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[CBJ/MTL] Wisniewski to Jackets for 5th (he signed with Columbus)

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Old
07-02-2011, 04:58 PM
  #126
budd99
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Reading most habs fans here over the past days really made me realize how most really think very little about the management. Most didn't even give them a chance before July 1st and within the first 30min were already raging about how we lost Wiz and Gauthier had no vision so pretty much didn't know what he was doing (if he was even doing anything at all).
Habs fans on this board really disappointed me today. I knew a lot of them were too emotional, but today was quite disturbing.
Why does Kriss E always have the most levelheaded posts.

People seem to think Gauthier makes decisions on a whim. I am pretty sure every decision he has made so far with regards to free agency has been thought of for months and discussed with every possible advisor he has.

I don't understand how quickly people are to judge when they have absolutely zero of the information Gauthier is privy to.

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07-02-2011, 05:12 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You don't make decisions about improving your team based on what will happen next year. There are a million things you could do to ensure you lock PK up. It's barely a concern at all. What you think PK deserves doesn't really matter and I doubt PK is sitting home thinking he needs more cash than Wiz, he's a bright boy and understands the economics involved, I'm sure.
That's not the point I was bringing up, PK is simply an example as he's set to become a RFA next year. We could have used anybody else. Point was to say if the mentality that X player is definitely worth more than Y player on your team who's already overpaid is applied, then you're just setting yourself up to make overpayment after overpayment. Not quite the strategy I want my GM to follow.

I don't care if Spacek was moved, I wouldn't want Wiz at 5M, just like I didn't want Souray at that price.

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I actually like PG so far quite a bit, I'm not really sure what you're so upset about, but to me the difference between Wiz and Spacek is what could separate winners from losers. It's a small criticism, that's all. I still think we're short a top dman though. Weber hasn't proved he is ready to take on a full time roll and Yemelin is a question mark. I don't feel comfortable with the guys we have signed.
I'm not upset about anything. I just find the constant criticism (I consider claiming him not to be as proactive as other GMs in trying to move a player, despite not knowing anything of what goes on behind closed door, to be criticism) annoying.
I also said I wasn't particularly aiming this at you. Some of the reactions from fans prior to the Cole signing was flat out disturbing.

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You support every decision anyways
, so I'm not surprised you're doing so again. You were an advocate of getting younger and more mobile on the back end, it never happened. If we get O'Brien, I think PG will have addressed most of our needs. He's still got time, but I think the wiz was a very valuable player to our team and doubt Cole will have the impact Wiz had. We'll see.
I don't support every decision. This is another misconceived opinion of you towards me, just like you proved to have in the UFC thread.

I criticized management over multiple things. The treatment of SK, I wanted to wait (God Forbid right?) before jumping at Gainey's throat for the Gomez deal, in retrospect, it's obviously a horrible one, didn't want Lats traded, didn't think we got the better asset in that trade, didn't want Pouliot to be let go, I didn't want him to be qualified because I thought we could re-sign him at a cheaper price, but am disappointing we gave up on him, didn't want Gill back, disappointed with Lappy being moved, etc..

There are plenty of things I disagree with, I just don't constantly nag at them and then say this or that about management. Doing so would turn me into a whiner which I am not.

As for us not getting a young D corps...
Out: Mara 31, Sopel 34, Hammer 37
In: Markov 32, Gorges 26, Emelin 25.

Math never was my strong suit but I'm pretty sure we got younger. I'm still hoping we bring in Kaberle, so that would make it better and younger even more. We can do it even without moving Spacek, but it would be great if we did.

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07-02-2011, 05:33 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's not the point I was bringing up, PK is simply an example as he's set to become a RFA next year. We could have used anybody else. Point was to say if the mentality that X player is definitely worth more than Y player on your team who's already overpaid is applied, then you're just setting yourself up to make overpayment after overpayment. Not quite the strategy I want my GM to follow.

I don't care if Spacek was moved, I wouldn't want Wiz at 5M, just like I didn't want Souray at that price.


I'm not upset about anything. I just find the constant criticism (I consider claiming him not to be as proactive as other GMs in trying to move a player, despite not knowing anything of what goes on behind closed door, to be criticism) annoying.
I also said I wasn't particularly aiming this at you. Some of the reactions from fans prior to the Cole signing was flat out disturbing.



