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Let's all laugh at Bobby Clarke

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Old
09-11-2005, 10:18 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
Oates.

I also felt that to a lesser degree that a young Justin Williams for Danny Markov was slight overpayment.
The Oates deal was a necessary trade. The Flyers lost both their #1 and #2 centerman in one night, and were in big trouble without them. The bottom line is, the Flyers acquired a top line centerman without giving up a single NHL player. Those players and picks have done nothing in the NHL as of today, so to say that it was a bad deal when Clarke's hand was clearly forced, and every GM in the NHL knew that, is wrong in my opinion.

Personally, I'd take a top-4 physical defenseman like Markov over a third liner like Williams any day. As of right now, Williams hasn't done much to become a top-6 player, other than being on a team like Carolina.

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09-11-2005, 10:28 PM
  #77
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once again one of the 1st replies was attacking the leafs, such bull


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09-11-2005, 10:42 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Clarkes one of the top 5 GMs in the league and I dont even like the guy.

Boucher for Handzus and Esche.

Fedotenko and picks for Pitkanen.

Drafting Carter and Richards.

Primeau for Brindy

Lindros for Johnsson +

and of course getting Forsberg.

Youre tellin me that one of the reasons clarke is a top 5 gm is cause he drafted carter and richards when both Carter and richards arent established players yet. Yes they have huge potential just like every prospect but that dosent mean clarke is better than 25 gm. When carter and richards each have a couple 30 goals season under there belt then lets talk but for now there still prospects and clarke is still a mediocer gm. He still hasent won the cup yet.

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09-11-2005, 11:53 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
The Oates deal was a necessary trade. The Flyers lost both their #1 and #2 centerman in one night, and were in big trouble without them. The bottom line is, the Flyers acquired a top line centerman without giving up a single NHL player. Those players and picks have done nothing in the NHL as of today, so to say that it was a bad deal when Clarke's hand was clearly forced, and every GM in the NHL knew that, is wrong in my opinion.

Personally, I'd take a top-4 physical defenseman like Markov over a third liner like Williams any day. As of right now, Williams hasn't done much to become a top-6 player, other than being on a team like Carolina.
Different viewpoints sure, so I guess I'll just leave it at the fact that there's no arguing Clarke is easily one of the top GMs in the league no matter how much of a ****** I think he is.

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09-11-2005, 11:58 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oli500
Youre tellin me that one of the reasons clarke is a top 5 gm is cause he drafted carter and richards when both Carter and richards arent established players yet. Yes they have huge potential just like every prospect but that dosent mean clarke is better than 25 gm. When carter and richards each have a couple 30 goals season under there belt then lets talk but for now there still prospects and clarke is still a mediocer gm. He still hasent won the cup yet.
Clarke isn't a mediocre GM. He hasn't won a Cup as everyone knows. But every single year he has been the GM, the team is in the playoffs and in the hunt for the Cup every single year. I'll take that anyday.

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09-12-2005, 02:46 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
Oates.
Just how are those picks doing?

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Old
09-12-2005, 04:25 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HungryforHockey25
Clarke isn't a mediocre GM. He hasn't won a Cup as everyone knows. But every single year he has been the GM, the team is in the playoffs and in the hunt for the Cup every single year. I'll take that anyday.
On a side note give Craig Button a top 5 payroll and he might have won a cup in Calgary,Lets wait and see how Clarke does with a real budget before we pass god like stats to his name! Any damn GM(save Sather) with 70m budget would have been successfull.

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Old
09-12-2005, 07:26 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
On a side note give Craig Button a top 5 payroll and he might have won a cup in Calgary,Lets wait and see how Clarke does with a real budget before we pass god like stats to his name! Any damn GM(save Sather) with 70m budget would have been successfull.
He did pretty well in Minny and Florida

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Old
09-12-2005, 10:33 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mothra
wow....to me it seems that a moderator would have a little more control than what you are displaying in this post
normally I do, but let's just say I was a little tipsy after a whole day of tailgating and football.

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Old
09-12-2005, 10:43 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Raider Zero
normally I do, but let's just say I was a little tipsy after a whole day of tailgating and football.
ah....a case of P.U.I

better get a good lawyer

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09-12-2005, 11:02 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by T@T
On a side note give Craig Button a top 5 payroll and he might have won a cup in Calgary.
LMAO! Craig Button?! Any time I saw him on The Score I wondered "how was this guy EVER an NHL General Manager?" He's a joke. Give him a top 5 payroll and people might have forgotten all of Mike Milbury's wonderful blunders.

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09-12-2005, 11:17 AM
  #87
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I've said it so many times, and been flamed for it, but Bobby Clark is the most overrated GM in the NHL...hands down...

I don't think he sucks...just overrated...I can think of at least 10 better GM's in the league...let's just say that had it not been for his relationship with Snyder and his ties to Philly...he wouldn't be the GM there today...again, before I get flamed...I don't think he stinks, just that he gets too much mention when speaking of best GM's in the league

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09-12-2005, 11:20 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
I've said it so many times, and been flamed for it, but Bobby Clark is the most overrated GM in the NHL...hands down...

