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07-05-2011, 05:31 AM
  #51
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Not worried about the KHL at all.

A few years ago, when Radulov defected, there was some big concern about what the KHL would mean to the NHL, since then, alot of their teams have faced financial difficulty and one long time staple of Russian Hockey went out of business totally (Moscow Dynamo)

They are no threat to the NHL where players from all over the world strive to play. Yes, you are going to have the odd player like a Radulov or an over the hill Jagr wanting to play there, but the VAST majority of younger players from ALL OVER THE WORLD will still strive to be an NHL player.

Am I worried, that marginal players and old men want to go there to cash in (as that is the ONLY REAL DRAW) no as that will ensure that the guys that should be in the NHL are in the NHL while the marginal/old guys cash a paycheck.

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07-05-2011, 11:54 AM
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I like the fact that KHL and other leagues are out there. It makes NHL to keep salary cap higher. As a Ranger fan I am, obviously, for cap elimination. But since it is not possible, high cap is the next thing to no cap. I believe we have to be thankful to KHL for their salary competition, although they are no match it terms of player security. So if you are okay with jungles out there, go ahead and make some money. What's wrong about it? Think about it, the min floor is now greater than salary cap was set after lockout. It is not just due to good business for NHL, it is also KHL salaries that indirectly effect the pay here at home.

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07-05-2011, 01:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Welshy3413 View Post
No team from GB? Our top league is much better than the Polish and Slovenian and is considered to be on par with the French and Italian
I've thought of that, but since I called it the Central European Hockey League, it didn't make sense to go to the GB, though it may make sense to just have a European League and include London and Barcelona/Madrid so that all the major countries in Europe are covered. The economic market that is London is as important as their league's quality.

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07-05-2011, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Not worried about the KHL at all.

A few years ago, when Radulov defected, there was some big concern about what the KHL would mean to the NHL, since then, alot of their teams have faced financial difficulty and one long time staple of Russian Hockey went out of business totally (Moscow Dynamo)

They are no threat to the NHL where players from all over the world strive to play. Yes, you are going to have the odd player like a Radulov or an over the hill Jagr wanting to play there, but the VAST majority of younger players from ALL OVER THE WORLD will still strive to be an NHL player.

Am I worried, that marginal players and old men want to go there to cash in (as that is the ONLY REAL DRAW) no as that will ensure that the guys that should be in the NHL are in the NHL while the marginal/old guys cash a paycheck.
Your first point is spot-on. People say, "Well, what if things get better in the KHL?" What evidence is there to suggest that things are improving, or will be improving? Everything I've seen seems to indicate the opposite...clubs bleeding money, substandard operations and facilities, and things getting worse by the season.

I agree with the rest of your post as well.

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07-05-2011, 02:00 PM
  #55
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Will the KHL be a threat for the NHL in the future? Nope.

Will the European hockey league be? It might. (if it ever happends)

Oh and i also think that many of you are underestimating the European leagues. IMO there's a ******** of players that could play in the NHL easily.

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07-05-2011, 02:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut View Post
Will the KHL be a threat for the NHL in the future? Nope.

Will the European hockey league be? It might. (if it ever happends)

Oh and i also think that many of you are underestimating the European leagues. IMO there's a ******** of players that could play in the NHL easily.
Which European leagues? The Elitserien, sure. Czech Extraliga, maybe. Finland? Eh. I don't know how you define a ******** of players, but I'm highly skeptical. I'm not even bothering with the Slovnaft Extraliga or the Bundesliga, because that's like ECHL level.

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07-05-2011, 02:39 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Your first point is spot-on. People say, "Well, what if things get better in the KHL?" What evidence is there to suggest that things are improving, or will be improving? Everything I've seen seems to indicate the opposite...clubs bleeding money, substandard operations and facilities, and things getting worse by the season.

I agree with the rest of your post as well.
Sunrise, Dallas, Nashville, Phoenix don't paint a pretty picture. You just had an Atlanta team move to Winnipeg, you had Kansas City assocaited with both the Pens and Islanders. Everything isn't rosy in the NHL.

No team in any sport is a safe bet. People have been proclaiming the NFL as a moneymaker, but, whoops, both Buffalo and Jacksonville could face being on the chopping block. The NFL needs a team in L.A.? They had one...twice, with one winning a Super Bowl.

