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Old
07-06-2011, 07:33 PM
  #251
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Whitesnake, I don't anyone is saying that they wouldn't want those players, it just that most won't lose sleep if they aren't signed. I think everyone has agreed that they wouldn't a little more toughness, however, they also think that this player has to be able to play some hockey when not fighting.

I mean, Whitesnake, do you seriously think signing an Eric Godard will make that big a difference? Hell it wasn't too long ago that we had Laraque, O'byrne, Komisarek, Begin and Boullion on the team and we still saw the same taunting as we do now(aside from the one game where Laraque kept Lucic quiet, but that required Laraque to play on the first line, which ended up hurting us in the end considering that we lost. After the game Laraque went back on the 4th line and Lucic kept taunting).

What you guys are asking for is a complete team identity change. It just won't happen and one guy won't change much, especially if he's a 4th line plugger. Like I said I'm all for getting a guy like Winchester because he can actually play decent hockey, but I'm not in favor of getting guys whose sole reason why they are in the nhl is because they can fight. We've been down that road many times with Laraque, Downey, Langdon etc. The funny part is when we had them everyone whined because they sucked and now that we don't have them, everyone whines because we don't have them.

I would never say no to a Neil or a Thornton, but they are rarer than we think. Rupp was a good chance, but as you heard from Dreger, ten teams offered the same amount and he chose the Rangers, nothing you can do more at the point unless you wanna offer more that 1.5 per year for 4 years for Mike Rupp.

I don't think one plugger is a solution.
And if you read carefully, you'll see that Godard is NOT what I'm looking for. And you are ABSOLUTELY right...one plugger is NOT the solution....but in order to get 5 guys that could take care of themselves and others AND play hockey, you need to start somewhere. This is just like the guy who said that he doesn't get the Cole acquisition 'cause we not 1 Cole away from the Stanley Cup....which also makes no sense 'cause to be 3 or 4 good players away from the Cup, you need to hire the 1st one....and the 2nd....

I mean, Boston, the team we despise so much, do NOT have 1 goon on their team. Nobodhy wants to have a Brian McGrattan. All of their guys can play hockey and won't hurt you, even Adam McQuaid.

So yes, one day we had plenty and we whined 'cause of how bad they were...and now we whine 'cause we don't have any....well that's ALSO exactly it...How about having a balance? I mean, I was incredibly happy when we acquire Travis Moen....and you see what it did? The guy, and understandably so, can't handle to do that job all alone and because of it and other reasons, he because less effective in other parts of his game. Surround Moen better and not only he'll feel braver but I believe he'll have more confidence all around. Then imagine how the other players might feel.

In the end, it's just a question of philosophy. I remember the hockey of the 80's when we had skills and toughness. I'd prefer that style of hockey. But will NOT be a "girouette" and change teams that fits that philosophy. I'm a Habs for life....but desperately hoping that one day we will go back to that route. And NO, I,m not trading toughness for wins. I believe we can achieve all that in the same time. But clearly, I will have to wait till Gauthier and Martin steps down before I see that happening though you would think that the Tinordi pick was a sign for better days to come....You hope that they didn't make him their 1st pick just because he has a long reach....

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07-06-2011, 07:36 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I guess there's something I'm not getting. Most people in here would have liked to get Kenopka, or Winchester or Rupp. I'd say at least 90%...isn't it? Yet, when we don't get those guys....you read how they were unuseful to begin with and that we don't need those pluggers....Question is...do we not need them because Gauthier told us so? Or did you never want them to begin with? Just to be sure who is who here.
For me personally: Never wanted Konopka, he's not a good hockey player and not the kind of player that you see on winning teams. If you're a rubbish team I can see how he'd fulfill some sort of need and provide a distraction from the rubbishness of the team. Wouldn't have minded Rupp particularly, though he has consistency issues both in terms of fighting and play. Have wanted Winchester since the start. On random other names, was staunchly against Eager, the guy showed two teams he's a liability last year. Would quite like Shane O'Brien, though I'm not sure that's likely.

In terms of your general questions, no-one I don't think actually questions that there was a need to be addressed. I question those who claim Montreal management 'refuse' to address it. Ryan White was called up the day after the 8-6 Boston match. Mara was signed just after. Erik Cole does provide more size and grit for the top six (yeah, you don't have to fight Milan Lucic to be 'gritty' or even 'tough').