I don't think he sucks...just overrated...I can think of at least 10 better GM's in the league...let's just say that had it not been for his relationship with Snyder and his ties to Philly...he wouldn't be the GM there today...again, before I get flamed...I don't think he stinks, just that he gets too much mention when speaking of best GM's in the league
But he was VP/GM of two other teams too

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Old
09-12-2005, 11:21 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mothra
But he was VP/GM of two other teams too
That's fine...I still think he's overrated...he's a good Gm, just not a great one IMO

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09-12-2005, 11:42 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
That's fine...I still think he's overrated...he's a good Gm, just not a great one IMO
And that too is fine, as an opinion.....but it seemed like you were saying he wouldnt be a GM if he did not have the relationship he has with the Snyders....and seeing how he has held high positions with other teams I think that is incorrect.

As a GM he has lead at least 2 franchises to the Finals.....and in Florida it can be argued that he layed the foundation for a 3rd

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09-12-2005, 11:53 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
And that too is fine, as an opinion.....but it seemed like you were saying he wouldnt be a GM if he did not have the relationship he has with the Snyders....and seeing how he has held high positions with other teams I think that is incorrect.

As a GM he has lead at least 2 franchises to the Finals.....and in Florida it can be argued that he layed the foundation for a 3rd
What I meant that had it not been for his relationship with Snyder, he wouldn't be in Philly anymore...maybe it's just me...but looking at the teams the Flyers have had for the past 10 years, it's inexcusable to have only 1 finals showing (a sweep at that) for the amount of quality teams they've had...they haven't had a single season under 93pts the last 10yrs...

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09-12-2005, 11:58 AM
  #92
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What's the guy suppose to say? Of course he is going to say positive things about the players he just acquired. You could make the exact same thread about the 29 other GM's in the NHL except most of their team's wouldn't have the same continued success as the Flyers.

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Old
09-12-2005, 12:09 PM
  #93
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I'm not a Clarke (the GM) fan, but I think he's really taking a beating here, and more so than he deserves.

If GMs are measured on Cup wins, then you can pretty much take out the top 5 GMs in the league, and the rest would all be considered losers.

Clarke has made some questionable moves in the past... the Oates trade was bad, but his hands were tied as well... Washington took him for a ride because they knew they could. But overall, Clarke's work should be measured in what he's done now, and not what he's done a few years ago. If we are measuring GMs on what they've done over the course of their career, and anyone who mentions Sather as a bad GM is out to lunch!! The guy has 5 Cups in Edmonton, and was the architect in taking an expansion team to the top of the toughest hockey league in the world - and keeping them there. He brought in his talent through the draft and kept on building a great team there... what he's done in the past few years has turned that reputation of arguably one of the top GMs of all time, into one that is now considered worthless.

So we are measuring Sather for what he's done as the Rangers GM, why not measure Clarke for the team that he has put together *today*?

Going into a new CBA, the Flyers have a contender. They are a team that attracts top talent (like Forsberg), and are still positioned today to compete for the Cup, and have arguably gotten better through the CBA changes, whereas most of the big market teams have had to see cutbacks due to a lowering salary structure.

He's also got a great pipepline of talent coming up.... credit the scouting staff for the job there, but the scouting staff are still hired by the GM, so obviously he's done something right there.

The Flyers also have one of the more reputable coaches in the league as well - again Clarke as the GM brought in a quality guy at a key position for the franchise.

Overall, the moves that Clarke has done has only helped the team *today* to be more of a contender, while most teams that had a top 10 budget have seen cuts under the new CBA, this one has seen improvements.

Clarke might be overrated - but that's a personality that he's created... he might not be the smartest GM around... he might have easier things to work with, working in a big market environment... he might have gotten lucky by making a few of his moves and seeing guys like Fedotenko turn into an NHLer after being signed as a FA tryout, and then flipped for Pitkanen, or have a guy like Forsberg drop in his lap.

Whatever the excuses, the Flyers are one of the top contenders in the league... they have a pipeline of young quality players that will make it easier for them to stay within budget restrictions forced by the new CBA. They were a top 10 payroll team, that adjusted under the new salary cap, and have arguably become a bigger Cup contender than they were with their top 10 payrolls in the past.

And Clarke is the GM that has been at the helm during this transition.

Like him or hate him - and personally, like I said, I'm not a fan, you have to give credit were credit is due... he's positioned the Flyers as well as any GM could have given the adjustments he's been forced to make due to the cap. In my books, he's proven to be one of the more successful GMs so far making the transition from the old system to the new one... whether he remains as one of the successful GMs under the new CBA era - well that every GM still has to prove. He's certainly earned the benefit of the doubt in my books by the successful adjustments he's made during this past offseason to actually add to his team, while seeing other top payroll teams lose key players and still struggling to lock up others in their core.