What evidence is there of the KHL improving? They just secured a team from both Slovakia and Italy. Who is to say the KHL won't succeed in alluring more teams/countries to join?

European League, European League, even though the Russians are behind it, it's very close to being just that, a European League. Sure, it's going through some growing pains but to convey it as having no wiggle room for improvement, well, sorry, but I'm just going to have to baulk at that idea.

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07-05-2011, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
Sunrise, Dallas, Nashville, Phoenix don't paint a pretty picture. You just had an Atlanta team move to Winnipeg, you had Kansas City assocaited with both the Pens and Islanders. Everything isn't rosy in the NHL.

No team in any sport is a safe bet. People have been proclaiming the NFL as a moneymaker, but, whoops, both Buffalo and Jacksonville could face being on the chopping block. The NFL needs a team in L.A.? They had one...twice, with one winning a Super Bowl.

What evidence is there of the KHL improving? They just secured a team from both Slovakia and Italy. Who is to say the KHL won't succeed in alluring more teams/countries to join?

European League, European League, even though the Russians are behind it, it's very close to being just that, a European League. Sure, it's going through some growing pains but to convey it as having no wiggle room for improvement, well, sorry, but I'm just going to have to baulk at that idea.
They just secured teams from leagues that are themselves faltering. Again, poaching teams from C- and D-level European leagues hardly inspires confidence.

I understand that no team is a safe bet. However, we're not talking the Nashville, Phoenix and Atlanta types in the KHL--we're talking Moscow Dynamo, the juggernaut that supplied us with Ovechkin, Kovalev, Datsyuk, Yashin...an absolute flagship Russian club. They were forced to merge with another club to avoid folding all together. Here's an interesting article about it: http://news.hockeydraft.ca/2010/04/2...moscow-dynamo/

The KHL is in bad shape financially, has been since its inception/rebranding, and will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future. Adding other struggling teams from other struggling leagues does nothing to change the long term outlook for them. Remember when Ufa and Metallurg didn't pay their players for months? Big-time teams, not paying players. That kind of stuff is commonplace over there and hasn't abated as the league "grows."

Yes, it is true that I cannot speak in absolutes regarding the future of the KHL. However, I'm exceedingly confident that they'll continue to struggle, and pose no threat to the NHL whatsoever.

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07-05-2011, 03:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
They just secured teams from leagues that are themselves faltering. Again, poaching teams from C- and D-level European leagues hardly inspires confidence.

I understand that no team is a safe bet. However, we're not talking the Nashville, Phoenix and Atlanta types in the KHL--we're talking Moscow Dynamo, the juggernaut that supplied us with Ovechkin, Kovalev, Datsyuk, Yashin...an absolute flagship Russian club. They were forced to merge with another club to avoid folding all together. Here's an interesting article about it: http://news.hockeydraft.ca/2010/04/2...moscow-dynamo/

The KHL is in bad shape financially, has been since its inception/rebranding, and will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future. Adding other struggling teams from other struggling leagues does nothing to change the long term outlook for them. Remember when Ufa and Metallurg didn't pay their players for months? Big-time teams, not paying players. That kind of stuff is commonplace over there and hasn't abated as the league "grows."

Yes, it is true that I cannot speak in absolutes regarding the future of the KHL. However, I'm exceedingly confident that they'll continue to struggle, and pose no threat to the NHL whatsoever.
Regarding Dynamo:

Quote:
“Hockey in Russia is not business but is more of a social program,” explains Chesnokov. “People pay between $5 and $20 to see a game. The bulk of the money comes from sponsorships. And Dynamo’s sponsors decided not to invest in the team anymore. Dynamo’s revenues cannot sustain the expenses the team has. As strange as it sounds, the oldest club in Russia does not even have its own arena.”
The KHL can still do a lot of things to ensure revenue keeps pouring in: Increase ticket prices, decrease concession prices, just like in the Elitserien, have the players become skating billboards:



Hell, build arenas that can accommodate more spectators.

Again, growing pains. I mean, didn't the NHL have more teams in the NHL only to revert to a six team league? Even with league expansions, you still had a few teams getting the chop.

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07-05-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
The KHL can still do a lot of things to ensure revenue keeps pouring in: Increase ticket prices, decrease concession prices, just like in the Elitserien, have the players become skating billboards:

Hell, build arenas that can accommodate more spectators.

