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OT: KHL expands into the European Union

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Old
07-04-2011, 11:17 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
Players in the NHL currently do that, so I don't see how travel all of a sudden becomes a detriment.
To an extent. I guess they can have a road trip out into Eastern Europe, like NHL teams have those long road trips out West or out East depending where they're from. But to have a Swedish or Finnish team to bounce around those countries would be rough. I can't see it. That's just me. Who'd want to do that? I get you can be getting paid well, but that's just a pain in the ass.

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07-04-2011, 11:22 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
True. But the doors are open for any player to go to the KHL when they want if it they're not under contract.

I really don't see the KHL as dangerous as some think.
They have the money, players don't pay taxes, and if the KHL can secure more countries, it could very well lead players to second-guess the NHL: Play in a foreign market (NHL) or play at home (KHL)?

With our European friends who enjoy the NHL, they have problems when it comes to the timezones: 5-9 hour differential. With the KHL, you're only looking at most a 3 hour differential, which is what we have now with East and West Coast teams.

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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
To an extent. I guess they can have a road trip out into Eastern Europe, like NHL teams have those long road trips out West or out East depending where they're from. But to have a Swedish or Finnish team to bounce around those countries would be rough. I can't see it. That's just me. Who'd want to do that? I get you can be getting paid well, but that's just a pain in the ass.
Like I said, you have foreign players playing here where the travel is about the same. You have Swedish players playing all the way in Vancouver, may travel as far East to Montreal or New York, and travel all the way South to Sunrise or Tampa Bay.

The travel would be the same, but now they have the opportunity of playing 30 plus games at "home."

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07-04-2011, 11:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
They have the money, players don't pay taxes, and if the KHL can secure more countries, it could very well lead players to second-guess the NHL: Play in a foreign market (NHL) or play at home (KHL)?
They have money, then Kovalchuk would of went home and gotten paid. Ovechkin would be going. Datsyuk would be going.

If those Euro's stay in Europe, yes, it'd suck because I love Swedish players, but it won't be devestating to the NHL. They'd survive with homegrown (USA and Canada players). They did before the Europeans started playing NHL hockey.

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With our European friends who enjoy the NHL, they have problems when it comes to the timezones: 5-9 hour differential. With the KHL, you're only looking at most a 3 hour differential, which is what we have now with East and West Coast teams.
I see what you're saying, but I still see it a little different.

They'll adjust to where they play whether it's the east coast or west in the States or Canada.

Going from so many different countries would just be more of a nuisance. Wouldn't they have to go through customs?

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07-04-2011, 11:54 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
They have money, then Kovalchuk would of went home and gotten paid. Ovechkin would be going. Datsyuk would be going.

If those Euro's stay in Europe, yes, it'd suck because I love Swedish players, but it won't be devestating to the NHL. They'd survive with homegrown (USA and Canada players). They did before the Europeans started playing NHL hockey.
It hasn't stopped a few players from not honoring their contracts and bolting to the KHL. Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, and Datsyuk have been dealt a great hand, they are the face for their respective teams, but what if they played for teams that were under par? There's nothing stopping these players from not respecting their contracts and you have had players finishing their careers in the KHL as opposed to the NHL.

Could the NHL survive without Euro players? Sure, but you would have to admit that the product would become watered-down, and it would push the talent level a few decades back.


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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
I see what you're saying, but I still see it a little different.

They'll adjust to where they play whether it's the east coast or west in the States or Canada.

Going from so many different countries would just be more of a nuisance. Wouldn't they have to go through customs?
The one country where going through customs is a hassle is Russia but when it comes to the KHL teams, they are very lax in that regard.

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07-04-2011, 11:59 PM
  #30
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KHL is still a joke of a league. Some lowlights include a coach fired mid-game, terrible players (nhl scrubs become KHL all-stars) and a god awful safety record.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...al-League.html

Quote:
According to reports, the medical staff for Dinamo responded immediately and was on the ice, but emergency personnel at the Moscow Spartak rink were apparently sitting in the stands and had to be called using the public address system. They took several minutes to arrive at the scene.

