HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

(Part 3) Richards/Carter traded: Class of 2003

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-05-2011, 10:24 AM
  #51
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Then there was that time where Carter missed an open net that would have sent us to game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final. Stop acting like they can do no wrong.
I guess you've never played competitive sports, eh? I expect to hear the same drivel from you every time JvR fails to show up, which happened a lot last season.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 11:05 AM
  #52
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,895
vCash: 5792
I know it's hard for some people to believe...but playing in the NHL is hard. Especially when it's June and the ice is warm. Unless Carter is supposed to be exempt to Newton's Law.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 11:13 AM
  #53
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,872
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
I guess you've never played competitive sports, eh? I expect to hear the same drivel from you every time JvR fails to show up, which happened a lot last season.
You're too much. I appreciate what Richards and Carter did for this team, and they're both great players. I also understand that they make mistakes and have holes in their games.

You tried to say that Carter has shown up for the playoffs, which is entirely inaccurate. He's been injured for a large portion of his playoff games, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's laid an egg. "He scored a goal in the playoffs! He shows up!" Please...

Never played competitive sports? I've played competitive hockey my whole life.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 07-05-2011 at 11:20 AM. Reason: Hmm. Let's not go there.
JVR21 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 11:13 AM
  #54
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I know it's hard for some people to believe...but playing in the NHL is hard. Especially when it's June and the ice is warm. Unless Carter is supposed to be exempt to Newton's Law.
To be fair, it's not like it only happens once or twice in the playoffs. He misses his fair share of golden opportunities throughout the year, as do plenty of players.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 11:50 AM
  #55
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
You're too much. I appreciate what Richards and Carter did for this team, and they're both great players. I also understand that they make mistakes and have holes in their games.

You tried to say that Carter has shown up for the playoffs, which is entirely inaccurate. He's been injured for a large portion of his playoff games, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's laid an egg. "He scored a goal in the playoffs! He shows up!" Please...

Never played competitive sports? I've played competitive hockey my whole life.
And you score every time there's an opportunity, right?

Can't wait till JvR shoots and misses because I will definitely be looking for you to rip him.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 11:52 AM
  #56
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
To be fair, it's not like it only happens once or twice in the playoffs. He misses his fair share of golden opportunities throughout the year, as do plenty of players.
It's no different from a baseball player who hits .333. Those players are coveted but I'm sure the uninformed ***** about them only getting hits 1/3 of the time.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 11:58 AM
  #57
JVR21
G
 
JVR21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 7,872
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
And you score every time there's an opportunity, right?

Can't wait till JvR shoots and misses because I will definitely be looking for you to rip him.
I don't score every time there's an opportunity, but it's good to know that I'll be considered a clutch playoff performer once I pot one.

On a side note, damn you, Beef.

JVR21 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 12:23 PM
  #58
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
I don't score every time there's an opportunity, but it's good to know that I'll be considered a clutch playoff performer once I pot one.

On a side note, damn you, Beef.
Yeah, sure you will be.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 12:28 PM
  #59
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
I decided to check some numbers with regard to how Carter played with respect to playoff/non-playoff teams last year, and found the numbers were a bit closer than I expected they might be:

Non playoff teams: 20 goals.

Playoff teams: 16 goals.

10 of his goals vs playoff teams were against 5-8 seeds...the relevance of this is entirely questionable because some of those 5-8 seeds are pretty good teams, but it's intriguing regardless.

Of his 3 games with 2 goals, only 1 was against a playoff team (Chicago).



Edit: The year before:

Non-Playoff: 18
Playoff: 15


Talk about Carter getting the vast majority of his goals against non-playoff teams (of which I have been guilty) is definitely exaggerated.



Briere's numbers last year are skewed HEAVILY toward non-playoff teams.

Non-playoff: 22
Playoff: 12

And Giroux last year leaned toward playoff teams:
NP 12
P 15


Interesting....