Again, growing pains. I mean, didn't the NHL have more teams in the NHL only to revert to a six team league? Even with league expansions, you still had a few teams getting the chop.
"Keep" revenue pouring in? Revenue has never poured into the KHL. If the league wasn't aligned with Putin's government and awash with oil money, it would have gone bankrupt years ago. It has never been profitable, and revenues have never been bountiful. And FWIW, many (most?) KHL teams do the ad thing...Traktor jumps out at me.

The KHL is not some sort of new league. It's a rebranding and 4-team expansion of the Russian Superleague, itself a rebranding of the Soviet League. When is it going to turn the corner? Since the Soviet Union fell, that league has been riddled with corruption, incompetence, substandard facilities and financial strife. When is it going to change? What structural changes has the KHL made to stabilize itself? Adding a team from Italy hardly addresses any of those issues.

Every year we have this discussion. Literally every offseason. Even before I posted on HF, there would be an article somewhere in some magazine or newspaper that claimed the Russian league was ready to make its move. And it never happens! And won't, until the league undergoes massive restructuring.

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07-05-2011, 03:29 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Your first point is spot-on. People say, "Well, what if things get better in the KHL?" What evidence is there to suggest that things are improving, or will be improving? Everything I've seen seems to indicate the opposite...clubs bleeding money, substandard operations and facilities, and things getting worse by the season.

I agree with the rest of your post as well.

Worse by the season?

I seriously doubt the KHL will ever challenge the NHL, but the infrastructure of the KHL is light years ahead of what it was only 2-3 years ago.
Modern arenas are being built everywhere; teams who cannot afford to pay players (a past problem) have been dropped; etc, etc., and they're now expanding outside of former USSR borders.

Remember, 99% of European sport clubs rely on sponsorship to survive, so 'bleeding money' is par the course. However, KHL has wealthy enough sponsors. From a sustainability standpoint, I understand, KHL is looking to expand the product via television contracts in Russia and Europe (more corporate sponsors) since gate receipts are not a viable money maker.

Obviously the KHL is no NHL (and I don't think it ever will be), but to say the league is regressing is faulty, especially when compared to the old RSL.

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07-05-2011, 03:39 PM
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Well, when they actually attain some lucrative television and sponsorship contracts, I might be inclined to change my tune. Sustainability is absolutely the word--when a marquee franchise loses sponsorship and is forced to fold or merge as a result, I think it's reasonable to question the sustainability of the business model.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the KHL has no shortage of political advantages and oil money to keep itself afloat. However, until the league undergoes major systemic changes--such as a centralized league office that actually looks out for the interests of individual franchises--the league will continue to falter.

I'm sorry I'm so skeptical. I've just heard it all before.

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07-05-2011, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Well, when they actually attain some lucrative television and sponsorship contracts, I might be inclined to change my tune. Sustainability is absolutely the word--when a marquee franchise loses sponsorship and is forced to fold or merge as a result, I think it's reasonable to question the sustainability of the business model.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the KHL has no shortage of political advantages and oil money to keep itself afloat. However, until the league undergoes major systemic changes--such as a centralized league office that actually looks out for the interests of individual franchises--the league will continue to falter.
What do you mean by 'continue to falter'?

Does it have issues to address? Certainly....many of them. However, the KHL has become the 2nd best league in the world in only 3 years and is miles ahead of the old RSL in every aspect. You don't get that level of growth without undergoing systemic changes. Look at the newly created MHL for instance. Would you see such a thing in the old RSL? Right.


I think any educated person realizes the KHL will never challenge the NHL....although, someday, it could potentially provide a very good alternative for some top players.

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07-05-2011, 03:56 PM
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"Falter" was a poor choice of words, one made hastily as I tried to wrap up this discussion so I could get some work done.

I'm probably being too harsh on the KHL and the progress it has made. We'll see.

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07-05-2011, 05:01 PM
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They have money, then Kovalchuk would of went home and gotten paid. Ovechkin would be going. Datsyuk would be going.

If those Euro's stay in Europe, yes, it'd suck because I love Swedish players, but it won't be devestating to the NHL. They'd survive with homegrown (USA and Canada players). They did before the Europeans started playing NHL hockey.


I see what you're saying, but I still see it a little different.

