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Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part III

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Old
07-09-2011, 12:08 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Vosie View Post
Given all the problems associated with the lad, why would the Jets want to continue to develop him. He doesn't sound like he's worth the effort based on the comments I've read here.
Thats why decisions like this are made by people with a far greater understanding of the topic. A GM can have a very different perspectve than a fan, not to mention almost all character flaws are heard by the fan base 10th hand, whereas the oranization would know the real scoop.

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07-09-2011, 12:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Canadian North View Post
Bogosian is not Chris Pronger, nor will he ever be even half of the player that Pronger is.

Bogosian has major character issues, huge flaws in his game, and was the worst defenseman on the Thrashers last season, possibly even the worst defenseman in the division not named Tyler Sloan. Zach plays when Zach wants to. He doesn't like being criticized, and by all reports, was NOT good with the coaching staff.

He needs to go while he still has some value. Bogosian is garbage.
He's 21 years old and has already played 3 seasons in the NHL... Most dman don't see that until they're 25. Unless they're like Alex Edler or Drew Doughty (and even he had a sophomore slump), most dman shouldn't be rushed. Now hopefully the Jets development system and coaching will work with him to better his game. Clearly Ramsey and the Thrashers thought rushing him into the best hockey league in the world was the best thing to do when it was clearly not.

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07-09-2011, 12:31 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
He's 21 years old and has already played 3 seasons in the NHL... Most dman don't see that until they're 25. Unless they're like Alex Edler or Drew Doughty (and even he had a sophomore slump), most dman shouldn't be rushed. Now hopefully the Jets development system and coaching will work with him to better his game. Clearly Ramsey and the Thrashers thought rushing him into the best hockey league in the world was the best thing to do when it was clearly not.
Ramsay didn't arrive till this past year.

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07-09-2011, 12:42 PM
  #29
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Ramsay didn't arrive till this past year.
My bad. I'm jumping on the bandwagon this year so I don't know much about the team prior to early May. To me he seems rushed, by whomever made that decision.

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07-09-2011, 12:50 PM
  #30
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My bad. I'm jumping on the bandwagon this year so I don't know much about the team prior to early May. To me he seems rushed, by whomever made that decision.
Waddell?

I don't think he was rushed as bad as people think. He would have likely just done a year at junior and then come up. He would have never made it to the AHL. He's too talented. Remember, he was lights out his rookie year and early into his 2nd year.

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07-09-2011, 12:50 PM
  #31
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I'm really starting to notice a trend here. It seems to be fans of the Thrashers against new fans of the Jets. I can totally understand the frustration of watching a VERY young and immature player with so much promise struggle. Bogosian is getting blamed for this, but in reality this is the orgs fault. They rushed him into the league before he was ready, and he is suffering for that. The biggest problem with bringing young blue chippers onto a team so young is it's usually done out of necessity, which tells us the team is bad. That means the environment for that player is one that fosters failure, not success. I've seen it time and time again.

Good organizations bring thier players along more slowly, and give them opportunity for success, not failure. They do this by surrounding them with vets, a winning environment, and temper expectations for the player with smaller roles to start, giving them more responsibility as they grow.

Putting a very young defenceman in a top 4 role against NHL superstars on a bad team is an absolute recipe for disaster.

Look at these comparisons:

Quote:
GP G A P PIM +/-

2008-09 Atl NHL 47 9 10 19 47 11
2009-10 Atl NHL 81 10 13 23 61 -18
2010-11 Atl NHL 71 5 12 17 29 -27

NHL Totals 199 24 35 59 137 -34
vs.
Quote:
1993-94 Har NHL 81 5 25 30 113 -3
1994-95 Har NHL 43 5 9 14 54 -12

1995-96 StL NHL 78 7 18 25 110 -18
NHL Totals 202 17 52 71 277 -35
Those 2 players? Bogosian and Chris Pronger. The differences?

-Chris was a year older than Zach in this sample (first 3 years in the NHL)
-In Prongers final year, he was on a veteran laden St. Louis Blues team with guys like Hull, MacInnis, Fuhr, and Shayne Corson.

