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OT: KHL expands into the European Union

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Old
07-06-2011, 07:37 AM
  #76
Propane Nightmares
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Originally Posted by IEC View Post
I really wonder how Germany did so well at the last two WCs with all their ECHL players. Yeah there are some bad players like in every league, but to call the DEL ECHL level is just ignorant.
Completely agree, isn't Dennis Endras playing in the AHL next year? He was spectacular in the WCs in 2010. People even compare our British Elite league with the ECHL, the "big 4" of our league could easily compete in the ECHL, they wouldn't be a playoff team, but wouldn't get embarrassed

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07-06-2011, 07:58 AM
  #77
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You guys keep talking "stars" and "elites" which isn't an appropriate characterization of the respective leagues. You have to look at the level of competition as a whole, not cherry pick your best players. An NHL All Star team doesn't represent the general level of play in the league.

Of course some of the stars from those Euro leagues could play NHL hockey in some capacity. But not a *********-load like the original guy I quoted claimed.

I'll be back later with actual examples when I have time.

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07-06-2011, 08:53 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
You guys keep talking "stars" and "elites" which isn't an appropriate characterization of the respective leagues. You have to look at the level of competition as a whole, not cherry pick your best players. An NHL All Star team doesn't represent the general level of play in the league.

Of course some of the stars from those Euro leagues could play NHL hockey in some capacity. But not a *********-load like the original guy I quoted claimed.

I'll be back later with actual examples when I have time.
I know what you mean but I did say, the 'big 4' teams of the British league; Nottingham, Belfast, Sheffield and Cardiff, could compete reasonably in the ECHL, and every team in the DEL would thump all 4 of those teams. In my opinion the DEL is a better standard than the ECHL, but not as good as the AHL

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07-06-2011, 09:00 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Welshy3413 View Post
I know what you mean but I did say, the 'big 4' teams of the British league; Nottingham, Belfast, Sheffield and Cardiff, could compete reasonably in the ECHL, and every team in the DEL would thump all 4 of those teams. In my opinion the DEL is a better standard than the ECHL, but not as good as the AHL
That seems reasonable.

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07-06-2011, 03:21 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
One of the requirements to join the EU (and its open borders) are economic development on par, more or less, with the rest of the continent.

If you think 75%+ of the Third World would not move to Europe were it to have open borders, you are just not familiar with how poor the world is.

I suspect that almost all of Africa and Haiti would move to Europe. Illegals in the US would be glad to become citizens in the EU rather than having no rights in the US. I suspect most Latin American immigrants would prefer to move to Spain where they can speak their native language than to have to learn English in the United States.

But Europe is not offering open borders except to other wealthy nations. But the US also has easy crossing on its Canadian border (very, very easy until 9/11, but still not bad at all.)

To compare the Swedish-Norwegian border to the US-Mexican border is not fair. The right comparison would be to the US-Canadian border. And even then, the US is not trying to create a confederation with Canada while Europe is trying to become a supra-national continental regime.

Never said anything agaist the last statement, only that you've wrong about the EU. Even though it in many regards suck, and I'm glad we're not apart of it. It has included easter european memebers with alot weaker economy than the original western european countries, and not allowed stronger economies like Turkey because of human rights infringments.

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07-06-2011, 03:48 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
You guys keep talking "stars" and "elites" which isn't an appropriate characterization of the respective leagues. You have to look at the level of competition as a whole, not cherry pick your best players. An NHL All Star team doesn't represent the general level of play in the league.

Of course some of the stars from those Euro leagues could play NHL hockey in some capacity. But not a *********-load like the original guy I quoted claimed.

I'll be back later with actual examples when I have time.

Yes and no.

Remember, 'level of play/competition' generally fluxuates based on style of game. There are tons of players earning a paycheck in the NHL not because they're more talented, but because they can play a particular NA style role better than their European counterparts.

Generally speaking, elite players will always be elite; however if the NHL implemented international ice you'd see a sizable change in who we consider good/average/bad players.
I mean in such an instance NHL GMs would likely be trying to sign a Karel Rachunek over a Dan Hamhuis.

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07-06-2011, 04:00 PM
  #82
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Understood, and agreed. Though to my point about some of the elite players from other leagues being able to cut it in the NHL, we are necessarily talking about the North American game and therefore NA skill set.

I'll absolutely walk back my "ECHL-level" comment, as Welshy's description of "Better than ECHL, not quite AHL" is more apt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEC View Post
I really wonder how Germany did so well at the last two WCs with all their ECHL players. Yeah there are some bad players like in every league, but to call the DEL ECHL level is just ignorant.
This speaks directly to my point earlier. You cannot assemble your greatest players and say, "This is a clear representation of our league." It's a representation of the best you have to offer, not the situation as a whole.

What level of North American hockey would you compare the German league to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut View Post
This is exactly what i mean. Have you ever watched any European league? I'm pretty sure you could put together a few competitive teams that could play very succesfully in the NHL from the European stars.

Obviously you have not if you put Czech extraliga ahead of SM-liiga... you know FEL teams are poaching from that league, which obviously makes our league more competitive.

You don't think the SM-Liiga Stars could play in the NHL?

You don't think the KHL Stars could play in the NHL?

You don't think the Swiss league Stars could play in the NhL?

And Lol at at DEL being ECHL level.. just big LOL. You know in DEL there are tons of north Americans who have played in the NHL, but get much better money in Europe.

I suggest you watch some games before calling any league 'ECHL level'.
See my previous point about assembling rosters of stars.

As earlier stated, nowhere did I say (or even insinuate) that star players from other leagues couldn't play NHL hockey. Nowhere. I definitely think there are a fair amount of players from those leagues who could step into an NHL role. I don't think it's a lot, but it's not a negligible amount.