My main argument is not with those who see a need to be addressed, but those who live in some fantasy world where the entire structure of the team should be built with the aim of beating up Milan Lucic at some point in the season.

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Old
07-06-2011, 08:42 PM
  #253
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
For me personally: Never wanted Konopka, he's not a good hockey player and not the kind of player that you see on winning teams. If you're a rubbish team I can see how he'd fulfill some sort of need and provide a distraction from the rubbishness of the team. Wouldn't have minded Rupp particularly, though he has consistency issues both in terms of fighting and play. Have wanted Winchester since the start. On random other names, was staunchly against Eager, the guy showed two teams he's a liability last year. Would quite like Shane O'Brien, though I'm not sure that's likely.

In terms of your general questions, no-one I don't think actually questions that there was a need to be addressed. I question those who claim Montreal management 'refuse' to address it. Ryan White was called up the day after the 8-6 Boston match. Mara was signed just after. Erik Cole does provide more size and grit for the top six (yeah, you don't have to fight Milan Lucic to be 'gritty' or even 'tough').

My main argument is not with those who see a need to be addressed, but those who live in some fantasy world where the entire structure of the team should be built with the aim of beating up Milan Lucic at some point in the season.
You didnt understand much of what Whitesnake said and you damned sure didnt understand a single thing that I have said.

I like how you spun around the discussion of Rupp and his "consistency" issues. Seriously? Rupp had more goals last season (9) than Gomez, Desharnais, Eller, Moen, Pyatt and White.

(That point of his goals scored compared to several Canadiens is not to diminish the Canadien players mentioned.......no, it is to point out the fallacy that you are trying to portray as a Gauthier/Martin fanboy.)

Rupp was a -4 and fought 12 times with players from Komisarek to Thornton.

Now to make this clear to all the Gauthier fanboys who like to use hyperbole to make their points........"those who live in some fantasy world where the entire structure of the team should be built with the aim of beating up Milan Lucic at some point in the season"...........the Montreal Canadiens have enough talent on the top 2 lines to be successful in the playoffs. Our third line is talented enough to provide goal support to the top two lines. The ONLY thing missing from this team is a legitimate 4th line that can fight and provide energy with big hits and stepping up to whip some ass if anyone runs or messes with our goal scores on the top 3 lines (or our goalie). And it does not have to be just Lucic.

That and a DMan cut from the mold of Vandermeer.

But, Rupp was ours for the taking if Gauthier made a better offer for him (meanwhile sitting on $6 million in cap space). Same for Vandermeer.

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Old
07-06-2011, 09:16 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You seem to have a pretty good grasp of hockey's X's and O's. It appears that the game of hockey to you is basically black and white.

But for a second, let go of all of your immense hockey knowledge and think outside of the box and use a little common sense.

Here goes.........The Habs tough guy who can fight but resides on the 4th line and plays less than 10 minutes a game is sitting on the bench as Lucic (top line for the Bruins) again crosschecks Carey Price down to the ice. Our top line is on the ice so Pleks Cammy Cole simply gather around and nothing happens.

In your mind, we would now have to put the 4th line on the ice whenever Lucic's line comes out........which would be dumb.

But has it ever crossed your super intelligent hockey mind that all you need to do the next time Lucic comes back on the ice is to pull ONE forward off the ice and insert your tough guy who skates right up to Lucic, drops the gloves and sends a message that Price is off limits.

Or you can simply tuck tail and keep reinforcing the fact that the Canadiens do not stand up for each other.
A-men! Couldn't have said it better myself!

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I guess there's something I'm not getting. Most people in here would have liked to get Kenopka, or Winchester or Rupp. I'd say at least 90%...isn't it? Yet, when we don't get those guys....you read how they were unuseful to begin with and that we don't need those pluggers....Question is...do we not need them because Gauthier told us so? Or did you never want them to begin with? Just to be sure who is who here. 'Cause it is possible that the ones who don't want them now are the same ones that didn't want them to begin with. Problem is that I don't believe everybody is consequent and that they NOW feel they are not needed because Gauthier decided to....But if you wanted those guys before....it surely wasn't to play fancy hockey. Then, you acknowledge the need of getting bigger and grittier which then has to dissapoint you if we don't go in that direction.

