The flyers would have beaten mtl regardless of who was in net. Leighton was not the decisive factor.
Had he played like Bob and gave up one or two goals per game I'd totally agree... but I personally cannot deny three shutouts over five games in a singe series against a Conference Championship contender.
Leighton my not have been the deciding factor in that the Flyers were playing on all cylinders that series... but a crappy tended series could have changed that real quick... he allowed the team o be able o play as well as they did, just as he forced hem to play a crappy SCF... IMO.
Of course not, I never said that... I just believe that if we are saying the entire team played great against the Habs and therefore we should say that the entire team deserves the credit and Leighton doesn't in spite of three shutouts and only two goals in the four wins... then maybe we shouldn't say Leighton is he reason the Flyers lost the SCF Round even though the entire team played a loosey-goosey bunch of games -- granted the Flyers were pressed to make up for bad goals given... but I'd say the team's D wasn't so great and the top D-men had little left in the tank.
Personally I'd give Leighton BOTH the credit and blame in the two series... and again my original point was that a relatively steady goalie such as Bryz should prevent that from occurring in that manner going forward.
In any case, I don't think this horse should be beaten any longer... and I don't really believe we are that much in disagreement as we agree the Flyers as a team, including Leighton played well in one series and not so much in the other... at least I hope we aren't.
EDIT: And the Flyers did score a lot of goals in the SCF also, BTW.
I thought our skaters played great against the Blackhawks. They went toe to toe with the toughest team to play with in the league.
You critiqued +/- as a defensive stat. Well, there are others... And they show that his solid + had a lot to do with D. +/- is also quite useful when contextualized.
You're absolutely right, it is a useful stat when contextualized. Which is exactly what I said when I replied to the poster who used +/- to support his argument. And there are others that show he is a good defender. And I never said he wasn't good. What I said was that he isn't some amazing defender that will leave this team crippled without him. His scoring will be missed more than his defense. And his defense will not be missed all that much. I'm not really knocking him as a defender. I said from the first post that he isn't bad. The crux of my argument is that his departure from the team will not really be a factor for this team's demise in the playoffs next season, at least not defensively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
The difference between those videos is that 1) its not easy to find clips of good defensive plays and 2) Carter routinely makes good/sound defensive plays, whereas Jody Shelley doesn't routinely score goals.
If a Philadelphia Flyer, any Philadelphia Flyer, shut down Crosby like that, it would be on YouTube. It's a highlight. You know what would be harder to find than a good defensive clip? A bad defensive clip. Not just of Carter but of anyone. YouTube is filled with highlight clips. I could probably find a SportsCenter worthy play of any player on YouTube.
Had he played like Bob and gave up one or two goals per game I'd totally agree... but I personally cannot deny three shutouts over five games in a singe series against a Conference Championship contender.
Leighton my not have been the deciding factor in that the Flyers were playing on all cylinders that series... but a crappy tended series could have changed that real quick... he allowed the team o be able o play as well as they did, just as he forced hem to play a crappy SCF... IMO.
Had more to do with Montreal being a midget team with a crappy offense.
You're absolutely right, it is a useful stat when contextualized. Which is exactly what I said when I replied to the poster who used +/- to support his argument. And there are others that show he is a good defender. And I never said he wasn't good. What I said was that he isn't some amazing defender that will leave this team crippled without him. His scoring will be missed more than his defense. And his defense will not be missed all that much. I'm not really knocking him as a defender. I said from the first post that he isn't bad. The crux of my argument is that his departure from the team will not really be a factor for this team's demise in the playoffs next season, at least not defensively.
it's fun watching you try and walk this one back.
Carter played great defense last year, and did a ton to keep Giroux's line above water defensively. He is going to be missed. That is without getting into how crap we are going to be on draws.
You're absolutely right, it is a useful stat when contextualized. Which is exactly what I said when I replied to the poster who used +/- to support his argument. And there are others that show he is a good defender. And I never said he wasn't good. What I said was that he isn't some amazing defender that will leave this team crippled without him. His scoring will be missed more than his defense. And his defense will not be missed all that much. I'm not really knocking him as a defender. I said from the first post that he isn't bad. The crux of my argument is that his departure from the team will not really be a factor for this team's demise in the playoffs next season, at least not defensively.
If a Philadelphia Flyer, any Philadelphia Flyer, shut down Crosby like that, it would be on YouTube. It's a highlight. You know what would be harder to find than a good defensive clip? A bad defensive clip. Not just of Carter but of anyone. YouTube is filled with highlight clips. I could probably find a SportsCenter worthy play of any player on YouTube.
Giroux and JVR will miss his defense big time when they have Jagr on that RW.
Carter played great defense last year, and did a ton to keep Giroux's line above water defensively. He is going to be missed. That is without getting into how crap we are going to be on draws.
I thought our skaters played great against the Blackhawks. They went toe to toe with the toughest team to play with in the league.
IDK, I guess I just believe you win as a team and you lose as a team... and all facets determine what the other can do, and how far they can go... IMO the Forwards allow a goalie to pitch a SO, but as proven this season with Bob and Boosh a goalie doesn't always take advantage of it.
I guess I just can't ignore three shutouts and chalk them up as being a product of the skaters without giving much credit to the goalie... he made all he saves he should make, and I would venture to say a few that we would not have got on him if he let in -- although being that we are talking about Leighton and we are Flyers fans, I'm not so sure about my last statement.
How am I trying to walk this one back? You are arguing with me about something I never said. Look at the first post I wrote that you responded to. And tell me where I called Carter out or anything like that? I said he wasn't all that great, which he wasn't. But instead you are acting like I said Jody Shelley is better than him.
