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Which is better for development, OHL vs AHL?

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Old
07-08-2011, 06:07 PM
  #26
marty
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I always thought the best solution here would be to move the draft age to 19.

It would actually raise the level of play in Jr's because the handful of Halls, Seguins, Skinners and Fowlers of the world would remain in the league for another year.

It would allow teams to take their prospects and move them right into their own system, AHL, ECHL or NHL.

It would take some of the random luck out of the draft, with an extra year of evaluation time.

You'd probably get a dozen players out of the 1st round each year that could jump right to the NHL, as opposed to just 2 or 3. And that would provide a much quicker turnaround for teams finishing at the bottom of the standings, giving them viable NHL players, potential impact players, right away. Heck, that would even make the draft more of a must-see event, much like the NFL draft.
I agree with this idea in principle. Implementation is where I get fuzzy about the idea.

For instance say they decided to do this today. The unfortunate team who "wins" the first overall pick in next years draft would have the great honour of picking in one of the worst drafts ever. The only 19 year olds that would be available would be those players skipped over in this years entry draft.

Unless they did some sort of 3-4 year gradual shift where they moved the "born by" date for the draft back a couple months each year eventually arriving at a 19 year old draft.

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07-08-2011, 06:51 PM
  #27
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I think it depends on where they are in their development.

Seguin was already dominating the CHL-there wasn't much else he could do there to help his game, but I also think he might have been better served at times this year in Providence than on the NHL roster.

I think some of the things Seguin had to get used to are things he just didn't see in juniors. Playing with adult men instead of teenagers is a huge one. Also adjusting to the NHL game. While I haven't seen junior games, I have seen college, AHL and NHL games and there are very big differences in speed of the game, strength of the hits, and just general play. I figure juniors is probably a step between college and AHL play and I think AHL may for some players be the place to move their development then staying in juniors another year.

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For instance say they decided to do this today. The unfortunate team who "wins" the first overall pick in next years draft would have the great honour of picking in one of the worst drafts ever. The only 19 year olds that would be available would be those players skipped over in this years entry draft.

Unless they did some sort of 3-4 year gradual shift where they moved the "born by" date for the draft back a couple months each year eventually arriving at a 19 year old draft.
If I were in charge this is probably how I would do it. Just bump the birthdate by a few months each year until you get to the right age and leave it there.

I think raising the draft age might help-if that means drafted players could have the choice of entering the NHL's farm system or staying in juniors. I read somewhere a while back that a lot of Canadien players are opting more for college in the US because they can opt to leave college and join the NHL's farm system.

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07-08-2011, 07:12 PM
  #28
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07-08-2011, 08:36 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Gonzothe7thDman View Post
Name me one highly touted prospect that was possibly ruined by spending too much time in juniors.
This is exactly right. The only players I can think of in recent memory who would really have been hindered if they had to play another year of juniors are Sidney Crosby, Patrick Kane and John Tavares.

Typically, dominating a season is good because a player hits the next level with confidence. For all the crowing about Spooner and Knight being better off in the AHL, neither one of them has come close to dominating in the OHL. However, I see Spooner finishing top 5 in the scoring race this year, probably with a 100 point season.

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07-08-2011, 08:45 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by marty View Post
I agree with this idea in principle. Implementation is where I get fuzzy about the idea.

For instance say they decided to do this today. The unfortunate team who "wins" the first overall pick in next years draft would have the great honour of picking in one of the worst drafts ever. The only 19 year olds that would be available would be those players skipped over in this years entry draft.

Unless they did some sort of 3-4 year gradual shift where they moved the "born by" date for the draft back a couple months each year eventually arriving at a 19 year old draft.
No dude. You'd probably have to skip a draft year entirely. Then the following year the NHL would hold a draft lottery combining the standing results for the two years.

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07-08-2011, 08:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I always thought the best solution here would be to move the draft age to 19.

It would actually raise the level of play in Jr's because the handful of Halls, Seguins, Skinners and Fowlers of the world would remain in the league for another year.

It would allow teams to take their prospects and move them right into their own system, AHL, ECHL or NHL.

It would take some of the random luck out of the draft, with an extra year of evaluation time.

