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Old
07-03-2011, 09:09 PM
  #76
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
But he wouldn't be called upon to play big minutes, that's what you guys don't get. He'd still be playing his 3-4th line minutes. He still wouldn't be putting his team at a disadvantage more than the 19 others above him. That's the point you're missing.
No, I'm not missing any point Habsterix.
The point is that for a 4th liner playing 10min, taking as many penalties as he has is too much and falls into the undisciplined category.

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07-03-2011, 09:33 PM
  #77
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Intimidation has a vey real effect in a physical sport, it affects your play. I posted before how I read Iginla once cruised by the Habs bench and offered to drop them wiyh anyone . Nobody took him up on it. Can you imagine how deflating that was to the team ? Do you not think this affected how we played, especially with Iginla on the ice ? Why is Komisarek so different after being pounded by Lucic ? My guess is he thought of himself as being a big , tough, dont mess with me boy and he was imasculated to a degree by Lucic. Maybe Im wrong.
I dont like goons, waste of a spot. A guy like Chris Nilan though, huge asset.
The other affect having a tough on your team has is it makes the team tougher, again look at the Bruins, I dont think theyd be as tough and hard nosed a team in general without Lucic. So if a squirt runs over Thomas, since its bad form for Lucic to fight a guy much smaller than him, Im sure somebody else will step up.
As somebody else posted, its psychological, but vey real , you get off your game if your intimidated. Now if fighting was comletely banned itd be different, but it isnt.

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07-03-2011, 09:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
Intimidation has a vey real effect in a physical sport, it affects your play. I posted before how I read Iginla once cruised by the Habs bench and offered to drop them wiyh anyone . Nobody took him up on it. Can you imagine how deflating that was to the team ? Do you not think this affected how we played, especially with Iginla on the ice ? Why is Komisarek so different after being pounded by Lucic ? My guess is he thought of himself as being a big , tough, dont mess with me boy and he was imasculated to a degree by Lucic. Maybe Im wrong.
I dont like goons, waste of a spot. A guy like Chris Nilan though, huge asset.
The other affect having a tough on your team has is it makes the team tougher, again look at the Bruins, I dont think theyd be as tough and hard nosed a team in general without Lucic. So if a squirt runs over Thomas, since its bad form for Lucic to fight a guy much smaller than him, Im sure somebody else will step up.
As somebody else posted, its psychological, but vey real , you get off your game if your intimidated. Now if fighting was comletely banned itd be different, but it isnt.
LOL.

This really stopped the multiple cheap shots on Savard and Bergeron, and the recent late hit to Horton's head by Rome.

Sorry, but two of our three smallest players, Cammalleri and Gionta, were our two top playoff goal scorers this year, and our two SMALLEST guys were tops last year. The Habs do not play scared. It's only some fans who seem to have manly adequacy issues.

Now, this is NOT to say that some size is not good, that Cole is not welcome, and Pacioretty won't be good to have back. But the myth of "protection" does not stand the light of scrutiny.

I have nothing against a Dougie Risebrough or Mario Tremblay or Chris Nilan or John Ferguson or even Pierre Bouchard, but Langdon? Odjick? Laraque? Give me a break! And if it is true that Konopka can't play much, then who needs him?


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 07-03-2011 at 10:32 PM.
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07-03-2011, 10:12 PM
  #79
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This is why I think adding a Cooke to the team is ideal. He can play hockey. More importantly, players won't be taking liberties with our players because their afraid that Cooke will retaliate with a cheap shot on one of their good players.

You don't see people taking runs at Crosby or Malkin, you don't need a big enforcer to intimidate, you only need the threat of violence and Cooke is an excellent threat imo.
I'm not sure if Cooke would have been so wild if he didn't have guys like Orpik, Rupp, Engelland and sometimes, Godard, backing him up. Cooke's only 5-11, 205 lbs. There's also the fact that the league gave him a slap on the wrist for the longest time, and only came down on him when, I speculate, it wasn't worth the money lost anymore.

But I agree that Cooke can play hockey. He is a good skater, can play on the penalty kill, and does contribute some nice supplemental scoring.