Quote:
Carter played great defense last year, and did a ton to keep Giroux's line above water defensively. He is going to be missed. That is without getting into how crap we are going to be on draws.
Let's see if that works for what you said here:
Jeff Carter is nowhere near the best faceoff guy in the league.
See how I did that? You made a reference to Jeff Carter being good on draws like I made a reference to him being not so great on defense. So I replied to your post as if you said Jeff Carter is great on faceoffs like you replied to my post as if I said that Jeff Carter was terrible on defense. It doesn't make sense for me to reply to your post in this manner, just like it doesn't make sense for you to reply to my post in the manner that you replied to mine.
How am I trying to walk this one back? You are arguing with me about something I never said. Look at the first post I wrote that you responded to. And tell me where I called Carter out or anything like that? I said he wasn't all that great, which he wasn't. But instead you are acting like I said Jody Shelley is better than him.
Let's see if that works for what you said here:
Jeff Carter is nowhere near the best faceoff guy in the league.
See how I did that? You made a reference to Jeff Carter being good on draws like I made a reference to him being not so great on defense. So I replied to your post as if you said Jeff Carter is great on faceoffs like you replied to my post as if I said that Jeff Carter was terrible on defense. It doesn't make sense for me to reply to your post in this manner, just like it doesn't make sense for you to reply to my post in the manner that you replied to mine.
He was the best on this team by a decent margin (and hasnt been replaced)....unless you want to count the small samples by Leino and Nodl
How am I trying to walk this one back? You are arguing with me about something I never said. Look at the first post I wrote that you responded to. And tell me where I called Carter out or anything like that? I said he wasn't all that great, which he wasn't. But instead you are acting like I said Jody Shelley is better than him.
Let's see if that works for what you said here:
Jeff Carter is nowhere near the best faceoff guy in the league.
See how I did that? You made a reference to Jeff Carter being good on draws like I made a reference to him being not so great on defense. So I replied to your post as if you said Jeff Carter is great on faceoffs like you replied to my post as if I said that Jeff Carter was terrible on defense. It doesn't make sense for me to reply to your post in this manner, just like it doesn't make sense for you to reply to my post in the manner that you replied to mine.
Dude, if you don't think your original post wasn't a bit of a slight to Jeff Carter's defensive skills, then you need to learn to use the English language a bit better. You basically said he was "meh" and wouldn't be missed. People have taken you to task on that characterization of his game. Nor is it just me, so you can stop right there with making it seem like I'm the only one characterizing your post as backhanded at best.
The fact is that he is a very good defensive player, and that has been proven and now you are trying to make it seem like you weren't dismissing his defense before.
IDK, I guess I just believe you win as a team and you lose as a team... and all facets determine what the other can do, and how far they can go... IMO the Forwards allow a goalie to pitch a SO, but as proven this season with Bob and Boosh a goalie doesn't always take advantage of it.
I guess I just can't ignore three shutouts and chalk them up as being a product of the skaters without giving much credit to the goalie... he made all he saves he should make, and I would venture to say a few that we would not have got on him if he let in -- although being that we are talking about Leighton and we are Flyers fans, I'm not so sure about my last statement.
You do win and lose as a team. And teams win and lose for various reasons tha devolve onto their constituent parts.
You do win and lose as a team. And teams win and lose for various reasons that devolve onto their constituent parts.
And my original point was that the Flyers will be a better contending team due to a better balance of those parts with the goal strengthened so greatly... provided the forwards do not fall back too greatly with their changes.
Dude, if you don't think your original post wasn't a bit of a slight to Jeff Carter's defensive skills, then you need to learn to use the English language a bit better. You basically said he was "meh" and wouldn't be missed. People have taken you to task on that characterization of his game. Nor is it just me, so you can stop right there with making it seem like I'm the only one characterizing your post as backhanded at best.
The fact is that he is a very good defensive player, and that has been proven and now you are trying to make it seem like you weren't dismissing his defense before.
Just because I said he wasn't that great and won't be missed defensively, doesn't mean that I am taking a shot at him. The Flyers are losing a much better defensive player in Mike Richards. The Flyers are getting a top tier goalie and at least one solid defensive player in Wayne Simmonds (maybe two if you count Talbot, but I think since he is likely going to be getting fourth line minutes we won't count him). Hence, my statement that Carter is not that great defensively and he won't be missed. Let's pick this conversation up in May and see if people are really freaking out about the absence of Carter's defense.
Carter wasn't Richards defensively, but he was still very, very, very good at it. We'll see that when we're going from Richards and Carter being given defensive tasks to Giroux and Briere/Schenn being given defensive tasks.
You guys probably don't want me on these boards because apparently Penguins fans think that but I will add my opinion.
I think to expect a 39 year old to be dominant can be foolish but I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised on just how good Jagr will be.
You guys don't expect more than 20 goals, I say he gets 35. You guys expect 60 Pts, I say PPG.
The team has a better goalie now and they have a healthy Pronger who is now the leader. He will play better because of it and the Flyers will be better opposite of the expectations.
I know it was 2005-06 and Jagr was 34 not 39 but go look at the New York Rangers then. They were picked to finish last by almost everyone and to play for the 1st pick and then Jagr promised on the opening of training camp that they were going to be a playoff team, he went out and scored 123 Pts and brought them to the playoffs.
A healthy, fresh, void of wear and tear, motivated Jagr will be the most dominant Flyer since Lindros.
You do realize that was 5 years ago right? He is nearly 40 and you are banking on him being dominant? Good luck with that!
Winning one round (in 7 very shaky games) and getting swept out of the next round was not an impressive performance, especially for a 2 seed. That high seed was won in the first four months of the season, as well.