I don't support every decision. This is another misconceived opinion of you towards me, just like you proved to have in the UFC thread.

I criticized management over multiple things. The treatment of SK, I wanted to wait (God Forbid right?) before jumping at Gainey's throat for the Gomez deal, in retrospect, it's obviously a horrible one, didn't want Lats traded, didn't think we got the better asset in that trade, didn't want Pouliot to be let go, I didn't want him to be qualified because I thought we could re-sign him at a cheaper price, but am disappointing we gave up on him, didn't want Gill back, disappointed with Lappy being moved, etc..

There are plenty of things I disagree with, I just don't constantly nag at them and then say this or that about management. Doing so would turn me into a whiner which I am not.

As for us not getting a young D corps...
Out: Mara 31, Sopel 34, Hammer 37
In: Markov 32, Gorges 26, Emelin 25.

Math never was my strong suit but I'm pretty sure we got younger. I'm still hoping we bring in Kaberle, so that would make it better and younger even more. We can do it even without moving Spacek, but it would be great if we did.
2 of which were never regulars on our roster, they were bandaids, so no I don't consider us getting younger. If these are the guys you were worried about replacing that's too bad.

We need another D, I'm not being critical of PG. I truly believe Hammers minutes need to be replaced by someone, that is it.

Wiz over kaberle every day of the week. Kaberle doesn't fit at all imo.

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07-02-2011, 05:34 PM
  #129
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You're not really going deep enough. I don't care if they say they didn't want him. What's important is the reasons they give.
If it's because they felt he asked for too much, then that's understandable.
If it's because they felt Markov is the better Dman (obviously he is) and rather take a gamble with his health than overpay for a one dimensional D, then, again, it's understandable.
If it's because they felt comfortable enough with the D that they wanted to focus on offense first, and then perhaps get a depth signing on D when the dust settles, then that's also understandable.

Gauthier didn't say he didn't want Wiz because he thought he was crap and not important.

Reading most habs fans here over the past days really made me realize how most really think very little about the management. Most didn't even give them a chance before July 1st and within the first 30min were already raging about how we lost Wiz and Gauthier had no vision so pretty much didn't know what he was doing (if he was even doing anything at all).
Habs fans on this board really disappointed me today. I knew a lot of them were too emotional, but today was quite disturbing.

Management had meetings and identified needs. Obviously they aimed (perhaps still are) that aimed those needs and fit the requirements.


Wiz filled the void Markov left. Markov is back. There is no more void.



You do realize Gauthier could have called the camp to inquire what the asking price was, and decided it was too far off to even be worthy of discussing?
Why do fans automatically assume the absolute worse from our GM?
I agree with this. Posting less on this board made me realize that most people here overreact, and are way to emotional to think about things objectively.

But I'd rather keep Wiz over signing someone like Cole. I know they play different positions, but the money would be the same. The whole "building from the net out" plan was a good plan, and having Markov, Wiz, Subban and Gorges on your blue line is insane. Also, Cole might end up like Andrei, so I don't really see that move being that good of a one. I'm still happy we added some offence, but like I said, a good defensemen is better than a wildcard forward.

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Old
07-02-2011, 05:46 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
2 of which were never regulars on our roster, they were bandaids, so no I don't consider us getting younger. If these are the guys you were worried about replacing that's too bad.

We need another D, I'm not being critical of PG. I truly believe Hammers minutes need to be replaced by someone, that is it.

Wiz over kaberle every day of the week. Kaberle doesn't fit at all imo.
Kaberle is as close as you'll ever get to having a replica of Markov. He's been overly criticized since leaving the Leafs and a lot of it has been exaggerated imo. He's still a great Dman and better all around than Wiz. The good thing about his criticism is that it might actually force him to accept cheaper deals than he'd probably hoped.

Hammer was a regular and Sopel was used as a regular as well when he joined, Mara wasn't too old and he played 53GP. It's not so much that they were old, Lidstrom is old, I'd take him any day, but it's the fact that they were slow. I said I didn't want Gill back, having one slower old veteran didn't bother me. Now we have two. I won't cry over it, and like I said, there's still a possibility he'll be moved, I just don't know if Gauthier wants to move him at this point.