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07-03-2011, 10:28 PM
  #80
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Seriously people are bringing up Laraque! Did you even watch those games? Laraque was past his days of being a good enforcer and was content to just have staged fights.

Watching the habs get dogpiled last year by the coward bruins who were just picking out the smallest guys they could find was disgusting. If we can grab tough players who can stand up for themselves and their team it will go a long way into deterring cowards from attacking you.



Good post.
I Agree, but you also have to consider the amount of ice time other players spent on the ice compared to Konopka's ice time.. 42 minor penalties on an average of 24 mins per game is not that bad compare to 31 minor pens in 12 mins of ice time per game

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07-03-2011, 10:31 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
I'm not sure if Cooke would have been so wild if he didn't have guys like Orpik, Rupp, Engelland and sometimes, Godard, backing him up. Cooke's only 5-11, 205 lbs. There's also the fact that the league gave him a slap on the wrist for the longest time, and only came down on him when, I speculate, it wasn't worth the money lost anymore.

But I agree that Cooke can play hockey. He is a good skater, can play on the penalty kill, and does contribute some nice supplemental scoring.
Do you realize that Macavoy was being tongue in cheek?

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07-03-2011, 11:43 PM
  #82
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No, I'm not missing any point Habsterix.
The point is that for a 4th liner playing 10min, taking as many penalties as he has is too much and falls into the undisciplined category.
In your books perhaps. Not in mine.

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07-03-2011, 11:47 PM
  #83
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In your books perhaps. Not in mine.
You just want a goonish player. Nothing wrong with that, as you said, we simply have different books.

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07-03-2011, 11:50 PM
  #84
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I Agree, but you also have to consider the amount of ice time other players spent on the ice compared to Konopka's ice time.. 42 minor penalties on an average of 24 mins per game is not that bad compare to 31 minor pens in 12 mins of ice time per game
I don't see your point. Now I know that those players play more than Konopka, but the concern about him "putting his team in trouble, short-handed", or being undisciplined is overblown in my opinion.

What does the ice time have to do with anything, really? Because you're thinking that if he played more, he'd be penalized more? What if he doesn't play more and fulfills his role, by winning faceoffs, hitting and dropping the gloves if and when needed? It's still a number of times the player(s) put their team short handed, no? It's still the same amount of minors. His FO% is at around 57% and he has well over 100 hits!

Would he stop cheap shots against our players? Likely not. Would they be looking over their shoulder if they we thinking of doing something stupid? I would think so!

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You just want a goonish player. Nothing wrong with that, as you said, we simply have different books.
If by goonish you mean someone who will hit, win faceoffs and impose some respect on the ice, by all means.

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07-04-2011, 12:08 AM
  #85
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Regarding Konopka,

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Would he stop cheap shots against our players? Likely not. Would they be looking over their shoulder if they we thinking of doing something stupid? I would think so!
See... I DON'T think so. I don't think the Matt Cookes of the world actually THINK and PLOT to take a cheap shot. I think it is instinctive on their part, based on their playing habits. They have to UNLEARN those habits and a possible 20 game suspension is a much bigger reason to re-think habits than having to endure an occasional fight that one might win, might lose, or just hang on and draw.

Mike Komisarek used to cross-check and mildly cheap-shot players after the whistle all the time. He got beat up by Lucic twice. But he has never been suspended. And guess what? He still cross-checks and cheap-shots guys. You would think that unlearning behaviour that is generally AFTER THE WHISTLE would be fairly easy, at least compared to a "finishing the check" habit, but he still did not, despite two fight losses to Lucic.

Tom Pyatt badly "lost" a fight to Gregory Campbell and his elbow pad weapon, but that did not stop him from still battling for every inch during the Habs first two playoff wins in Boston.

Fights really do not deter anything, and certainly do not deter people with character from playing their game.

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07-04-2011, 01:21 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
If by goonish you mean someone who will hit, win faceoffs and impose some respect on the ice, by all means.
Win faceoffs ya, impose respect, not so sure. Do you know of any team that were scared to play the Islanders? Or thought twice before hitting their players?..I don't.
Also not sure about the hitting part, you know your favorite Habs player had more hits than him last year right? 30more to be exact, and ya, I'm talking about AK

For the record, I'm not against bringing an enforcer type. I'd have gone after Rupp personally, I'm not a particular fan of Konopka. I think, for some reason, fans started to like him after his antics in Long Island. Before that, nobody ever spoke of him.
I'm pretty sure some fans would even welcome Gillies here. That's how desperate some fans are.

