comes time to lock up JVR, Giroux, Voracek, Scheen long term, they will remember exactly how the Flyers do business.

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If they want to win a championship, they have to sign to a contract with a cap hit that won't cripple the team.
Which is what they did. To help the team out. The team then traded them.

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And, once again, almost every player their age would prefer a long term deal with a lesser number of dollars per year than a short term deal with slightly more.
That isn't true at all.

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07-03-2011, 11:03 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
Horrible analogies
Kane will be 27 when he becomes an UFA
Toews will be 28 when he becomes an UFA
Getzlaf will be 28 when he becomes an UFA
Perry will be 28 when he becomes an UFA
They will all get their paydays.

Richards will be 35 when he becomes an UFA
Carter will be 37 when he becomes an UFA
They will not be getting any more big contracts.
So we gave Carter and Richards their lifetime contracts earlier than the others will likely receive theirs...
Do you really think the others' contracts will have a cap hit that is that much more than either Carter or Richards? Remember, the players couldn't care less about the cap hit.

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They absolutely did. They passed up tens of millions of dollars over their careers.
Because we all know hockey careers are guaranteed....What could possibly go wrong for a player? Good thing we didn't give Lindros a lifetime contract. He would've been ripped off!

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And when it comes time to lock up JVR, Giroux, Voracek, Scheen long term, they will remember exactly how the Flyers do business.
They may, indeed. I'm not supporting the way the Flyers traded these guys.

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Which is what they did. To help the team out. The team then traded them.
Yeah, and the team helped them out by guaranteeing them each nearly $60 million.

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That isn't true at all.
I tend to think that athletes would like long term financial stability in a sport where players go down daily, some never being able to return to prominence. I bet Gagne wished he had Richards' contract. Also keep in mind that Richards and Carter didn't reluctantly sign their contracts. They were obviously happy with the terms, or the wouldn't have signed. The team dicked them over in the manner in which it traded them, but "it is what it is."

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07-03-2011, 11:28 PM
  #986
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So we gave Carter and Richards their lifetime contracts earlier than the others will likely receive theirs...
Do you really think the others' contracts will have a cap hit that is that much more than either Carter or Richards? Remember, the players couldn't care less about the cap hit.
Do I think Toews, Kane Getzlaf and Perry will get contracts with an annual cap hit more than $5,272,727-$5,750,000? Umm.... Yes, by a lot.


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Because we all know hockey careers are guaranteed....What could possibly go wrong for a player? Good thing we didn't give Lindros a lifetime contract. He would've been ripped off!
You said they didn't sign for cheap. They did. You're just highlighting one of the possible motives they had for signing for cheap.

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Yeah, and the team helped them out by guaranteeing them each nearly $60 million.
Again, potentially a lot less than what they could have earned. It wasn't like the Flyers did them any favors.


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I tend to think that athletes would like long term financial stability in a sport where players go down daily, some never being able to return to prominence. I bet Gagne wished he had Richards' contract.
As mentioned, Kane, Toews, Getzlaf and Perry all will be in their late 20's when they hit Unrestricted free agency.
Crosby will be 25 when he becomes an UFA.
Malkin 27
Kopitar 28

They could have taken less money for security. They choose instead to structure deals so they could become free agents in the prime of their career.

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Also keep in mind that Richards and Carter didn't reluctantly sign their contracts. They were obviously happy with the terms, or the wouldn't have signed. The team dicked them over in the manner in which it traded them, but "it is what it is."
Which is pretty much what I'm saying.

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07-03-2011, 11:38 PM
  #987
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Do I think Toews, Kane Getzlaf and Perry will get contracts with an annual cap hit more than $5,272,727-$5,750,000? Umm.... Yes, by a lot.
We'll see. I don't expect a cap hit over $7M for any of them if it's long term.


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You said they didn't sign for cheap. They did. You're just highlighting one of the possible motives they had for signing for cheap.
Sorry, I didn't know $60M was cheap.



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Again, potentially a lot less than what they could have earned. It wasn't like the Flyers did them any favors.
And potentially a lot more depending how their career turns

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As mentioned, Kane, Toews, Getzlaf and Perry all will be in their late 20's when they hit Unrestricted free agency.
Crosby will be 25 when he becomes an UFA.
Malkin 27
Kopitar 28

They could have taken less money for security. They choose instead to structure deals so they could become free agents in the prime of their career.
That's their choice. Richards and Carter chose to go for the long-term contracts.

Quote:
Which is pretty much what I'm saying.
I never said anything to suggest otherwise. I'm just sick of hearing that Carter and Richards should have "dicked" the Flyers out of more money. They're set for life. Their children will be set for life. If their children aren't stupid, their children will be set for life, etc. I can't feel bad for them about that. I can feel bad because they wanted to stay in Philly and were traded unsuspectingly.

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07-03-2011, 11:58 PM
  #988
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This thread is getting old. Young Players who arguably have accomplished less than their peers signed guaranteed contracts solidifying their financial fortune's security through the entirety of their careers in a sport where longevity is not guaranteed....


That must honestly suck.