I personnally don't feel that the 8-6 loss against Boston the only instance where Habs players were getting laughed at, challenged and never did anything about it. I've never seen so much taunting towards the bench and we decided to turn the other cheek. Does it means more wins if we get a Rupp that would knock down a Thornton? Maybe not....but maybe it gives you a certain momentum during a game that you can turn a game around. But let say it doesn't.....where's that proudness to be a Habs? Where's that attitude that you will not laugh at me and certainly not in my building and in front of my fans? Doesn't that count for a little something? For whoever keeps saying now that they don't get how people are getting all worked up over 4th liners and that we don't need those goons....please tell me that you will ABSOLUTELY be OUTRAGED the day where one of this goon would have pounded another tough guy?

Personally, and it's not towards everybody 'cause I know that some posters are totally consequent, I strongly believe that some are just getting their opinion in sync with what the management is doing. Who here would have been disgusted by a Rupp or a Kenopka acquisition? Yet, when they don't come...it's not important. YES. I agree. It is NOT about moral victories. Now that the Bruins won, we are NOT going to be satisfied with losing 7-1 but we won all 3 fights. Which is the reason why I don't want GOONS, but players that could take care of themselves, take care of the guys who can't, and that will not permit to see us being laughed at and ridiculized. AND that could play hockey. There are players like that. Unfortunately in here, you either want GOONS, or you either want skill. People, there are something in between.....

But then, while some don't want anything to do with that....I just hope it's not the same people who can't wait to see Conboy in our lineup.....a Conboy who still hasn't proved nothing as far as taking care of himself is concerned. But hey, he's a Habs draftee, it's great to have him on board.....but it's irrelevant to go and pick some of the guys like him, AND MUCH BETTER, up?
This is exactly what I was saying before, although not so eloquently. If the Habs say white, the herd will say white. When the team changes its mind and says black, they follow suit and say black. But careful if you have your own mind and go against the flow, you become a critic, a basher and you should go cheer for another team... no matter if you were cheering for true good Habs' teams while they weren't even a thought in their father's mind!


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Old
07-06-2011, 09:23 PM
  #255
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The player I'd love to go for is Steve Ott, can be a 40 point player, very tough, intimidating, perfect player for our Third line, I think Dallas will be in ba shape this year and he might be available I'd overpay for this kind of player, I'd be willing to trade up Kristo and a 2nd for him or even Tinordi, his dad does have history in Dallas if I recall.

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07-06-2011, 09:34 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Wow. Komi got hurt so we should never have someone with toughness on the team again. Pacifism (*****) 101 on display.

Pretend? I like how you try to take the morally superior ground by calling my opinion regarding team toughness "pretending".
I actually never said that. You just said you didn't want Lucic to injure your stars. I just found it ironic that the one player he actually injured was Komisarek, a tough boy, and during a fight. You don't see the irony?
How you twist this into ''we should never have someone with toughness'' is a mystery.

I said it before, multiple times, I can see the benefits of having tough guys. I don't even mind if it's a pure enforcer that plays 5min. I also said O'Brien is a D I'm hoping they sign. If Emelin pans out as the aggressive guy he supposedly is (a poor man's Kasparitis), as well as having PK and O'Brien, I think our D could be well furnished in the toughness department.
I said that I don't think having an enforcer will change anything to the end results however, which is why I won't lose any sleep if we don't sign one. I won't scream for Gauthier's head and make stupid emotional reactionary statements because of it.
There isn't one Habs fan that wasn't excited about the Laraque signing. Sure, overpaid and long term, but still, people were very happy.

Personally, I wasn't a fan of Konopka, so I never made a case for him. I said more than once that I'd be all for having Rupp. But if Gauthier didn't go after those guys because he rather sign a guy like Madden, then hey, I can definitely live with that.

That's not because I just blindly support management. There's plenty of moves I disagree with it, but if we do end up signing someone like Madden over a Konopka, it's not something I can disagree with.

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Old
07-06-2011, 10:45 PM
  #257
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post


This is exactly what I was saying before, although not so eloquently. If the Habs say white, the herd will say white. When the team chances its mind and says black, they follow suit and say black. But careful if you have your own mind and go against the flow, you become a critic, a basher and you should go cheer for another team... no matter if you were cheering for true good Habs' teams while they weren't even a thought in their father's mind!
Gauthier is a god.

You nailed it. When the Habs last won the Cup, they were a team similar to the present day Bruins. Tough as nails, willing to fight anyone and forwards with confidence because they did not have to worry about some punk from any team messing with them.