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07-04-2011, 02:47 AM
  #87
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Would have loved Rypien on the Habs.
The konopka fanboys are getting the bandwagon going.
I'm convinced he could help our bottom 6.

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07-04-2011, 04:45 AM
  #88
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Wrong.I dont want it to happen in the first place!Big difference.
So if Boston and Pittsburgh can't prevent their players from being injured by cheapshots, can you give us an example of the type of current team you're looking to emulate here?

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07-04-2011, 08:57 AM
  #89
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A guy like Moen becomes a lot more intimidating when he has some backup. If you put Moen on the Bruins he would be a terror.

We just need somebody willing to glare at our opponents with the threat of laying a beatdown. Laraque was an awful hockey player...but he did keep Boston honest most of the time, no doubt in my mind.

Last year they ran roughshod on us without fear. That has to change.

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07-04-2011, 09:00 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Regarding Konopka,



See... I DON'T think so. I don't think the Matt Cookes of the world actually THINK and PLOT to take a cheap shot. I think it is instinctive on their part, based on their playing habits. They have to UNLEARN those habits and a possible 20 game suspension is a much bigger reason to re-think habits than having to endure an occasional fight that one might win, might lose, or just hang on and draw.

Mike Komisarek used to cross-check and mildly cheap-shot players after the whistle all the time. He got beat up by Lucic twice. But he has never been suspended. And guess what? He still cross-checks and cheap-shots guys. You would think that unlearning behaviour that is generally AFTER THE WHISTLE would be fairly easy, at least compared to a "finishing the check" habit, but he still did not, despite two fight losses to Lucic.

Tom Pyatt badly "lost" a fight to Gregory Campbell and his elbow pad weapon, but that did not stop him from still battling for every inch during the Habs first two playoff wins in Boston.

Fights really do not deter anything, and certainly do not deter people with character from playing their game.
Even Vancouver ? The Bruins ate them alive !

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07-04-2011, 09:14 AM
  #91
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It is sad when the players bring up the size/toughness aspect to management but some of the fans still ignore it aswell. As long as the team is constantly on the recieving end of cheapshots they wont be playing their game.

Every other team in the league addresses this situation but the Habs, I forgot that the Habs are the ballerinas of the league. I bet some of the oldtimers are damn ashamed of this team sometimes.

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07-04-2011, 09:19 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
It is sad when the players bring up the size/toughness aspect to management but some of the fans still ignore it aswell. As long as the team is constantly on the recieving end of cheapshots they wont be playing their game.

Every other team in the league addresses this situation but the Habs, I forgot that the Habs are the ballerinas of the league. I bet some of the oldtimers are damn ashamed of this team sometimes.
I am sure they are. same with the old Habs fans like me who saw the Habs settle the score with the Broad Street Bullies in the 70's, and prevail against the Big bad Bruins. They had the tools to respond.

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07-04-2011, 09:39 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Mike Komisarek used to cross-check and mildly cheap-shot players after the whistle all the time. He got beat up by Lucic twice. But he has never been suspended. And guess what? He still cross-checks and cheap-shots guys.
Komisarek has never been the same player after that fight against Lucic, not even close.

Quote:
Fights really do not deter anything, and certainly do not deter people with character from playing their game.
I beg to differ and if you took the worst rule in hockey out (instigator), it would have an even bigger effect. But we've had that discussion and I know where you stand.

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07-04-2011, 09:55 AM
  #94
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Even Vancouver ? The Bruins ate them alive !
Yeah the Bruins really steamrolled the league with their fighters in these playoffs. They only got taken to three game 7s by Montreal, Tampa Bay and Vancouver - three teams built on finesse. Ironically the only team they didn't have trouble with was the team that was too busy trying to outmuscle and overpower them to remember to play hockey - the Flyers.