It has also been reported that instead of being taken off the ice on a stretcher, Kariya was carted off by trainers and teammates on a soft tarp and that he was taken off the rink through a narrow entrance at the Dinamo bench.
And of course,
Quote:
It was later disclosed that Cherepanov had suffered a heart condition that had gone undetected by the Avangard medical staff, but it was also learned that the ambulance that was supposed to be at the rink had already left and had to be called back and did not arrive until 12 minutes after Cherepanov had collapsed. The battery in the defibrillator at the rink had drained and it took 20 minutes to get Cherepanov to a local hospital.
More stuff: a team didn't compete last year due to financial reasons, and he KHL decided that as a result of the game between Vityaz Chekhov and Avangard Omsk on 9 January 2010 wouldn't count due to a mass brawl which left neither team having the required number of players to continue, the game would count as a 5-0 defeat for both teams with no points being awarded.


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Old
07-05-2011, 12:07 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
It hasn't stopped a few players from not honoring their contracts and bolting to the KHL. Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, and Datsyuk have been dealt a great hand, they are the face for their respective teams, but what if they played for teams that were under par? There's nothing stopping these players from not respecting their contracts and you have had players finishing their careers in the KHL as opposed to the NHL.
No players that were impressive or with elite talent.

Only one that comes to mind is Jagr. He came back to the NHL and it was reported he took less money. The NHL, as of now, is where it's at for every hockey player in the world. I can't see it changing. Even if the KHL expands into the big hockey countries, it's not going to knock the NHL to #2.

Quote:
The one country where going through customs is a hassle is Russia but when it comes to the KHL teams, they are very lax in that regard.
Not just specifically Russia. What about teams coming from Russia? I can see that being a hinderance. Could be wrong. I'm not sure.

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07-05-2011, 12:16 AM
  #32
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Old
07-05-2011, 12:44 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
Going from so many different countries would just be more of a nuisance. Wouldn't they have to go through customs?
Dude, No TSA The air-travel in the US approaching DDR type levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
The one country where going through customs is a hassle is Russia but when it comes to the KHL teams, they are very lax in that regard.
Putin was recently in Sweden and proclaimed they would change regulations so Swedes would be able to travel to Russia without applying for a visa in advance. I don't think that is related to KHL or hockey in general but it would certainly be favorable if a Swedish club should join.

Btw and Off topic, Inside Scandinavia you don't even have to use a passport to travel between our countries. I wonder what Arizona legislators would say about that


I don't think the KHL is such a big threat, the league is run by Russians, they can't run a business successfully and they make up the rules as they go. All you hear from Swedish players that have played there are horror stories, they have no security AT ALL it's just chaos and the chaos are temporarilly fixed by throwing rubels at the problem. The only upside is the money. The only Swedish players that have good stories about the KHL are the ones currently signed to a KHL team.

There is no chance in hell Swedish teams are getting involved in their league as it looks right now, it would first have to become a real European league with actual rules and regulations not just run by billionaires who decide everything on a whim and I wonder how financially secure the whole thing is. Scandinavian politics, financial and general social security clashes with how the KHL is run on like a thousand levels and I don't think a cooperation is possible at all.

A future European-wide league which would in any way threaten the NHL long term would have to be rooted in Scandinavia and include Swiss and German major clubs as it's core.

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07-05-2011, 01:26 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Well, Slovakian hockey in general has absolutely fallen to pieces in recent years. Their hockey program is in an awful state.

What are the numbers on other nationalities in the NHL? I feel like there's been an increase in Swedes and Finns in recent years. That would account for part of the drop off in numbers of Russians and Czechs. There's also the fact that hockey is still growing in popularity in the States, and our program is growing stronger by the day. And, I'd guess, producing more NHLers.

This is the breakdown year by year that got me thinking about this topic in the first place: http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_Pla...ionalities.php

Sweden has been steady between 5% and 6% for almost 15 years now. There was maybe a 1/10 increase in their total number of players. Finland has been between 2% and 4%, though it fell to 2.5% last year.

Americans, however, are at an all-time high at 24%.

But I am not sure that the increase in Americans explains the fall in East Europeans. I think that the rise of the RSL and then the KHL is a bigger reason.

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07-05-2011, 01:52 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svartgul View Post
Putin was recently in Sweden and proclaimed they would change regulations so Swedes would be able to travel to Russia without applying for a visa in advance. I don't think that is related to KHL or hockey in general but it would certainly be favorable if a Swedish club should join.

Btw and Off topic, Inside Scandinavia you don't even have to use a passport to travel between our countries. I wonder what Arizona legislators would say about that
One of the concerns were teams entering and leaving Russia but people have been saying that the Russians have been lax in that regard.

As for not needing a passport, could you imagine what were to happen if Mexico were allowed entry into the U.S. and Canada like that? Isn't Denmark, as of now, considering stricter rules into coming into the country?