They'll adjust to where they play whether it's the east coast or west in the States or Canada.

Going from so many different countries would just be more of a nuisance. Wouldn't they have to go through customs?
I think it is pretty easy to travel from one country in the European Union to another, but I might be wrong. Russia and Khazakstan aren't in the EU though, but it probably wouldn't be that big a deal.

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07-05-2011, 05:13 PM
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I think it is pretty easy to travel from one country in the European Union to another, but I might be wrong. Russia and Khazakstan aren't in the EU though, but it probably wouldn't be that big a deal.
It is, you don't even need a passport if you're going on a plane to another EU country, as I've previously mentioned; in Western Europe its only really the UK borders who get funny about it, but that's probably because we're an island. With the countries that share land borders you can just drive from one to another at will, no checkpoints or anything

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07-05-2011, 05:36 PM
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When I look at the KHL and I hear people talk about Hockey Canada and the NHL and they snub their nose at the KHL it kind of reminds me of companies like Dec and Digital who snubbed their noses at Microsoft. "Companies like WHO you say", yeah exactly only some of the top and wealthiest, most influential and controlling computer companies in the industry. Blue chip companies who were thought to never disappear. Some of the Forbes top companies to work for!

Everyone starts small. It's how you act now, lays the groundwork for the future and so far, the NHL hasn't been smart about things.

Unless they make divisions essentially separate leagues, travel will be an issue in the KHL. EurAsia is a big place, we're talking 2 continents, not just one like in the US.
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Originally Posted by 3Four3 View Post
Again, growing pains. I mean, didn't the NHL have more teams in the NHL only to revert to a six team league? Even with league expansions, you still had a few teams getting the chop.
The NHL has never had only 6 teams. Only 6 teams has lasted the test of time. The league has always had more than 6 teams.

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07-05-2011, 05:40 PM
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Every European country has immigrants from a country of choice: Turks in Germany, Algerians in France, Pakistanis in Britain, Somalians in Finland, Albanians in Italy, and yes, Iraqis in Sweden. But there is still limited immigration as a whole. Again, why is Albania not part of the European Union when it's smack in the center of Europe? Why was Turkey in essence denied membership? Why Moldova? Even countries like Portugal and Spain had to wait to join what was then called the European Community (and is now the European Union) until they caught up economically so that the Spaniards won't flood Belgium.
No, it's more an issue of human rights, freedom of speach etc. Portugal and Spain were facist states well into the seventies, even though Portugal were founding members of both NATO and EFTA (early forerunner to EU)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Spanish_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuga...ion_Revolution

Albania is currently applying for membership, and has been eligible since 2003.

As to that, EU has been inducting poorer nations, and we have seen an increase in eastern european crime, trafficing and other less-pleasent stuff that comes with living in a planet with six billion other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
"Keep" revenue pouring in? Revenue has never poured into the KHL. If the league wasn't aligned with Putin's government and awash with oil money, it would have gone bankrupt years ago. It has never been profitable, and revenues have never been bountiful. And FWIW, many (most?) KHL teams do the ad thing...Traktor jumps out at me.
Who says revenue is the main motivation for sports? In europe, it never has been. Sport clubs here are almost never making alot of money, and are either owned because of personal enthusiasm or as a penis enlargment. Just look to the Premier Leauge (UK soccer) where russian big shots are pouring money on some of the clubs.

I think the NHL will suffer as long as the AHL pay is as low as it is. Many talented people from Europe will rather play back home for more, than to toil year after year in the AHL. This again will affect debth, and also the late bloomers (St. Louis type of players). I think most Europeans will prefer NHL over KHL, but most of them will prefer KHL over AHL, and that in turn, will affect NHL, in talent debth; and that the level in AHL won't challenge the prospects the way it has earlier.

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07-05-2011, 05:43 PM
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Unless they make divisions essentially separate leagues, travel will be an issue in the KHL. EurAsia is a big place, we're talking 2 continents, not just one like in the US.