Last edited by infidelappel*: 07-05-2011 at 12:43 PM.
infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 01:35 PM
  #60
Bryz4shiz
Registered User
 
Bryz4shiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Alhoa Oe
Posts: 2,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I decided to check some numbers with regard to how Carter played with respect to playoff/non-playoff teams last year, and found the numbers were a bit closer than I expected they might be:

Non playoff teams: 20 goals.

Playoff teams: 16 goals.

10 of his goals vs playoff teams were against 5-8 seeds...the relevance of this is entirely questionable because some of those 5-8 seeds are pretty good teams, but it's intriguing regardless.

Of his 3 games with 2 goals, only 1 was against a playoff team (Chicago).



Edit: The year before:

Non-Playoff: 18
Playoff: 15


Talk about Carter getting the vast majority of his goals against non-playoff teams (of which I have been guilty) is definitely exaggerated.



Briere's numbers last year are skewed HEAVILY toward non-playoff teams.

Non-playoff: 22
Playoff: 12

And Giroux last year leaned toward playoff teams:
NP 12
P 15


Interesting....
Do you have the numbers from the year he scored 46 or for a Crosby, Stamkos, or Perry? I suspect the majority of elite goal scorers in the league have numbers similar to Carter's. It's only natural for players to do a little better against worse competition. It's not like he's Kesler who basically only scores against non playoff teams.

Bryz4shiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 01:40 PM
  #61
Doyle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,151
vCash: 500
Assessing the Broad Street Bulldozer: Are the Flyers a Better Team?
http://nhlhotstove.com/assessing-the...a-better-team/

Doyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 02:11 PM
  #62
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Do you have the numbers from the year he scored 46 or for a Crosby, Stamkos, or Perry? I suspect the majority of elite goal scorers in the league have numbers similar to Carter's. It's only natural for players to do a little better against worse competition. It's not like he's Kesler who basically only scores against non playoff teams.
I can look up other players/seasons, I just sampled really quickly because I'm at work.

If you look on ESPN, though, you can see a player's game-by-game performances and tally it up yourself.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelo.../sidney-crosby

Crosby beat up on non-playoff teams: 23 goals, versus only 9 against playoff teams.

It makes sense that players will do better against non-playoff teams than they would against playoff teams. I'm just looking for drastic shifts one way or another, especially in players who are allegedly good/bad playoff performers. Such as: addressing the suggestion that Carter scores a disproportionate amount of his goals against non-playoff teams.


Last edited by infidelappel*: 07-05-2011 at 02:18 PM.
infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 02:23 PM
  #63
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,011
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I can look up other players/seasons, I just sampled really quickly because I'm at work.

If you look on ESPN, though, you can see a player's game-by-game performances and tally it up yourself.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelo.../sidney-crosby

Crosby beat up on non-playoff teams: 23 goals, versus only 9 against playoff teams.

It makes sense that players will do better against non-playoff teams than they would against playoff teams. I'm just looking for drastic shifts one way or another, especially in players who are allegedly good/bad playoff performers. Such as: addressing the suggestion that Carter scores a disproportionate amount of his goals against non-playoff teams.
Shhh! Your logic is destroying the arguments of those who slam players for putting up inferior numbers in the playoffs (when compared to their regular season stats).

Players score less against good teams? Go back to the sticks with that nonsense!

__________________
I deride your truth handling abilities
CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 02:26 PM
  #64
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Shhh! Your logic is destroying the arguments of those who slam players for putting up inferior numbers in the playoffs (when compared to their regular season stats).

Players score less against good teams? Go back to the sticks with that nonsense!
They don't always, though, which is interesting. I'm going to look through more of these numbers, eventually, and see if there are any discernible correlations one way or the other. I find it curious that Giroux did significantly better against playoff teams last year. It could be an anomaly, but more research is needed.

Edit: It should be noted that I've always been on the side of 'Carter is nonessential to our playoff success because he doesn't put up points in the playoffs.' Even I've found these numbers surprising.