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07-02-2011, 07:49 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Kaberle is as close as you'll ever get to having a replica of Markov. He's been overly criticized since leaving the Leafs and a lot of it has been exaggerated imo. He's still a great Dman and better all around than Wiz. The good thing about his criticism is that it might actually force him to accept cheaper deals than he'd probably hoped.

Hammer was a regular and Sopel was used as a regular as well when he joined, Mara wasn't too old and he played 53GP. It's not so much that they were old, Lidstrom is old, I'd take him any day, but it's the fact that they were slow. I said I didn't want Gill back, having one slower old veteran didn't bother me. Now we have two. I won't cry over it, and like I said, there's still a possibility he'll be moved, I just don't know if Gauthier wants to move him at this point.
I don't really see kabs as anything close to Markov, two different levels here. The habs need some toughness on the back end. I want nothing to do with Kaberle.

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07-02-2011, 08:28 PM
  #132
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Potential was.............

Markov - Wiz
Hamr - Subban
Emelin - Weber - Spacek - Diaz

Lots of competition for roster spots.

Today.........

Markov - Gorges / ???
Gill / ??? - Subban
Who Knows

Not to much competition for a spot

This D is an injury away from really not being good. But the Habs have cap space.

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07-02-2011, 09:45 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Potential was.............

Markov - Wiz
Hamr - Subban
Emelin - Weber - Spacek - Diaz

Lots of competition for roster spots.

Today.........

Markov - Gorges / ???
Gill / ??? - Subban
Who Knows

Not to much competition for a spot

This D is an injury away from really not being good. But the Habs have cap space.
They also have a 2nd round pick.

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Old
07-03-2011, 12:56 AM
  #134
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I agree with this. Posting less on this board made me realize that most people here overreact, and are way to emotional to think about things objectively.

But I'd rather keep Wiz over signing someone like Cole. I know they play different positions, but the money would be the same. The whole "building from the net out" plan was a good plan, and having Markov, Wiz, Subban and Gorges on your blue line is insane. Also, Cole might end up like Andrei, so I don't really see that move being that good of a one. I'm still happy we added some offence, but like I said, a good defensemen is better than a wildcard forward.
Not me personally. Cole isn't a wildcard, you're pretty much guaranteed a 20G scoring pace. Health was always the question surrounding him especially after that hit from Orpik, but he just played a full season for the first time last year so I think it's fair to say he's healed perfectly from it. Injuries are unpredictable, so I don't really count them in unless they are chronic and long.

I think the need of a top 6 winger that actually uses his size to his advantage was obvious. It certainly was a lot more important to fill that then it was to add a PP specialist to an already deep PP performing squad. If Wiz was as solid at ES and more reliable defensively, then I'd agree, but I really don't view Wiz as high as many others here do.
To me he was nothing more than a more reliable MAB with a little more size/toughness. Certainly not worthy of 5M, let alone 5.5, and for that long.

Cole is also overpaid, but like I said, I find he fills a much more important void.

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I don't really see kabs as anything close to Markov, two different levels here. The habs need some toughness on the back end. I want nothing to do with Kaberle.
They are on different levels, Markov is better, but they are essentially the exact same. Good passing skills, good skating abilities, PP QB, defensively reliable, not overly physical, smart with the puck and good vision. Markov is better than Kaby in pretty much every category except for skating where I'd say they're identical.
So ya, on different levels because one is better, but they are of the exact same style.

I would be very happy to add such a player. It would certainly help ease the loss of Markov were we to lose him to injuries again. But if toughness is what they're looking at, I have no issues with that either as long as it's not too much overpaid. If Emelin pans out however, then I expect him to live up to his reputation, and even though I don't think he's particularly a good Dman, I can see the benefit of adding a guy like O'Brien.


In any event, I do trust Gauthier, I think he certainly earned some credit and trust, so I'm hoping he uses the remaining cap space wisely.

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07-03-2011, 04:49 PM
  #135
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well i will miss Wiz, but imo the habs could not afford to commit that kind of cash to him. Subban and price will need new contract next season.

good for Wiz to get a nice contract (although i feel it is a little too much)
good for PG to get a 5th round pick in return at least.

and good for columbus on locking him up. along with the addition of Carter, their team is looking much improved

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07-04-2011, 12:23 AM
  #136
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4.5 would of been good for the team 5.5 would of been good for Wiz. Im a bit dissapointed PG didn't even make an offer at all. 15M for 3 years would have been fair for both sides if Wiz would of refused it then so be it but ya kinda dissapointed an offer wasn't placed.