You'd probably get a dozen players out of the 1st round each year that could jump right to the NHL, as opposed to just 2 or 3. And that would provide a much quicker turnaround for teams finishing at the bottom of the standings, giving them viable NHL players, potential impact players, right away. Heck, that would even make the draft more of a must-see event, much like the NFL draft.
It's a great idea. The only downside I see is for the truly gifted 1st overall picks, like Crosby. That, and the logistics of skipping a draft year might be a pain.

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07-08-2011, 09:12 PM
  #32
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For my money there's an advantage to each - the CHL is really great for developing skillsets (shot, puck creativity, passing, etc.,) and for my money the AHL is much better for acclimating to the speed, physicality and intensity of the NHL. Really depends on what the prospect in question needs work on... but that's just my subjective opinion...

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07-08-2011, 09:26 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Juicy Rebound View Post
For my money there's an advantage to each - the CHL is really great for developing skillsets (shot, puck creativity, passing, etc.,) and for my money the AHL is much better for acclimating to the speed, physicality and intensity of the NHL. Really depends on what the prospect in question needs work on... but that's just my subjective opinion...
Definitely agree with the AHL helping the physical aspect of a prospect's game. The CHL, especially the OHL has turned more into women's hockey (no offense) the past few years. On the bright side, they have done a great job taking out headshots, but they leave a lot to be desired when running into a ref by accident earns you an unsportsmanlike penalty. (Jared Knight)

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07-08-2011, 09:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bizarro Bandwagoner View Post
Every team should be able to place one junior aged played on their AHL roster. Losing 30 players across the entire CHL isn't going to have a big impact on any of those leagues.

Bobby Ryan wasted at least one season playing in the OHL when he really should have been developing in the AHL.

Seguin could have used some time in Providence this past season. There are many examples of careers being needlessly delayed because of this dumb rule.
Imagine if the NHL lost 30 of its top stars to another league.

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07-08-2011, 09:55 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TCL40 View Post
I think it depends on where they are in their development.

Seguin was already dominating the CHL-there wasn't much else he could do there to help his game, but I also think he might have been better served at times this year in Providence than on the NHL roster.

I think some of the things Seguin had to get used to are things he just didn't see in juniors. Playing with adult men instead of teenagers is a huge one. Also adjusting to the NHL game. While I haven't seen junior games, I have seen college, AHL and NHL games and there are very big differences in speed of the game, strength of the hits, and just general play. I figure juniors is probably a step between college and AHL play and I think AHL may for some players be the place to move their development then staying in juniors another year.



If I were in charge this is probably how I would do it. Just bump the birthdate by a few months each year until you get to the right age and leave it there.

I think raising the draft age might help-if that means drafted players could have the choice of entering the NHL's farm system or staying in juniors. I read somewhere a while back that a lot of Canadien players are opting more for college in the US because they can opt to leave college and join the NHL's farm system.
The Bruins could not send him to Providence. He is too young. They would have had to send him back to Plymouth of the OHL. That is why they had to keep him with the big club because the things the Bruins wanted him to improve on would not have been accomplished in the OHL.

A player will learn more playing with men, but the NHL teams can't send them to the AHL until they are 20 or played 4 years of CHL JR. The CHL is an amazing league and produces top notch hockey talent but... the AHL is also head and shoulders above in competition.

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07-08-2011, 09:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
This is exactly right. The only players I can think of in recent memory who would really have been hindered if they had to play another year of juniors are Sidney Crosby, Patrick Kane and John Tavares.

Typically, dominating a season is good because a player hits the next level with confidence. For all the crowing about Spooner and Knight being better off in the AHL, neither one of them has come close to dominating in the OHL. However, I see Spooner finishing top 5 in the scoring race this year, probably with a 100 point season.
They could not have played in the AHL this year. Not old enough.

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07-08-2011, 10:10 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I always thought the best solution here would be to move the draft age to 19.

It would actually raise the level of play in Jr's because the handful of Halls, Seguins, Skinners and Fowlers of the world would remain in the league for another year.

It would allow teams to take their prospects and move them right into their own system, AHL, ECHL or NHL.

It would take some of the random luck out of the draft, with an extra year of evaluation time.