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Originally Posted by svartgul View Post
I don't think the KHL is such a big threat, the league is run by Russians, they can't run a business successfully and they make up the rules as they go. All you hear from Swedish players that have played there are horror stories, they have no security AT ALL it's just chaos and the chaos are temporarilly fixed by throwing rubels at the problem. The only upside is the money. The only Swedish players that have good stories about the KHL are the ones currently signed to a KHL team.

There is no chance in hell Swedish teams are getting involved in their league as it looks right now, it would first have to become a real European league with actual rules and regulations not just run by billionaires who decide everything on a whim and I wonder how financially secure the whole thing is. Scandinavian politics, financial and general social security clashes with how the KHL is run on like a thousand levels and I don't think a cooperation is possible at all.

A future European-wide league which would in any way threaten the NHL long term would have to be rooted in Scandinavia and include Swiss and German major clubs as it's core.
Wasn't the only reason a Swedish team did not get a chance to join the KHL was because the Swedish Ice Hockey Association did not agree to it?

Even with Germany, the only reason they did not join was because Germany has a law put in place that bans a number of foreigners from playing on one team.

Sure, there most certainly is some corruption tied to the KHL but it's not like the NHL is run flawlessly: In place of corruption, we have incompetency, and it's not like the rules in the NHL haven't been changing every season since the lock-out.

Both the KHL and NHL have teams that aren't drawing money, except with the KHL, they most certainly have that option of placing a foreign team in their respective market, and they have the added bonus of already having a fan presence as well as players there.

There still continues to be talks with Sweden, Finland, Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and the Ukraine, and in all likelihood, a few of them are going to budge. Once that happens, I wouldn't be surprised if major changes come about to make the KHL more top notch.

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07-05-2011, 01:57 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
If those two countries joined, Swedish and Finnish players would be on the road all the time. Seriously, they would hardly be home if that would be the reasoning for those players to staying. They'd be bouncing from Russia to Italy to Kazahkstan to Slovakia playing ECHL level teams in Europe.

Unless they do an East-West conference and those teams only meet in the Finals or in the playoffs. This way Swedes/Finns play with the nearby St. Petersburg, Riga and other central European places, while the more eastern cities like Kazakhstan, Kazan, etc would play with each other.

Take a look at the map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontine...ams_in_2010-11

That said, I doubt that the Finns and the Swedes join. But I can definitely see the old Warsaw bloc recreated in hockey. Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Soviet Republics, as well as Italy and maybe Austria.

The league would obviously be worse than the NHL, but not so much worse that it would do no harm. The KHL would be the next best thing and I can definitely see a lot of the NHL role players leaving for the KHL.

If you are Wolski and you can be a star for a (potential) Warsaw team in the KHL vs. being the whipping boy for the Rangers, and the Rangers are only offering you $2 while the KHL is offering you $3, what do you do?

Again, people view the KHL as it is today, but what if the flow of players to Russia improves every year to the point where after 10 years, the KHL makes real progress?

Things are not always static. Just because the 3 year old KHL isn't a competitor today, does not mean that it's not improving and that it won't be a competitor in the future.

The NHL needs to have a plan, that's all I have to say. It's like the U.S. military: it has a plan for fighting all sorts of nations that it will not actually have to fight. But you prepare... just in case.

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07-05-2011, 02:04 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
If those Euro's stay in Europe, yes, it'd suck because I love Swedish players, but it won't be devestating to the NHL. They'd survive with homegrown (USA and Canada players). They did before the Europeans started playing NHL hockey.

Let's remember that the NHL used to be a 22 team league until the Europeans began coming here in the early 90s. The reason the league was expanded was in large part due to the additional talent that allowed for 30 competitive teams.

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07-05-2011, 02:12 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
No players that were impressive or with elite talent.

Only one that comes to mind is Jagr.

Why do you assume that the future will be exactly like the past? The KHL is clearly an improvement over the RSL, which itself was an improvement over whatever league Russia had in the 1990s.

And every year, the KHL get better in terms of quality of players, expansion of teams, media coverage, etc. It's not there yet, but who says that the KHL stops improving and expanding today?

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07-05-2011, 02:20 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by svartgul View Post
Btw and Off topic, Inside Scandinavia you don't even have to use a passport to travel between our countries. I wonder what Arizona legislators would say about that

This is not a political forum, but I just want to make one comment on this: you can't compare Sweden's borders with America's borders.