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07-04-2011, 12:34 AM
  #137
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Not me personally. Cole isn't a wildcard, you're pretty much guaranteed a 20G scoring pace. Health was always the question surrounding him especially after that hit from Orpik, but he just played a full season for the first time last year so I think it's fair to say he's healed perfectly from it. Injuries are unpredictable, so I don't really count them in unless they are chronic and long.

I think the need of a top 6 winger that actually uses his size to his advantage was obvious. It certainly was a lot more important to fill that then it was to add a PP specialist to an already deep PP performing squad. If Wiz was as solid at ES and more reliable defensively, then I'd agree, but I really don't view Wiz as high as many others here do.
To me he was nothing more than a more reliable MAB with a little more size/toughness. Certainly not worthy of 5M, let alone 5.5, and for that long.

Cole is also overpaid, but like I said, I find he fills a much more important void.



They are on different levels, Markov is better, but they are essentially the exact same. Good passing skills, good skating abilities, PP QB, defensively reliable, not overly physical, smart with the puck and good vision. Markov is better than Kaby in pretty much every category except for skating where I'd say they're identical.
So ya, on different levels because one is better, but they are of the exact same style.

I would be very happy to add such a player. It would certainly help ease the loss of Markov were we to lose him to injuries again. But if toughness is what they're looking at, I have no issues with that either as long as it's not too much overpaid. If Emelin pans out however, then I expect him to live up to his reputation, and even though I don't think he's particularly a good Dman, I can see the benefit of adding a guy like O'Brien.


In any event, I do trust Gauthier, I think he certainly earned some credit and trust, so I'm hoping he uses the remaining cap space wisely.
Kaberle's defense isn't nearly on Markov's level. Markov has been the tough opposition guy for years on Montreal's blueline and done pretty well at it. Kaberle hasn't consistently faced top line opponents since 07-08, playing middling opposition in Toronto.

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07-04-2011, 12:38 AM
  #138
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Kaberle's defense isn't nearly on Markov's level. Markov has been the tough opposition guy for years on Montreal's blueline and done pretty well at it. Kaberle hasn't consistently faced top line opponents since 07-08, playing middling opposition in Toronto.
Well we don't need him to face top line opposition in Montreal. He'd be a #4 man here and borderline 5th.

Nothing wrong with that, just like there would have been nothing wrong with keeping Wiz.

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07-04-2011, 12:51 AM
  #139
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Well we don't need him to face top line opposition in Montreal. He'd be a #4 man here and borderline 5th.

Nothing wrong with that, just like there would have been nothing wrong with keeping Wiz.
Maybe. I could see a Kaberle-Gorges pairing working as a second pairing while Markov-Subban is the first. I wouldn't want to commit to the term and salary he's likely to command however. Someone that needs puckmoving is going to pay, look at what Wisniewski got. My bet is to roll the dice on Yemelin while Spacek and Gill hold down the fort for the early part of the year.

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07-04-2011, 01:38 AM
  #140
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Kaberle's defense isn't nearly on Markov's level. Markov has been the tough opposition guy for years on Montreal's blueline and done pretty well at it. Kaberle hasn't consistently faced top line opponents since 07-08, playing middling opposition in Toronto.
Never said Kaby's on Markov's level. I said they are comparable. They play the same style except one is better than the other. I think Kaberle would be Hammer's perfect replacement.
He wouldn't face top opponents either here.

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07-04-2011, 01:42 AM
  #141
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Wiz filled the void Markov left. Markov is back. There is no more void.
In other words, Gauthier just wants to maintain the status quo. There is this thing called improvement that most teams strive for. I think maybe we should too.

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07-04-2011, 01:44 AM
  #142
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That doesn't seem logical to me. What if Wisniewski had wanted $7.5m, and Gauthier wasn't willing to pay up. Would Gauthier be labelled as cheap then, too? Frankly, I'm surprised you think $5.5m for Wisniewski is justifiable. It seems grossly irresponsible to me.
I find having 10 million in unused cap space irresponsible when there is a giant hole in our top 4.