And, the excuses pile in. Pre-lockout, cap system, old days, things change etc and so on ad nauseum. Yet the Bruins did it this year like we used to, excuses be damned, injuries and all.

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07-07-2011, 12:01 AM
  #258
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Also it seems like the only game that is ever brought up is 8-6 loss in Boston.

I'm glad management isn't as buut-hurt as some of you still are over this game.
The same thing happened the last regular season match against Boston the season or two before. Boston knew they were in the playoffs and we needed a win bad and they pretty much abused the Habs' player since it was open season since they knew the Habs needed the win and couldn't take penalties. I remember Komi got corned by Chara and the big neaderthal took a few cheap shots at him when Komi couldn't do anything.

I'm tired of this happening over and over. Sometime you have to take a stand. I'm tired of my Canadians being the laughing stock of the league, i'm tired of being ashamed of my Montreal Canadiens.

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07-07-2011, 12:15 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
The same thing happened the last regular season match against Boston the season or two before. Boston knew they were in the playoffs and we needed a win bad and they pretty much abused the Habs' player since it was open season since they knew the Habs needed the win and couldn't take penalties. I remember Komi got corned by Chara and the big neaderthal took a few cheap shots at him when Komi couldn't do anything.

I'm tired of this happening over and over. Sometime you have to take a stand. I'm tired of my Canadians being the laughing stock of the league, i'm tired of being ashamed of my Montreal Canadiens.
There is NOT ONE PLAYER in this league capable of deterring Chara from committing fouls when he wants to. This is why there are rules that lay out how many penalty minutes for each infraction a player is supposed to get.

Thanks by the way for demonstrating the point I made the other day that the clamour for tough guys is more about the fans having manly adequacy issues than about what goes on on the ice.

There is no reason for you as a fan to feel personally ashamed that some Neanderthal on another team commits fouls.

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07-07-2011, 01:18 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Gauthier is a god.

You nailed it. When the Habs last won the Cup, they were a team similar to the present day Bruins. Tough as nails, willing to fight anyone and forwards with confidence because they did not have to worry about some punk from any team messing with them.

And, the excuses pile in. Pre-lockout, cap system, old days, things change etc and so on ad nauseum. Yet the Bruins did it this year like we used to, excuses be damned, injuries and all.
There was a bunch of teams that were tough as nails with a bunch of players willing to fight anyone, they didn't win the cup.
In 1993, Roy wins Conn Smythe, Habs win cup.
In 2011, Thomas wins Conn Smythe, Bruins win cup.

That's why they won the cup, not because we had players willing to fight. We had 4 players with 80+ pts, three 30G scorers and one 40G one, we had 10players with more than 40pts. Last season we had 4 players with more than 40pts...
We had guys like Damphousse, Muller, Lebeau, Bellows, Desjardins, Schneider, Savard, Keane, LeClair, Carbonneau, Daigneault. These guys weren't the tough players willing to fight anyone. We had only two guys that were big and tough as important regulars, Todd Ewen and Lyle Odelein. Ewen played 1 game in the POs. Odelein was pretty much the only one used in the POs that fits the mold you're speaking off.
Despite all these crazy amazing stars and players, we probably still don't win if it's not for Roy playing like a God.
We didn't win the cup thanks to Roberge and Ewen. We won the camp mainly because of grit and skills.
The Bruins don't win the cup without Thomas. It's that simple.

In 97-98, we had big guys and others ready to drop their gloves at any moment. Guys like Corson, Quintal, Tucker, Vukotu (to show you how fighting was a lot more important back then, this guy played 10years with more than 550 games, and didn't even break the 50pt mark!), Ryan, Stevenson, Thornton, Manson, Popovic, but we still ended up going nowhere.

Talent will always be miles and miles ahead of aggressiveness/fighters. A good mixture is welcomed, but the two biggest determining factor in building a winning team is grit and talent.
We have 5 guys that should get at least 20goals next year, AK-Plek-Cammy-Gio-Cole, with the possibility of having another (MaxPac). We didn't even have that when we finished 1st in East and 2nd in GF back in 07-08.
So, there's really nothing to whine about. We're headed in the right direction and there's no point in crying over nothing. If we don't get an enforcer, it's really not the end of the world.

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07-07-2011, 01:33 AM
  #261
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I think Ian Schultz may be a 4th liner with the Habs in 2012/13. He will fill the role we require. As long as he is responsible in his own end, he will bring added toughness and 10 minutes a night.