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07-04-2011, 07:05 AM
  #989
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We'll see. I don't expect a cap hit over $7M for any of them if it's long term.
a) So $5.75 million is the same as $7 million+?

b) Kane and Toews are already at $6.3 million average salary until their UFA years. That number isn't likely to go down.

c) Getzlaf and Perry are at $5.325 million until 2013-14, which is a huge bargain for the Ducks. Can we expect them to sign for a raise of $400K average salary?

Please.

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07-04-2011, 07:25 AM
  #990
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a) So $5.75 million is the same as $7 million+?

b) Kane and Toews are already at $6.3 million average salary until their UFA years. That number isn't likely to go down.

c) Getzlaf and Perry are at $5.325 million until 2013-14, which is a huge bargain for the Ducks. Can we expect them to sign for a raise of $400K average salary?

Please.

It's not even worth talking to you. For some reason you don't understand that guaranteeing a player $60 million dollars is significant. Players less valuable than Richards and Carter are paid more than them, and players more valuable are paid less. Regardless, they're making bank and I don't feel bad for them because they might have been able to scrape out a few extra hundred K per year.

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07-04-2011, 07:36 AM
  #991
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post

It's not even worth talking to you. For some reason you don't understand that guaranteeing a player $60 million dollars is significant. Players less valuable than Richards and Carter are paid more than them, and players more valuable are paid less. Regardless, they're making bank and I don't feel bad for them because they might have been able to scrape out a few extra hundred K per year.


He's being pretty reasonable. Don't expect any players to sign a long term contract with Holmgren that is less what they think would receive in UFA after this fiasco. He is a thief.

You might not feel bad but everyone involved should.

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07-04-2011, 07:47 AM
  #992
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He's being pretty reasonable. Don't expect any players to sign a long term contract with Holmgren that is less what they think would receive in UFA after this fiasco. He is a thief.

You might not feel bad but everyone involved should.


But as far as the rest of your comments go, I totally agree. Homer and Snider really screwed Carter over and partly screwed Richards over. At least he's got 9 years left, not 11.

Not only were Homer/Snider morally *******s but this will cost them big time down the road. So the cap will continue to be an issue and ticket prices will continue to rise. That's how the fans will be screwed over. We may also have issues with Carter and Richards' agents not putting the Flyers high up on the list of places to go because of this.

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07-04-2011, 07:56 AM
  #993
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I know how people think that Pronger might have had something to do with them being moved. Not like he went to Holmgren and said they have to go, but that he voiced some displeasure about their attitudes or something along those lines. But I was wondering if Kimmo might have had something to do with moving the organization towards making these decisions. I remember him saying something like "I'm going to have a long talk with Paul" or something like that, and he also insinuated that it wasn't going to be a pleasant conversation.

I wonder if it had anything to do with them.

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07-04-2011, 08:41 AM
  #994
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=649103&page=32

The good stuff starts around page 30. Pretty much everyone ripping Holmgren and calling for him to be fired for trading Sbisa and two firsts for Pronger. We saw how that worked out...a lot of people should be eating crow.

Maybe we should just trust him, for once.

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07-04-2011, 08:44 AM
  #995
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=649103&page=32

The good stuff starts around page 30. Pretty much everyone ripping Holmgren and calling for him to be fired for trading Sbisa and two firsts for Pronger. We saw how that worked out...a lot of people should be eating crow.

Maybe we should just trust him, for once.
Did we win the Cup yet?

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07-04-2011, 08:48 AM
  #996
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lol...no...and that is exactly what I would say to the Richards apologists who say he can do no wrong. Did we win the cup with Richards and Carter? No...they had 5 seasons and failed every single time.

Of course, I'll get flamed for this...but you're the one who said it. We haven't won the Cup with the core that we had.

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07-04-2011, 08:58 AM
  #997
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lol...no...and that is exactly what I would say to the Richards apologists who say he can do no wrong. Did we win the cup with Richards and Carter? No...they had 5 seasons and failed every single time.

Of course, I'll get flamed for this...but you're the one who said it. We haven't won the Cup with the core that we had.
Well, to be fair for others, Mario Lemieux and Steve Yzerman needed longer than 5 years.


29 other teams wouldn't have made the Pronger trade if they knew two years later Carter and Richards would get shipped out, and also further proves Holmgren's flaws being that the Flyers were still ill-equipped to win the Stanley Cup. Holmgren had the balls to do the Pronger trade (which should have put us over the top), but backed off when he could have had Dwayne Roloson for Ryan Parent and a 3rd round pick.

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07-04-2011, 09:03 AM
  #998
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lol...no...and that is exactly what I would say to the Richards apologists who say he can do no wrong. Did we win the cup with Richards and Carter? No...they had 5 seasons and failed every single time.

Of course, I'll get flamed for this...but you're the one who said it. We haven't won the Cup with the core that we had.
Pronger is on the downside of his career, Richards and Carter are in their prime. To expect them to win a cup before 26 is a bit much.

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07-04-2011, 09:05 AM
  #999
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We're maxed out.

If you guys feel you need to continue with this topic, feel free to make a new thread and we'll sticky it.

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