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07-04-2011, 01:49 AM
  #143
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Maybe. I could see a Kaberle-Gorges pairing working as a second pairing while Markov-Subban is the first. I wouldn't want to commit to the term and salary he's likely to command however. Someone that needs puckmoving is going to pay, look at what Wisniewski got. My bet is to roll the dice on Yemelin while Spacek and Gill hold down the fort for the early part of the year.
I don't have a problem with that, but I am hoping our cap space will be spent to the max, with the usual 1-2M of wiggle room.
I'm not too sure Kaberle will get a huge deal. Then again, I thought Richards was going to sign a very bad contract. Guess we never know, but I feel he would have signed already. My gut is telling me he might be headed towards the same path Tanguay went through after going on the open market once he left us.

The only issues I have with our current group is that it's way too unpredictable. Up front, you know you're likely to get some good production. On defense however, we don't know how Spacek will turn out, we don't know if Markov will go down after a few games and I would imagine he'd call it quits if his knee gives in again for the year, we don't know how Emelin will adapt and Weber is still just a prospect that didn't really prove to be top 6 D yet. So, lots of question marks. I think that's why they wanted Hammer back, they knew what to expect from him, he is reliable.

Adding Kaberle would give management more assurance. Having Weber as the 8th D and Spacek as the 7th (or Emelin) would give us incredible depth. I'm eager to see where and for how much Kaby will sign.

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07-04-2011, 01:53 AM
  #144
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In other words, Gauthier just wants to maintain the status quo. There is this thing called improvement that most teams strive for. I think maybe we should too.
We are improving. Markov >>> Wiz. And we get Gorges back to replace Hammer. That alone is an improvement, you're just not seeing it.
You also add Emelin who could be a great addition, time will tell.
There's still time, and like I previously said, I'm hoping we sign Kaberle.

Also, Gauthier proved that he identified needs and went after them. We improved up front, and our goalie tandem should also be better.

So, I don't know why you still say Gauthier wants to maintain status quo. You're clearly upset over Wiz, but let it go man...

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07-04-2011, 02:09 AM
  #145
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I find having 10 million in unused cap space irresponsible when there is a giant hole in our top 4.
There's $10m in unused cap space?

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07-04-2011, 02:21 AM
  #146
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There's $10m in unused cap space?
8.3 and we haven't re-signed Gorges or White yet.

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07-04-2011, 05:43 AM
  #147
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I agree with this. Posting less on this board made me realize that most people here overreact, and are way to emotional to think about things objectively.

But I'd rather keep Wiz over signing someone like Cole. I know they play different positions, but the money would be the same. The whole "building from the net out" plan was a good plan, and having Markov, Wiz, Subban and Gorges on your blue line is insane. Also, Cole might end up like Andrei, so I don't really see that move being that good of a one. I'm still happy we added some offence, but like I said, a good defensemen is better than a wildcard forward.
Different opinions and different takes on teh players.

The only wild factor in Cole is is health, and I don't find it a wild factor. Cole is a good poward forward.

Wiz as the same health wild factor and is way more a wild factor in is play. Wiz could easily become a dud and way overpaid at 5.5.

Cole adresses a much bigger need than Wiz would have ever done for us. With Markov and Subban, Wiz would not be getting the same minutes and PP time, thus paying 5.5 being useless and a waste of cap space as you could not maximize is output. If we need a D to build from the back up, we need a defensive physical stud, not a Wiz.

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07-04-2011, 05:45 AM
  #148
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I find having 10 million in unused cap space irresponsible when there is a giant hole in our top 4.
Stop it with your false comments. Once everyone is signed with a complete roster, we will have 2M max left.

We don't have 10M or room for a Kaberle or any 4M player.

Habs had room for 1 good player, we got Cole, end of story.

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07-04-2011, 06:03 AM
  #149
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I find having 10 million in unused cap space irresponsible when there is a giant hole in our top 4.
First of all we have 9 mil left, and taht's without Gorges and White signed so we have 5 mil left maximum.

Second, we don't have a giant hole in our top 4 after we sign Gorges, but I'd still like another veteran for depth in case Yemelin has growing pains or injuries hit. A guy like Salei for 1 year at 2.5 mil would fit the bill.

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07-04-2011, 06:04 AM
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Crimson Skorpion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKOTW View Post
8.3 and we haven't re-signed Gorges or White yet.
White will make under a million and Gorges will probably see around $2.3 - $2.5 million. Still quite a bit of cap space left to find another D.

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