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07-07-2011, 03:20 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You didnt understand much of what Whitesnake said and you damned sure didnt understand a single thing that I have said.

I like how you spun around the discussion of Rupp and his "consistency" issues. Seriously? Rupp had more goals last season (9) than Gomez, Desharnais, Eller, Moen, Pyatt and White.

(That point of his goals scored compared to several Canadiens is not to diminish the Canadien players mentioned.......no, it is to point out the fallacy that you are trying to portray as a Gauthier/Martin fanboy.)

Rupp was a -4 and fought 12 times with players from Komisarek to Thornton.
Pretty sure I said I wouldn't have minded Rupp. Of course he has consistency issues (mostly this is why he's a 4th liner), Pittsburgh fans will tell you this. He's also a more than decent roleplayer, hence he got a lot of offers and could choose where he wanted to go. Not really sure what you're disagreeing with.

Quote:
Now to make this clear to all the Gauthier fanboys who like to use hyperbole to make their points........"those who live in some fantasy world where the entire structure of the team should be built with the aim of beating up Milan Lucic at some point in the season"...........the Montreal Canadiens have enough talent on the top 2 lines to be successful in the playoffs. Our third line is talented enough to provide goal support to the top two lines. The ONLY thing missing from this team is a legitimate 4th line that can fight and provide energy with big hits and stepping up to whip some ass if anyone runs or messes with our goal scores on the top 3 lines (or our goalie). And it does not have to be just Lucic.
Have you even read some of the things you've posted in this thread? Next time Lucic is mean to Price, send out one of your 4th line to attack him? There's a reason why teams don't actually do this and that is that it won't work. In all of the senses of won't work. This is where you're in a fantasy world.

Quote:
But, Rupp was ours for the taking if Gauthier made a better offer for him (meanwhile sitting on $6 million in cap space). Same for Vandermeer.
Pure supposition on your part, you don't know what offers were made to these players and you don't know what formed the basis for their decisions.

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07-07-2011, 05:48 AM
  #263
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There is NOT ONE PLAYER in this league capable of deterring Chara from committing fouls when he wants to. This is why there are rules that lay out how many penalty minutes for each infraction a player is supposed to get.

Agreed, besides... for all the toughness the B are supposed to have, it didnt prevent them for losing Savard/Bergeron... and Horton in the SCF...

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07-07-2011, 06:51 AM
  #264
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And once you take him off that line Lucic will go back and do it again, that's what happened when the instigator rule was implemented...you cannot jump a player without hurting your team.

Konopka wouldn't change a thing and it's naive to think that one fighter who can do nothing else but fight and win faceoffs(Konopka isn't good at anything else including the defensive side of the game) will keep teams honest even when he is on the bench. And it's not just Lucic he's gonna have to stop, it's also Thornton, Chara and Horton.

The Canadiens are not going to re haul their entire team because its fans are insecure when they play the Bruins.

Also, once Konopka is in the box what stops the rest of the goons on the ice from acting the way they do? Nothing.

Lastly, your childish remarks add nothing to discussion and is probably a reason why posters on this board takes you seriously aside from a handful.
What world are you living in? The instigator rule has no effect on any of this.

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07-07-2011, 06:56 AM
  #265
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Agreed, besides... for all the toughness the B are supposed to have, it didnt prevent them for losing Savard/Bergeron... and Horton in the SCF...
Who said that having a protector would stop othe teams from playing hockey?? The lack of knowledge of the role of a go or the homerism towards the Habs system has really gone to the point of the mentally insane...

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07-07-2011, 07:14 AM
  #266
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If PG really wanted some additional toughness on the bottom 6 or at D, he would have already signed a guy like Rupp or others from the UFA market. We can forget about Winchester. Unless it's via trade, things won't change.

We can count ourselves lucky with Cole. A good acquisition and it is probably enough tougness for PG. At least we didn't go for Sullivan, Pyatt or Petrov.

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07-07-2011, 07:19 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed, besides... for all the toughness the B are supposed to have, it didnt prevent them for losing Savard/Bergeron... and Horton in the SCF...
Who said that having a protector would stop othe teams from playing hockey?? The lack of knowledge of the role of a go or the homerism towards the Habs system has really gone to the point of the mentally insane...