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07-04-2011, 09:56 AM
  #95
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Komisarek has never been the same since he was separated from Markov, because he's always needed to be babysat so his limitations were covered. It had nothing to do with his fight against Lucic and everything to do with TSN grossly overvaluing the impact of a big, physical defenseman with no puck skills... again.

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07-04-2011, 10:17 AM
  #96
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Let's look in our own backyard here and sign Jimmy Bonneau. He would be cheap and in our system for the past 5 years or so. At 6'3 215+lbs, Im sure he can do it.

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07-04-2011, 10:24 AM
  #97
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All those goons in Boston sure did a good job at stopping Bergeron, Krecji, Savard and Horton from getting concussions.

It also stopped Marchand from getting leveled by Subban etc.

Goons are an entertainment factor that become completely irrelevant when real hockey actually begins (the playoffs).

I don't mind players in the mold of Moen and White, gritty players who can actually play hockey, but all the other guys mentioned in this thread are useless.

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07-04-2011, 10:26 AM
  #98
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LOL.

This really stopped the multiple cheap shots on Savard and Bergeron, and the recent late hit to Horton's head by Rome.

Sorry, but two of our three smallest players, Cammalleri and Gionta, were our two top playoff goal scorers this year, and our two SMALLEST guys were tops last year. The Habs do not play scared. It's only some fans who seem to have manly adequacy issues.

Now, this is NOT to say that some size is not good, that Cole is not welcome, and Pacioretty won't be good to have back. But the myth of "protection" does not stand the light of scrutiny.

I have nothing against a Dougie Risebrough or Mario Tremblay or Chris Nilan or John Ferguson or even Pierre Bouchard, but Langdon? Odjick? Laraque? Give me a break! And if it is true that Konopka can't play much, then who needs him?


Those are here to stay unfortunately and has nothing to do with intimidation. Proctor card some have pull out! I call for someone who can step up to the plate and do well vs guys like Lucid and by doing so, giving there teammate courage.

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All those goons in Boston sure did a good job at stopping Bergeron, Krecji, Savard and Horton from getting concussions.

It also stopped Marchand from getting leveled by Subban etc.

Goons are an entertainment factor that become completely irrelevant when real hockey actually begins (the playoffs).

I don't mind players in the mold of Moen and White, gritty players who can actually play hockey, but all the other guys mentioned in this thread are useless.
100% disagree! Goons like you called them, are there has support, getting the dirty job done or taking one for the team. Dirty shots are there and will stay there for x amount of reason. Having someone who can drop it is only a card you hold and maybe takes Lucid or Iggy out of the game for 5 mins or more. Also, if someone calls out your bench, one that you can put out and take the challenge. Come PO time, fights are few and almost invisible but if I remember in this year PO final, Thornton had a pretty good impact on his bench and didn't have to drop them!

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07-04-2011, 10:35 AM
  #99
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100% disagree! Goons like you called them, are there has support, getting the dirty job done or taking one for the team. Dirty shots are there and will stay there for x amount of reason. Having someone who can drop it is only a card you hold and maybe takes Lucid or Iggy out of the game for 5 mins or more. Also, if someone calls out your bench, one that you can put out and take the challenge. Come PO time, fights are few and almost invisible but if I remember in this year PO final, Thornton had a pretty good impact on his bench and didn't have to drop them!
I said goons were useless, not fighting or toughness. I also followed that up by saying guys like Moen and White are not. We need more of the latter mold, less of the former.

Guys like Thornton fight other goons and other pluggers. That's useless. We witnessed this with Laraque. These guys only fight other goons.

Guys like White/Souray/Moen drop the gloves when they feel they're players have been cheapshoted and we've witnessed them stand up for their teammates when it does happen.

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07-04-2011, 10:41 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
All those goons in Boston sure did a good job at stopping Bergeron, Krecji, Savard and Horton from getting concussions.

It also stopped Marchand from getting leveled by Subban etc.

Goons are an entertainment factor that become completely irrelevant when real hockey actually begins (the playoffs).

I don't mind players in the mold of Moen and White, gritty players who can actually play hockey, but all the other guys mentioned in this thread are useless.
I don't think we need a goon...but a guy that's not afraid of anybody and can still paly a regular shift...Boulton, Winchester etc

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