Last edited by infidelappel*: 07-05-2011 at 03:04 PM.
infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 02:35 PM
  #65
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,949
vCash: 500
Pretty interesting info.

You don't know what you've got till it's gone...

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 03:12 PM
  #66
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,310
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
They don't always, though, which is interesting. I'm going to look through more of these numbers, eventually, and see if there are any discernible correlations one way or the other. I find it curious that Giroux did significantly better against playoff teams last year. It could be an anomaly, but more research is needed.

Edit: It should be noted that I've always been on the side of 'Carter is nonessential to our playoff success because he doesn't put up points in the playoffs.' Even I've found these numbers surprising.
The Crosby numbers don't surprise me when I think about how he scores most of his goals. He sets up next to the post or in front of the net and waits for a rebound or pass to stuff home. A better team is likely going to have the defense to stop or hinder that.



Edit: Like Ovi, Carter is able to score by just shooting at the net hard. I guess that's harder to defend than what Crosby does.


__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 05:16 PM
  #67
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The Crosby numbers don't surprise me when I think about how he scores most of his goals. He sets up next to the post or in front of the net and waits for a rebound or pass to stuff home. A better team is likely going to have the defense to stop or hinder that.



Edit: Like Ovi, Carter is able to score by just shooting at the net hard. I guess that's harder to defend than what Crosby does.

It's really, really interesting to break some of this stuff down. If I get the free time I'm going to try to get a lot more of these together. I wonder if any strong correlation can be found between the scoring break down as well as types of goals being scored with different teams?

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 06:06 PM
  #68
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,011
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
They don't always, though, which is interesting. I'm going to look through more of these numbers, eventually, and see if there are any discernible correlations one way or the other. I find it curious that Giroux did significantly better against playoff teams last year. It could be an anomaly, but more research is needed.

Edit: It should be noted that I've always been on the side of 'Carter is nonessential to our playoff success because he doesn't put up points in the playoffs.' Even I've found these numbers surprising.
Most players' career numbers back up padding their stats against lesser teams and have regular season points per game averages higher than playoff point per game averages.

The one anomaly I can recall off-hand is Mark Messier. His career playoff ppg averages are considerably higher than his career regular season ppg averages.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 06:21 PM
  #69
Vikke
FHM 13 researcher
 
Vikke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bustoville
Country: Sweden
Posts: 12,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Most players' career numbers back up padding their stats against lesser teams and have regular season points per game averages higher than playoff point per game averages.

The one anomaly I can recall off-hand is Mark Messier. His career playoff ppg averages are considerably higher than his career regular season ppg averages.
Could that be skewed from his incredible success early on in his career, playoff wise, compared to his regular season towards the end of his career?

Vikke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 06:28 PM
  #70
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,011
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
Could that be skewed from his incredible success early on in his career, playoff wise, compared to his regular season towards the end of his career?
The end of his career almost certainly was the main factor in his skewed numbers. Messier's team missed the playoff in his last 7 seasons; combine that with decreased production during the regular season due to his age and you have a recipe for an anomaly.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2011, 06:35 PM
  #71
Vikke
FHM 13 researcher
 
Vikke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bustoville
Country: Sweden
Posts: 12,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The end of his career almost certainly was the main factor in his skewed numbers. Messier's team missed the playoff in his last 7 seasons; combine that with decreased production during the regular season due to his age and you have a recipe for an anomaly.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Vikke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2011, 09:04 AM
  #72
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Most players' career numbers back up padding their stats against lesser teams and have regular season points per game averages higher than playoff point per game averages.