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07-07-2011, 08:17 AM
  #268
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And if you read carefully, you'll see that Godard is NOT what I'm looking for. And you are ABSOLUTELY right...one plugger is NOT the solution....but in order to get 5 guys that could take care of themselves and others AND play hockey, you need to start somewhere. This is just like the guy who said that he doesn't get the Cole acquisition 'cause we not 1 Cole away from the Stanley Cup....which also makes no sense 'cause to be 3 or 4 good players away from the Cup, you need to hire the 1st one....and the 2nd....

I mean, Boston, the team we despise so much, do NOT have 1 goon on their team. Nobodhy wants to have a Brian McGrattan. All of their guys can play hockey and won't hurt you, even Adam McQuaid.

So yes, one day we had plenty and we whined 'cause of how bad they were...and now we whine 'cause we don't have any....well that's ALSO exactly it...How about having a balance? I mean, I was incredibly happy when we acquire Travis Moen....and you see what it did? The guy, and understandably so, can't handle to do that job all alone and because of it and other reasons, he because less effective in other parts of his game. Surround Moen better and not only he'll feel braver but I believe he'll have more confidence all around. Then imagine how the other players might feel.

In the end, it's just a question of philosophy. I remember the hockey of the 80's when we had skills and toughness. I'd prefer that style of hockey. But will NOT be a "girouette" and change teams that fits that philosophy. I'm a Habs for life....but desperately hoping that one day we will go back to that route. And NO, I,m not trading toughness for wins. I believe we can achieve all that in the same time. But clearly, I will have to wait till Gauthier and Martin steps down before I see that happening though you would think that the Tinordi pick was a sign for better days to come....You hope that they didn't make him their 1st pick just because he has a long reach....
Excellent post whitesnake, other than the (tinordi pick) I agree. You would think out of all the people Bob Gainey would share this sentiment and I believe he does, after acquiring Moen and signing Laraque. He tried, but we were already soft in too many areas.

I'm hopeful that PG has a bit a difference philosophy than Gainey, so far, I've been impressed. Most of the needs I have noticed he's tried to address. I don't believe he's done yet and still think he's gonna sign a couple of tough guys who won't hurt the team, Winchester, O'Brien ect for example. This will go a long way to adding another element to our already speedy, skilled team and put us that much closer towards a cup.

I don't get those who insist on being one dimensional, skilled only. I believe it takes a balance of both. I also believe we need less reliance on the PP and better results 5vs5, hopefully Erik Cole will help with that. The refs don't give many PP's during the playoffs, so having it as a lethal weapon isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially if you can't score at ES.

I like PG's work so far, if he doesn't get a tough dman I'll be a bit disappointed though.

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07-07-2011, 09:44 AM
  #269
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I'm sorry but with the exception of Whitesnake nobody on that side of the argument has really presented a legitimate argument in favor of the whole toughness, protector, fighter, whatever argument. (Reading from the last two pages) You can't really expect a legitimate discussion what with the way some of you are behaving.

All it really has been is a pissing match from a bunch of scrubs making assumptions about the people who don't agree with their opinion. Even down right making up excuses to bash the person calling it hyperbole or claiming that they missed the point when it's clearly obvious from their post that they didn't miss the point they just don't agree with you. (Warping their statement in some obscure way that doesn't even make sense doesn't make them look bad, you're just grasping at straws when you do that.)

I can understand both sides of the argument but I just don't see why the "toughness" crowd has to resort to belittling people calling them pacifists laughing at them and making beyond stupid statements about the management or fans as a result of an opinion. Just because some people don't want a tough guy doesn't make you're the only objective fans out there. Just because some people agree with management doesn't make them a yoyo either.

Yes I know for some people it's a difficult concept to grasp but at times when people disagree with you and agree with management, it's because it's their opinion and not because they're just "going with the flow". Here's a little news flash for all you people out there. Pierre Gauthier, Bob Gainey, Jacques Martin, Perry Pearn, Cunneryworth, any of those people, they all know a **** ton more about the situation itself and how to achieve success than you do. So while it might be cool to go against the grain and act like you know better you really don't. So at least those people who do "go with the flow" have a legitimate reason to believe in management more-so than so guy on an internet forum.

I just find it disrespectful for a lot of you guys to assume just because we don't agree with you 100% (depending on the extreme) that we're just those "go with the flow" types. For one those go with the flow types are agreeing with people who know a lot more than you do about the situation, stuff we as fans could not even know. For two they have experience you don't have either. Is it stupid for people to blindly follow anything? Sure, but PG knows a whole lot more about the situation than we do so while it's great to be objective some people have a little bit more faith than you all do in the management people who know the situation and know a lot more about running a team than any of you do. I find it quite comical that you make fun of those people when they're at least following some legit hockey people. You guys aren't even on the level of a TSN analyst save maybe Whitesnake.