Sweden borders countries (Finland, Norway, and across the water Germany and Denmark) that are just as wealthy and there is no chance that all of Germany - or at least all the poor people in Germany - will suddenly move to Stockholm. This is why the EU does not allow countries inside the union until they reach a certain level of economic development.

Mexico is not Finland. Whatever the benefits or the detriments of Mexican immigration may be, it is not a comparable situation to the Swedish-Finnish or Swedish-Norwegian border.

Mexican government's "social welfare program" seems to be to send all their poor people to the United States, including by giving them guides on how to illegally cross the border, as well as by giving them id's to be used once they are here.

I suspect that if, say, Moldova or another poor country decided to send the majority its poor people to Sweden, your government's reaction would not be the same as when a tiny percentage of Finns move across the border. Ever wonder why Moldova is not allowed to even discuss EU membership right now? It's because Moldova is poor, though still a bit wealthier than Mexico, and the Europeans do not want to deal with other nations' problems.


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07-05-2011, 02:46 AM
  #40
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Until Swedish Elite League teams begin to join the KHL, the KHL's profile will remain the same, no matter what other European clubs join. Outside of Russia, the only serious clubs are the Swedish (and to a lesser extent, the Finnish) teams. Slovakia, Czech, Germany, Switzerland, Latvia, Italy (lol)...these are not the kind of operations that are going to change much for the KHL.

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07-05-2011, 02:48 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by svartgul View Post
A future European-wide league which would in any way threaten the NHL long term would have to be rooted in Scandinavia and include Swiss and German major clubs as it's core.
I was thinking more in terms of a Central European Hockey League. Based on the quality of hockey, wealth of the country and population, this is what I came up with.

Three teams each:

Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic
Germany
Switzerland

Two teams each:

Norway
Italy
Austria
Slovakia
France

One team each:

Denmark
Poland
Latvia
Hungary
Slovenia

That's 30 teams, all of which are based in Central Europe, at most one time zone away from each other. If Europe ever got its act together, this could be a real threat. Playing in Copenhagen or Florence may not be a bad "other option" to playing in Calgary or Edmonton, if the league is decent.


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07-05-2011, 02:54 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Until Swedish Elite League teams begin to join the KHL, the KHL's profile will remain the same, no matter what other European clubs join. Outside of Russia, the only serious clubs are the Swedish (and to a lesser extent, the Finnish) teams. Slovakia, Czech, Germany, Switzerland, Latvia, Italy (lol)...these are not the kind of operations that are going to change much for the KHL.

The significance of Italy is that it's the first Western country outside of the old Warsaw Pact to join. It may not have a great hockey program, but it's a country with money. As Italian and other Western money (advertising, etc.) starts flowing into the KHL, the league will be able to afford a higher caliber of everything: players, stadiums, coaching, medical staff, etc.

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07-05-2011, 03:14 AM
  #43
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RangerEsq: I'm not sure I should keep going in this political discussion but ok. The Swedish borders are generally quite unprotected, it's not just because we have rich neighbors. For instance the years after the start of the Iraq war something around 96% of all Iraqis who fled to Sweden got to remain in Sweden. I read that at some point almost 70% of all Iraqis who fled to Europe after the US started bombing went to Sweden (Btw, at that point the amount that got let into Canda and the US were 0%). We do welcome people from poor countries also, in fact the net immigration into Sweden is around 100,000 people annually, and that's to a country of under 10 million. I recently learned from a report that during the last decades Sweden has had per capita a higher net immigration than the US has had during the 20th Century, many from poorer countries. It's quite remarkable since Sweden is so far up north that so many refugees make it here. It's amuses me when I read on hfboards and other places where people say stuff like "There's black people in Sweden?" or in political discussions people seem to think we are a homogeneous society when we have more recent immigrants than the "immigrant nation" that is the US.


On the KHL discussion I just feel that the way that western europe does business and our societal norms are in stark contrast to the ways Russia does things. KHL is just the Russian league under a new name and the whole framework of the league wouldn't work with Scandinavian participation. From what I've read up on the KHL from Swedish hockey players who have played there and other knowledgeable hockey people it's straight up mafia how the thing is controlled. No rules basically.