The one anomaly I can recall off-hand is Mark Messier. His career playoff ppg averages are considerably higher than his career regular season ppg averages.
No way, dude...every player's playoff PPG reverts to mean. Nobody ever has lower playoff production than regular season production over a large enough sample size. It's not like there's a substantial difference in the quality of competition or anything.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2011, 10:43 AM
  #73
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 14,011
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
No way, dude...every player's playoff PPG reverts to mean. Nobody ever has lower playoff production than regular season production over a large enough sample size. It's not like there's a substantial difference in the quality of competition or anything.
The stats don't support your argument, at least for the top players. Here's some of the best players in the last generation:

Gretzky: 1.92 (regular season ppg), 1.83 (playoff ppg)
Lemieux: 1.88, 1.60
Jagr: 1.26, 1.07
Sakic: 1.19, 1.09
Forsberg: 1.25, 1.13
Yzerman: 1.15, 0.94
Shanahan: 0.88, 0.72
Fedorov: 0.94, 0.96
Modano: 0.92, 0.83
Recchi: 0.92, 0.77
Datsyuk: 0.98, 0.75
Crosby: 1.38, 1.32
Malkin: 1.19, 1.17

By its nature, the quality of competition of playoff hockey is better than during the regular season.

Everyone above has played more than 100 playoff games, except Crosby and Malkin. I expect the gap between their regular season ppg and playoff ppg to widen as they play more playoff hockey.

Edit: Mark Messier, the prime outlier, averaged 1.25 points per game in the playoffs and 1.07 points per game during the regular season.

CanadianFlyer88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2011, 12:50 PM
  #74
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The stats don't support your argument, at least for the top players. Here's some of the best players in the last generation:

Gretzky: 1.92 (regular season ppg), 1.83 (playoff ppg)
Lemieux: 1.88, 1.60
Jagr: 1.26, 1.07
Sakic: 1.19, 1.09
Forsberg: 1.25, 1.13
Yzerman: 1.15, 0.94
Shanahan: 0.88, 0.72
Fedorov: 0.94, 0.96
Modano: 0.92, 0.83
Recchi: 0.92, 0.77
Datsyuk: 0.98, 0.75
Crosby: 1.38, 1.32
Malkin: 1.19, 1.17

By its nature, the quality of competition of playoff hockey is better than during the regular season.

Everyone above has played more than 100 playoff games, except Crosby and Malkin. I expect the gap between their regular season ppg and playoff ppg to widen as they play more playoff hockey.

Edit: Mark Messier, the prime outlier, averaged 1.25 points per game in the playoffs and 1.07 points per game during the regular season.

It's not actually my argument...I forgot the sarcasm smiley.

Jester is a big proponent of the belief that all players normalize in their PPG numbers between regular season and playoffs, as though 1 playoff game is completely equivalent to 1 regular season game, which is not the case.

There may not be an easy way to quantify it, but playoff games are harder and more competitive than regular season games, and anyone who says otherwise is foolish.

For that reason, it's expected that points should go down somewhat, but some players are more extreme than others. I personally think there's more to it than just being outliers, such as some players cope with the intensity of playoff hockey better than others.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2011, 01:00 PM
  #75
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
It's not actually my argument...I forgot the sarcasm smiley.

Jester is a big proponent of the belief that all players normalize in their PPG numbers between regular season and playoffs, as though 1 playoff game is completely equivalent to 1 regular season game, which is not the case.

There may not be an easy way to quantify it, but playoff games are harder and more competitive than regular season games, and anyone who says otherwise is foolish.

For that reason, it's expected that points should go down somewhat, but some players are more extreme than others. I personally think there's more to it than just being outliers, such as some players cope with the intensity of playoff hockey better than others.
I may butt in here, but I think his argument is more that a 1st line player in the regular season will most likely play as a 1st line player in the playoffs and a 3rd line player will play as a 3rd line player. Fernando Pisani had a great playoff run, but in the end his career numbers for the playoffs will show that he was a bottom-six guy. Given enough time and games over his career Carter will probably even out his numbers to be more equal those he has in the regular season as well.

If goal scoring goes down in the playoffs (I think it does slightly... can't really remember right now) then of course the points you get will most likely go down a bit as well.

Those numbers up there seems to be fairly close to each other on a first glance. I'm no statistician though, so these discussions are nothing for me really.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.