You'd probably get a dozen players out of the 1st round each year that could jump right to the NHL, as opposed to just 2 or 3. And that would provide a much quicker turnaround for teams finishing at the bottom of the standings, giving them viable NHL players, potential impact players, right away. Heck, that would even make the draft more of a must-see event, much like the NFL draft.
I get where you're coming from, but wasn't the draft age set at 18 partly because of because of legal challenges, that players said they had the right to employment once they reached the age of majority? I seem to recall reading about that.

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07-08-2011, 10:22 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turk 16 View Post
I knew about the AHL-CHL agreement re. age requirements. But I was puzzled as to why Bergeron was allowed to play in the AHL during the lockout year at age 19. Did he get a waiver or something because he'd already spent a season in the NHL? Just curious.







WAY TO GO BRUINS!!!
Basically what it came down to...He had nothing left to prove in the Q so Acadie-Bathurst allowed him to go Providence

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07-08-2011, 10:26 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I get where you're coming from, but wasn't the draft age set at 18 partly because of because of legal challenges, that players said they had the right to employment once they reached the age of majority? I seem to recall reading about that.
I think you're right, Artemis. It would be legally difficult to prevent young players from jumping into the NHL at whatever age they were ready as legal adults. Obviously, I'm no Lawologist or Legalitician, so you'll have to pardon my completely subjective and by no means legalistically accurate statement.

On a complete aside, whenever I read Arremis' posts, in my mind I hear it read by Artemis from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia".... does anyone else have this problem ?

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07-08-2011, 10:59 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Juicy Rebound View Post
I think you're right, Artemis. It would be legally difficult to prevent young players from jumping into the NHL at whatever age they were ready as legal adults. Obviously, I'm no Lawologist or Legalitician, so you'll have to pardon my completely subjective and by no means legalistically accurate statement.

On a complete aside, whenever I read Arremis' posts, in my mind I hear it read by Artemis from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia".... does anyone else have this problem ?
Might this be easier under Canadian law than US law?

It's an agreement between the NHL and CHL that underagers can play in the NHL, but not in the minors, thereby not depriving juniors of their top players. It's not law, and a CHL team could easily release a player to play in the minors.

Junior and the AHL have two different aims. Junior is a development league for 16-20 year-olds, some of whom will go on to play in the NHL, quite a few of whom won't. It's to develop individual talent, essentially, and get them ready for something else. The AHL is essentially development/insurance. You tend to see a lot of goalies and defensemen matriculate in the AHL for a couple of years before heading to the big time. Not as common for forwards to do as much time in the minors. When I used to watch a lot of IHL games (before it merged into the AHL), the forwards usually moved on to become third and fourth-liners, and you still had top D-men and goalies come through. A lot of top forwards end up going straight from junior/NCAA to the NHL.

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Old
07-08-2011, 11:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by marty View Post
I agree with this idea in principle. Implementation is where I get fuzzy about the idea.]
Yeah, I originally had the idea during the lockout. It would have been the perfect time to skip a year.

Otherwise, yeah, push the born-by date back by 3 months, and within 3 years the majority of picks are 19, and by 4 years they all are.

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Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
It's a great idea. The only downside I see is for the truly gifted 1st overall picks, like Crosby. That, and the logistics of skipping a draft year might be a pain.
Yeah, once every 10 years or so, we'd have to wait one extra year to see that generational talent hit the ice.

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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I get where you're coming from, but wasn't the draft age set at 18 partly because of because of legal challenges, that players said they had the right to employment once they reached the age of majority? I seem to recall reading about that.
The way it's set up now, you already are restricting the vast majority of players from their right to employment by not allowing them to turn pro and play in the AHL at 18.

And in 2006 the NBA put in a rule that moved the draft age to 19. And the NFL requires you to be 3 years removed from high school.

You'd think that if it's illegal (to restrict a player's right to pursue employment), then it would be illegal for all leagues, not just the NHL.

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07-08-2011, 11:29 PM
  #42
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I could be way off here, but didn't the NHL drop their draft age because the WHA did after the threat of legal action by Ken Linesman?