The NHL has never had only 6 teams. Only 6 teams has lasted the test of time. The league has always had more than 6 teams.
I think they already have 2 conferences and play more games against the teams in their conference, I would not be shocked to see a couple of teams from the Asia league join, they would be actually closer to Amur Khabarovsk than any other team currently in the KHL

Edit: Did the research and found that each team plays the other teams in their division 4 times, and twice against every other team


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07-06-2011, 03:14 AM
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Which European leagues? The Elitserien, sure. Czech Extraliga, maybe. Finland? Eh. I don't know how you define a ******** of players, but I'm highly skeptical. I'm not even bothering with the Slovnaft Extraliga or the Bundesliga, because that's like ECHL level.
This is exactly what i mean. Have you ever watched any European league? I'm pretty sure you could put together a few competitive teams that could play very succesfully in the NHL from the European stars.

Obviously you have not if you put Czech extraliga ahead of SM-liiga... you know FEL teams are poaching from that league, which obviously makes our league more competitive.

You don't think the SM-Liiga Stars could play in the NHL?

You don't think the KHL Stars could play in the NHL?

You don't think the Swiss league Stars could play in the NhL?

And Lol at at DEL being ECHL level.. just big LOL. You know in DEL there are tons of north Americans who have played in the NHL, but get much better money in Europe.

I suggest you watch some games before calling any league 'ECHL level'.

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07-06-2011, 03:50 AM
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No, it's more an issue of human rights, freedom of speach etc. Portugal and Spain were facist states well into the seventies, even though Portugal were founding members of both NATO and EFTA (early forerunner to EU)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Spanish_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuga...ion_Revolution

One of the requirements to join the EU (and its open borders) are economic development on par, more or less, with the rest of the continent.

If you think 75%+ of the Third World would not move to Europe were it to have open borders, you are just not familiar with how poor the world is.

I suspect that almost all of Africa and Haiti would move to Europe. Illegals in the US would be glad to become citizens in the EU rather than having no rights in the US. I suspect most Latin American immigrants would prefer to move to Spain where they can speak their native language than to have to learn English in the United States.

But Europe is not offering open borders except to other wealthy nations. But the US also has easy crossing on its Canadian border (very, very easy until 9/11, but still not bad at all.)

To compare the Swedish-Norwegian border to the US-Mexican border is not fair. The right comparison would be to the US-Canadian border. And even then, the US is not trying to create a confederation with Canada while Europe is trying to become a supra-national continental regime.

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07-06-2011, 04:17 AM
  #72
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I don't think the KHL will be better than the NHL, but the problem is that the NHL expanded to 30 teams on the expectation that Europeans will keep coming here in large numbers.

In fact, I remember talk that the flow of foreign players will expand as hockey grows in places like Switzerland, Italy, Britain and even Spain, Israel and China.

But what if the number of foreign players suddenly drops? What if only superstar like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk and Datsyuk stay, while all the second liners and lower will decide that having more responsibility and more money in the KHL makes more sense.

What if the number of NHLers drops by 100 players, destroying depth? What's the plan then? Can the league maintain 30 quality teams?

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07-06-2011, 04:43 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
Which European leagues? The Elitserien, sure. Czech Extraliga, maybe. Finland? Eh. I don't know how you define a ******** of players, but I'm highly skeptical. I'm not even bothering with the Slovnaft Extraliga or the Bundesliga, because that's like ECHL level.
I really wonder how Germany did so well at the last two WCs with all their ECHL players. Yeah there are some bad players like in every league, but to call the DEL ECHL level is just ignorant.

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07-06-2011, 06:25 AM
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This is exactly what i mean. Have you ever watched any European league? I'm pretty sure you could put together a few competitive teams that could play very succesfully in the NHL from the European stars.

Obviously you have not if you put Czech extraliga ahead of SM-liiga... you know FEL teams are poaching from that league, which obviously makes our league more competitive.

You don't think the SM-Liiga Stars could play in the NHL?

You don't think the KHL Stars could play in the NHL?

You don't think the Swiss league Stars could play in the NhL?

And Lol at at DEL being ECHL level.. just big LOL. You know in DEL there are tons of north Americans who have played in the NHL, but get much better money in Europe.

I suggest you watch some games before calling any league 'ECHL level'.
Heck, even the Belfast Giants selects (basically British Elite league all stars) made the Bruins **** their pants by keeping them at bay for 30 minutes and scoring first, with our national team goalie showing up Tuuka Rask

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07-06-2011, 06:36 AM
  #75
Black Tank
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I wish the KHL the best of luck and I hope they've planned out the finances to make the league sustainable. Anything that allows hockey players to earn a living playing a game they love is a good thing.

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