I know there are biases around every player, coach, GM and anything else related to a team that we don't like... but if you're serious about analyzing someone without the biases, then you have to give Clarke credit here for the team he's setup going into a new CBA. Every GM - even Lou, largely considered the best in the game - has a lot to prove, if he can be successful under a new system... but so far, Clarke's done some pretty good things, and the Flyers have a legit top contender, stronger than the year before... how many teams that had payrolls of over $45mill and had to make cutbacks to adjust to the new CBA, could claim that?

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Old
09-12-2005, 12:16 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
What I meant that had it not been for his relationship with Snyder, he wouldn't be in Philly anymore...maybe it's just me...but looking at the teams the Flyers have had for the past 10 years, it's inexcusable to have only 1 finals showing (a sweep at that) for the amount of quality teams they've had...they haven't had a single season under 93pts the last 10yrs...
Think about that last statement

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09-12-2005, 12:30 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Mothra
Think about that last statement
I have...and I understand that in large part, credit goes to the work that Clark has done (which is why I think he's a good GM) however, why do they only have 1 finals sweep to show for it?

How long is Bobby Clark's leash? let's say the Flyers have great teams for the next 5 years but still never sip from the Cup?

Stanley Cups aren't necessarily what makes a good and great GM...but when you have great teams, after a certain period of time, it's time to see results...a team could win 10 Presidents Cups in a row, and I guarantee you the fans won't be happy forever...

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09-12-2005, 12:44 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
I have...and I understand that in large part, credit goes to the work that Clark has done (which is why I think he's a good GM) however, why do they only have 1 finals sweep to show for it?

How long is Bobby Clark's leash? let's say the Flyers have great teams for the next 5 years but still never sip from the Cup?

Stanley Cups aren't necessarily what makes a good and great GM...but when you have great teams, after a certain period of time, it's time to see results...a team could win 10 Presidents Cups in a row, and I guarantee you the fans won't be happy forever...

Well...we are not disagreeing on much, if anything......I dont think he is the best or anything....but it seems like some are beating on him unfairly. He is not a very likable guy...so maybe thats part of it......just look at the comedy of some of the posts, blaming him for bad trades he didnt even make...that sort of thing.

I would say that they have never had the best team in the East during the last 10 years....or at least not the clear cut favorite

during that span they have....

reached the Conference Finals or Finals 4 times

The teams that they have lost to have advanced to at least the Conference Finals 5 times

I kinda breezed through looking that up so I hope its correct.....but again, I dont think we disagree on much here......I dont believe he deserves to be relieved of duty however

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Old
09-12-2005, 01:07 PM
  #97
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i agree. Many bash the guy, but getting a kid like pitkanen for a decent roster player (hey i know he helped tampa a ton, it worked out then) and more picks, traded lindros and got one of there best defensemen... hes made some smart moves, you gotta give him some credit, yes a ton have been bad, but a ton have been good... oates trade was straight up brutal, cant lie. Kapanen trade should have been better but kappy just cant get it going.. all in all i aint laughing at the guy, he works hard to get things done
The Oates trade turns out to be for Oullette and three busts.

Clarke already had a young goalie (Nittymaki) in the pipeline and could spare the
draft-picks. When you feel you have a chance at the Cup, you go for it.

I don't think Ranger fans could care less that Weight, Marchant, and Amonte were
traded for Tikkanen, MacTavish, Noonan and Matteau. They got their parade and it can't ever be taken away from them.

Clarke seems to have gotten off his fetish for trading for big huge forwards and is finally addressing other areas of the team.

I look at his free-agent signings and contrast it with Kevin Lowe's drafting this year.
Their outlook on where the game is going are at polar opposites, and they can't
both be right.....................

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Old
09-12-2005, 01:27 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by projexns

The Oates trade turns out to be for Oullette and three busts.
I believe this to be a little inaccurate.....pretty sure one of the pics was used in trade to move up and select Semin

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Old
09-12-2005, 01:44 PM
  #99
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I guess people still dont realize that the Flyers lost their top 2 centers, days before the trade deadline, were fighting for playoff positioning and had no idea for sure how long they long they were going to be out. So any team trading with the Flyers whether his name was Bobby Clarke or whoever , were going to take the Flyers, since the Flyers were in a desperate situation.
I think believe Marty Murray would have been the #1 center after the injuries had a deal not been done.

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09-12-2005, 01:54 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Mothra
I believe this to be a little inaccurate.....pretty sure one of the pics was used in trade to move up and select Semin

Go to TSN's web-site and click on Oullette's profile. The site does a good job of
tracking what players the draft picks became. In this case the picks were used to
draft Krestanovich, Daigneault, and Vagner.

Heck, the Flyers even got a compensatory pick for losing Oates to free-agency.
The #85 pick in the 2003 draft which they used to draft d-man Alexandre Picard.
Right now the trade seems to boil down to Ouellette for Picard. Plus the Flyers got
to rent Oates for a playoff run (which came about 68 goals short of a Cup........)

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