To the SM-liiga vs. Tipsort debate: I disagree. I think the leagues are very close in terms competitiveness. And I disagree that poaching of players is an adequate way of judging level of competition--if you're an inferior league, one way to quickly improve your standing it to poach players from a superior league. I am NOT saying that I necessarily believe that to be the case in this situation, simply providing an example of why your statement of "obviously better" is false. I also find Czech players in the Czech leagues more ready to assume an NHL position than Finnish players in the Finnish leagues, which is the reason I mentioned CZR ahead of FIN.

I'm very aware of the NA players in Germany. Some have previous NHL experience, most have AHL experience, many have neither.

I watch a ton of games, from all over the world. There are plenty of places to watch major and minor hockey leagues, if you know where to look. I obviously cannot watch most leagues live, so I have to resort to other means to gain access. You can disagree with my opinions and think that I'm an idiot, but I assure you I watch my fair share of international hockey.


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Old
07-06-2011, 06:05 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
To the SM-liiga vs. Tipsort debate: I disagree. I think the leagues are very close in terms competitiveness. And I disagree that poaching of players is an adequate way of judging level of competition--if you're an inferior league, one way to quickly improve your standing it to poach players from a superior league. I am NOT saying that I necessarily believe that to be the case in this situation, simply providing an example of why your statement of "obviously better" is false. I also find Czech players in the Czech leagues more ready to assume an NHL position than Finnish players in the Finnish leagues, which is the reason I mentioned CZR ahead of FIN.
Not true at all.

Czechs very often come to Finland to get ready for the NHL, as SM-Liiga is often seen as the next step physically and talent wise (the fastest and most physical league of the european ones, also played in "midway" rinks that are somewhere in between international size and NHL size) towards the NHL or in case of NHL "leftovers" (which most of the czechs here are) it's seen as a place with a biggest possibility of getting another shot at the NHL.

IMHO it's:


NHL




KHL



Elitserien


SM-Liiga


AHL


Swiss national league
DEL
Czech extraliga
^^^^
Those three are on about the same level.

the rest.

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07-06-2011, 06:53 PM
  #84
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I can go for placing the Czech league a notch below the SML, but I think it absolutely belongs above the German and Swiss leagues.

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07-08-2011, 07:32 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by AJBergy86 View Post
I agree. We had a thread on this a while back and mostly everyone agreed that a rink size inbetween the NHL size and European size would be better.
Anyone who has a link to that tread,or the name of it? Pleace excuse my weak spelling and grammar.
Hope it is almost understandable

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07-08-2011, 08:04 AM
  #86
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KHL will rarely be able to poach stars/ very good players from NHL. However the rise of KHL will of course hurt the depth of NHL, and the level of overall talent in NHL will drop a bit. A earlier mentioned problem is that the quality of AHL is dropping, and that NHLs development league is getting worse is not a good thing. This is of course a problem for NHL but still a minor one.

There would be more reason to worrie if the canadian and american hockey programs was struggling, but this is certainly not the case they are pumping out quality prospects which makes the rise of KHL a lesser threat to the level of talent.

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07-08-2011, 10:00 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by fredrikstad View Post
Anyone who has a link to that tread,or the name of it? Pleace excuse my weak spelling and grammar.
Hope it is almost understandable
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=910407

Here you go.

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07-08-2011, 10:40 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut View Post
Thanks you very match

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07-08-2011, 10:40 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
Say what? Lol, I think things have changed a little sincethe 17th/18th century, and the years after WWII. There is even color TV in Europe now
His point was stated incorrectly, but the basic point of what he was trying to articulate is inarguably true. The United States remains a country that many people around the world aspire to live in. It's perhaps the country that attracts the most emigrates from eclectic cultures in the world (by that I mean not just people pouring into the country from a neighboring country), and I think that population diversity, along with the country's wealth, political orientation and relative stability makes it very attractive to potential athletes (and people of other vocations) the world around.

Of course it's absurd to state literally that every person in the world wishes to live here, but I'm pretty sure that poster merely stated his view on the subject inartfully. At least I think that's the case.

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07-08-2011, 11:04 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma Royd View Post
They can gobble up all the fourth- and fifth-tier hockey programs they want. It doesn't improve the level of play and does nothing to improve the KHL's chances for gaining ground on the NHL.

The KHL will never be anything more than a leverage point for European-born players during negotiations, and a place where old/crappy NHLers go to die. There will obviously be exceptions to my generalization, but the league poses absolutely no threat to the NHL or North American hockey in general.

That league has been hemorrhaging money since its inception, and I see nothing to indicate a reversal of fortune.
This. Have you ever seen one of their games on tv? They always play in stadiums that are so empty they make the Piles attendance stellar.

The KHL will may always be there, but never be a threat.

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07-08-2011, 11:17 AM
  #91
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The KHL will always be a place for players who want to play close to home but in the end it all comes down to money. If KHL teams can compete financially for an entire roster with the NHL, they would be a very real threat. Right now they can't so they are more of a selective assasain. Over time, if they can attract enough deep pockets and pay a full roster, not just a few selected players, NHL type money, the dynamics could become much different. Expansion into Europe would be one way to accomplish that. Remember, the SHL isn't doing very well financially either.

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07-08-2011, 12:06 PM
  #92
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Saw a report, in passing, of an agreement between the NHL and KHL last night on the NHL Network. No specifics given. I'll look for more.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=568840

Not much, but here's the story.

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07-08-2011, 12:15 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
Saw a report, in passing, of an agreement between the NHL and KHL last night on the NHL Network. No specifics given. I'll look for more.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=568840

Not much, but here's the story.
Yeah, it's pretty much the same MOU that's been in place for the past couple of years.

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