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07-05-2011, 04:23 AM
  #44
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Every European country has immigrants from a country of choice: Turks in Germany, Algerians in France, Pakistanis in Britain, Somalians in Finland, Albanians in Italy, and yes, Iraqis in Sweden. But there is still limited immigration as a whole. Again, why is Albania not part of the European Union when it's smack in the center of Europe? Why was Turkey in essence denied membership? Why Moldova? Even countries like Portugal and Spain had to wait to join what was then called the European Community (and is now the European Union) until they caught up economically so that the Spaniards won't flood Belgium.

Sweden and the rest of Europe has had a recent - very recent - flow of immigrants, but it's not as if the borders are wide open. Trust me, if Sweden or the EU ever opened borders to whoever wanted to come there, the Third World's population would be reduced by upwards of 80%. I suspect that Europe's borde are still as open as they are because the Europeans are only now getting a hold on the idea that they are being flooded with poor people.

Notice that Europe has seen a rise of nationalist (Swedish Democrats) and extremist (National Democrats in Sweden) parties in recent years, appealing to the indigenous poor population that is not happy that their wages are being undercut by low-skill foreigners willing to work for ridiculous wages. The rich people are, as everywhere, happy to have more poor people, seeing as supply-and-demand means they get to pay their gardener and their maid less than before, but the European-born gardeners and maids are none too pleased, as evidenced by the rise of Geert Wilders, Danish People's Party, and other political parties that in some countries are now winning an outright majority of the low-income European voters who are not happy about their collapsing wages.

In any event, that's not really the point I was trying to make originally. I just wanted to point out that the Malmo-Copenhagen border is not exactly the same as San Diego-Tijuana border, and it's not a fair comparison to make.

It may or not may not be a good idea for the United States to open the SD-Tijuana border, but the reason to do so cannot be because, hey, it's easy to take the train over the bridge from Malmo to Copenhagen and so all the borders must be like that.


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07-05-2011, 04:54 AM
  #45
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A lot of KHL hate going around

Take note the KHL was a main sponsor of that recent charity game benefiting the NYC firefighters widow's and children's fund (911).

http://www.russianamericanfoundation...ttleonice.php?


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07-05-2011, 05:55 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
I am not saying it would necessarily be Stepan to leave. It would just be a player like that who would benefit from a large ice. I meant to say that it may not just be role players and/or Russians leaving. It may well be an occasional American kid who is offered double the money to be an All-Star in the KHL as opposed to being a second liner in the NHL.
With all the talent in the NHL,you should switch to the latger ice surface. That would have been great!!

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07-05-2011, 06:15 AM
  #47
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Nobody has mentioned yet that there is an EU law which gives residents of all member states the 'freedom of movement.' This explains why the Malmo - Copenhagen border is so easy to cross, and you can literally drive from France to Germany for example and there would just be a sign saying you had crossed the border. The only country that gets funny about it is the UK, but I suppose that's because we're an island, technically you only need ID to be allowed on a plane to go somewhere within the EU but they get pissed off if you don't have your passport.

So due to this it would only really be impractical having to travel to many different countries for the Russians, but they haven't had any problems with travelling to Latvia which is an EU member so it could probably be easy.

I can't see a Swedish or Finnish team joining the KHL though, there's just no need with the high standard of their leagues

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07-05-2011, 06:16 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by fredrikstad View Post
With all the talent in the NHL,you should switch to the latger ice surface. That would have been great!!
I agree. We had a thread on this a while back and mostly everyone agreed that a rink size inbetween the NHL size and European size would be better.

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07-05-2011, 06:17 AM
  #49
Propane Nightmares
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
I was thinking more in terms of a Central European Hockey League. Based on the quality of hockey, wealth of the country and population, this is what I came up with.

Three teams each:

Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic
Germany
Switzerland

Two teams each:

Norway
Italy
Austria
Slovakia
France

One team each:

Denmark
Poland
Latvia
Hungary
Slovenia

That's 30 teams, all of which are based in Central Europe, at most one time zone away from each other. If Europe ever got its act together, this could be a real threat. Playing in Copenhagen or Florence may not be a bad "other option" to playing in Calgary or Edmonton, if the league is decent.
No team from GB? Our top league is much better than the Polish and Slovenian and is considered to be on par with the French and Italian

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Old
07-05-2011, 06:26 AM
  #50
Dosing
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Khl has no business in scandinavia, only reason they got AIK's owners to suggest a move was $$$ and even that didn't work. Objectivly theres just no market in sweden for khl either, no one gives a crap about some teams you can't even pronounce properly. And theres just to much national pride to let a foreign league come in and set up shop, thankfully.

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