You're the ones who are internet arm chair GM's going against management decisions not the other way around. But we're supposed to assume we or you know better? Quite comical indeed.

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Old
07-07-2011, 09:58 AM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm sorry but with the exception of Whitesnake nobody on that side of the argument has really presented a legitimate argument in favor of the whole toughness, protector, fighter, whatever argument. (Reading from the last two pages) You can't really expect a legitimate discussion what with the way some of you are behaving.

All it really has been is a pissing match from a bunch of scrubs making assumptions about the people who don't agree with their opinion. Even down right making up excuses to bash the person calling it hyperbole or claiming that they missed the point when it's clearly obvious from their post that they didn't miss the point they just don't agree with you. (Warping their statement in some obscure way that doesn't even make sense doesn't make them look bad, you're just grasping at straws when you do that.)

I can understand both sides of the argument but I just don't see why the "toughness" crowd has to resort to belittling people calling them pacifists laughing at them and making beyond stupid statements about the management or fans as a result of an opinion. Just because some people don't want a tough guy doesn't make you're the only objective fans out there. Just because some people agree with management doesn't make them a yoyo either.

Yes I know for some people it's a difficult concept to grasp but at times when people disagree with you and agree with management, it's because it's their opinion and not because they're just "going with the flow". Here's a little news flash for all you people out there. Pierre Gauthier, Bob Gainey, Jacques Martin, Perry Pearn, Cunneryworth, any of those people, they all know a **** ton more about the situation itself and how to achieve success than you do. So while it might be cool to go against the grain and act like you know better you really don't. So at least those people who do "go with the flow" have a legitimate reason to believe in management more-so than so guy on an internet forum.

I just find it disrespectful for a lot of you guys to assume just because we don't agree with you 100% (depending on the extreme) that we're just those "go with the flow" types. For one those go with the flow types are agreeing with people who know a lot more than you do about the situation, stuff we as fans could not even know. For two they have experience you don't have either. Is it stupid for people to blindly follow anything? Sure, but PG knows a whole lot more about the situation than we do so while it's great to be objective some people have a little bit more faith than you all do in the management people who know the situation and know a lot more about running a team than any of you do. I find it quite comical that you make fun of those people when they're at least following some legit hockey people. You guys aren't even on the level of a TSN analyst save maybe Whitesnake.

You're the ones who are internet arm chair GM's going against management decisions not the other way around. But we're supposed to assume we or you know better? Quite comical indeed.
My argument? Results speak for themselves! Other argument? I'm old enough to remember winning teams in Montreal, their line-up, how they won from having seen it with my own eyes, not videos! Other argument (or rather pet peeve)? People mistaking getting bigger and tougher at the expense of skills, while looking for every way to excuse this management and that, with every move!

While it may not be enough of an argument to you, it sure as hell is to me and it then becomes your problem, not mine.

So before speaking of condescending, try reading your text I've quoted above!

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07-07-2011, 10:07 AM
  #271
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Hey guys! It's only a hockey forum. Calm down. If everything is written with respect to each other, I don't see any problems having different opinions.

On the other hand, I don't see why we should stop blaming management if we want to. We can do it with politicians and businesses. It should be the same with the club's management. Because between you and me, when Houle and Tremblay were leading this team, I'm sure that at least 25% of us could have done a better job.

Anyway. Go in peace brothers and sisters.

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07-07-2011, 10:15 AM
  #272
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Wow, all this over a bunch of 4th liners / bottom pairing D
Gilles Lupien must be very proud.

To throw a couple of cents into the discussion, when the Habs beat the vaunted broad street bullies, it was the skill players that could fight that shocked the Flyers ie/ Robinson and not the Bouchards of this world (even though he could play)
I think that most want a player with pugilistic upside, but some want just that while others would prefer someone that can compete/play as well.

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07-07-2011, 11:26 AM
  #273
uiCk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
My argument? Results speak for themselves! Other argument? I'm old enough to remember winning teams in Montreal, their line-up, how they won from having seen it with my own eyes, not videos! Other argument (or rather pet peeve)? People mistaking getting bigger and tougher at the expense of skills, while looking for every way to excuse this management and that, with every move!