I would be more than Ok with the draft age at 19 and having a player like a Sidney Crosby able to file for an exceptional status as an 18 year old much like the CHL does in their Priority Draft. It gives NHL teams the chance to better evaluate players.

But I am also fine with the current system. Teams are forced to take some risks and teams with exceptional scouting in place will do better. Sort of adds a competetive spirit off the ice.

With as tight as this years draft was, would waiting a year have made it any more clearer? Probably, yes, you would have seen more separation. But then that would take away the suspense, and the fun, out of trying to project where these players end up. Some teams have an advantage over others in this because they choose to do so. Those that don't fall behind.

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07-09-2011, 06:53 AM
  #43
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you cant really compare the two as one is an ameuter league and one is a professional league.
the AHL is usually the next step to the NHL for most players.
a better comparison would be CHL vs NCAA

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07-09-2011, 09:31 AM
  #44
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The Bruins could not send him to Providence. He is too young. They would have had to send him back to Plymouth of the OHL. That is why they had to keep him with the big club because the things the Bruins wanted him to improve on would not have been accomplished in the OHL.
I know that. My point was mostly that the things Seguin seemed to need the most-getting used to the physical and speedier aspects of the game he couldn't really develop in the OHL, but because it was NHL or OHL only, he stayed in the NHL. My point is that I think Seguin probably could have had more success and developed those aspects of his game better in the AHL. He probably wouldn't have been a healthy scratch.

However he was on a Stanley Cup winning team and I think the things he probably learned from that experience trump anything he could have done in the AHL or OHL.

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07-10-2011, 05:46 PM
  #45
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I know that. My point was mostly that the things Seguin seemed to need the most-getting used to the physical and speedier aspects of the game he couldn't really develop in the OHL, but because it was NHL or OHL only, he stayed in the NHL. My point is that I think Seguin probably could have had more success and developed those aspects of his game better in the AHL. He probably wouldn't have been a healthy scratch.

However he was on a Stanley Cup winning team and I think the things he probably learned from that experience trump anything he could have done in the AHL or OHL.
Agreed.

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07-10-2011, 06:19 PM
  #46
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I think the OHL exposes players to NHL style of play earlier, and thus develops them into NHL ready players a bit earlier as opposed to college which plays a little different style than the OHL, NHL, and AHL. I think the AHL is more crucial for the development of European and NCAA players than it is CHL players.

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07-10-2011, 07:24 PM
  #47
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The AHL is the next step after CHL. The question that you should be asking is if the CHL is better than college hockey.

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07-11-2011, 01:36 PM
  #48
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Just remember folks, the lock out year. That extra year in junior didn't hurt anyone from that 03 draft.

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07-12-2011, 05:34 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I always thought the best solution here would be to move the draft age to 19.

It would actually raise the level of play in Jr's because the handful of Halls, Seguins, Skinners and Fowlers of the world would remain in the league for another year.

It would allow teams to take their prospects and move them right into their own system, AHL, ECHL or NHL.

It would take some of the random luck out of the draft, with an extra year of evaluation time.

You'd probably get a dozen players out of the 1st round each year that could jump right to the NHL, as opposed to just 2 or 3. And that would provide a much quicker turnaround for teams finishing at the bottom of the standings, giving them viable NHL players, potential impact players, right away. Heck, that would even make the draft more of a must-see event, much like the NFL draft.
Completely agreed with this combined with the 4 year implementation of moving the age restrictions back 3 months at a time.

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07-12-2011, 10:41 AM
  #50
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AHL vs Junior all depends on the individual. IMO if Seguin didn't make the Bs I would have rather seen him go to the AHL because I don't think he had anything left to gain from going back to a league he already dominated. Actually, a WJHC may have been a nice learning experience but that's about it. Seguin was a but among men for most of this past year. A stint in the A would have been great for a guy like him. Dominates his age group but not ready to play against men.

We talk about top prospects but let's not forget about the lesser touted guys. An 18 year old 5th round pick who still needs to work on things like skill, size and speed would probably benefit from going back to the CHL where he can work on his game and build confidence by knowing he is a go-to guy on his team rather than being just another guy in the A.

There are pros and cons to each league but, like I said, it all depends on where the individual player is in their development.

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