While it may not be enough of an argument to you, it sure as hell is to me and it then becomes your problem, not mine.

So before speaking of condescending, try reading your text I've quoted above!
maybe you should write a blog post about it and open a thread of HF. Love your arguments, they are so rich and open to debate.

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07-07-2011, 11:42 AM
  #274
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to Neofury's post. We've been telling the same arguments over and over again. I'll try to make this short and sweet.

1)entertainement factor. Fights have been part of hockey for the last 100 years. The building has just about the same energy during a fight then when the home team scores a goal, everybody is up from their seats screaming loud. You want proof, go on YouTube, out of m head I remember the Laraque-Shelley and Peters fights in Montreal. The White-Boychuck one was also crazy!

2) Momentum. How exactly can you not be tired that everytime we lose 3-1, 4-2 or something around that corner in the 2nd period against either Toronto, Ottawa, Boston, Philly or Atlanta, team is flat on the ice, and the only way we can get back in it is by diving like a bunch of pansies and hope for a pp opportunity. How many teams a year do we see players look for fights, get into one and all of a sudden they own the ice and start scoring. Who does that on the Habs????

3) Confidence. That is by very far the most solid argument possible. At the end of the humiliating 8-6 game Thomas Plekanec told the media he would not minds having a protector on the team. What do you think (when the mikes are off) that what he said really ment? Guys must be pissed off and just tired of having to deal with the trash talking, the after whistle scrums and marginal scrubs playing like they're freacking Superman on the ice. Lucic and Niel were less intimidating then Mike Ribeiro when we had somebody that thy had to answer too. A goon doesn't need to fight every game, their presence Aline calms the arrogance of opposing team's players. That doesn't mean that Lucic or Niel will go back to the dressing room or stop hitting, but you will never see like what we saw when Plekanec and Pouliot had thei heads between their legs, yu could almost see the desperation in their faces. Protectors are usually great locker room players, they cheer for teammates and they make the team a family that has their back instead of 23 individuals playing hockey....

I'm sorry, I can't do better then that...

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Old
07-07-2011, 01:42 PM
  #275
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm sorry but with the exception of Whitesnake nobody on that side of the argument has really presented a legitimate argument in favor of the whole toughness, protector, fighter, whatever argument. (Reading from the last two pages) You can't really expect a legitimate discussion what with the way some of you are behaving.

All it really has been is a pissing match from a bunch of scrubs making assumptions about the people who don't agree with their opinion. Even down right making up excuses to bash the person calling it hyperbole or claiming that they missed the point when it's clearly obvious from their post that they didn't miss the point they just don't agree with you. (Warping their statement in some obscure way that doesn't even make sense doesn't make them look bad, you're just grasping at straws when you do that.)

I can understand both sides of the argument but I just don't see why the "toughness" crowd has to resort to belittling people calling them pacifists laughing at them and making beyond stupid statements about the management or fans as a result of an opinion. Just because some people don't want a tough guy doesn't make you're the only objective fans out there. Just because some people agree with management doesn't make them a yoyo either.

Yes I know for some people it's a difficult concept to grasp but at times when people disagree with you and agree with management, it's because it's their opinion and not because they're just "going with the flow". Here's a little news flash for all you people out there. Pierre Gauthier, Bob Gainey, Jacques Martin, Perry Pearn, Cunneryworth, any of those people, they all know a **** ton more about the situation itself and how to achieve success than you do. So while it might be cool to go against the grain and act like you know better you really don't. So at least those people who do "go with the flow" have a legitimate reason to believe in management more-so than so guy on an internet forum.

I just find it disrespectful for a lot of you guys to assume just because we don't agree with you 100% (depending on the extreme) that we're just those "go with the flow" types. For one those go with the flow types are agreeing with people who know a lot more than you do about the situation, stuff we as fans could not even know. For two they have experience you don't have either. Is it stupid for people to blindly follow anything? Sure, but PG knows a whole lot more about the situation than we do so while it's great to be objective some people have a little bit more faith than you all do in the management people who know the situation and know a lot more about running a team than any of you do. I find it quite comical that you make fun of those people when they're at least following some legit hockey people. You guys aren't even on the level of a TSN analyst save maybe Whitesnake.

You're the ones who are internet arm chair GM's going against management decisions not the other way around. But we're supposed to assume we or you know better? Quite comical indeed.
Decaf.

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