It's no surprise in that final year, with veteran tutelage, a more stable team and less responsibility, Pronger started to grow and mature at the age of 22.

P.S. there are more examples, but I don't want this post to become a novel.

I will not be surprised to see Bogosians role pared back at the beginning of this season. Huddy will strip him down, get him working on the fundamentals of defensive hockey and slowly build him up again. Look to see Bogosian in the bottom pair for at least the beginning of the year, barring a spectacular preseason.

Just as patience is starting to pay off WRT the moves the new org is making here in Winnipeg, people need to step back and REALLY think about what Bogosian was being put through in Atlanta. I know when I was 19 I was in no shape to take on that kind of responsibility.

People who are saying he's 'garbage' and 'the worst defenceman in the NHL' etc. are being extremely unfair and short sighted.

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07-09-2011, 01:31 PM
  #32
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The Thrashers completely rushed Bogosian, 100% which messed him up. But he's been given every chance to play with EVERYBODY on the Thrashers...they even brought in his hero Chelios and Mathieu Schneider to teach him. He's had many different coaches. Nobody has gotten through to him.

It's short sighted to say a young player can't improve...but when you've seen the same kid not improve anything for several years since leaving juniors, you've got to wonder.

I also had the painful experience of watching Bogosian live many many many times. He has truly been one of the worst defencemen in the NHL. A handful of good games a year, that's it - the rest is horrible. And we're talking about standing out as horrible on a team that is already just about the worst defensive team in the league.

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07-09-2011, 01:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
People who are saying he's 'garbage' and 'the worst defenceman in the NHL' etc. are being extremely unfair and short sighted.
+1

He may be a work in progress but the defence position at the NHL level is the most difficult to master at a young age. Doughty is the exception, not the rule. Different players progress at different rates. I think that some of the Atlanta fans here are guilty of assuming that past performance is indicative of future results. There is a reason the kid was drafted so highly.

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07-09-2011, 02:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Magnus Fulgur View Post
The Thrashers completely rushed Bogosian, 100% which messed him up. But he's been given every chance to play with EVERYBODY on the Thrashers...they even brought in his hero Chelios and Mathieu Schneider to teach him. He's had many different coaches. Nobody has gotten through to him.

It's short sighted to say a young player can't improve...but when you've seen the same kid not improve anything for several years since leaving juniors, you've got to wonder.

I also had the painful experience of watching Bogosian live many many many times. He has truly been one of the worst defencemen in the NHL. A handful of good games a year, that's it - the rest is horrible. And we're talking about standing out as horrible on a team that is already just about the worst defensive team in the league.
Funny you should mention Chelios. He’s be an interesting choice as an assistant coach, and an absolutely fantastic trainer if he could even impart a 10th of what he knows about keeping in shape.

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Old
07-10-2011, 02:33 AM
  #35
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I think Huddy can help Bogosian play defense and Noel can help Bogosian between the ears. I'm hoping for a breakout year from him.

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07-10-2011, 04:08 AM
  #36
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You dont get rid of a 21 year old defenseman with that much upside when as Chevy said we are going to try and build from within.

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Old
07-10-2011, 06:48 AM
  #37
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Talk of trading Zach reminds me of the Braydon Coburn fiasco.We draft him 1st round (8th overall), had him 2 seasons on NHL ice and then Dwadd sends him to Philly in which case he develops into a very solid dman.Anyone remember who we got in exchange for Braydon,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wait for it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Alexei freak'n Zhitnik

Anyway,moral of the story is give Zach adequate time,training,etc to develop.I'm hoping that being in a true hockey market with much different expectations that he won't be allowed to coast and take shifts off and somebody PLEASE,make him accountable for being a defensive liability.I'm willing to give him a pass for less than impressive play in Atl to see him hopefully develop at the Peg.

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07-10-2011, 08:29 AM
  #38
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if we trade Bogosian, we may as well pack the franchise up and move them to Seattle. It would be a terrible move. Give him a couple of years minimum to show what he is capable of.

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07-10-2011, 11:19 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
I'm really starting to notice a trend here. It seems to be fans of the Thrashers against new fans of the Jets. I can totally understand the frustration of watching a VERY young and immature player with so much promise struggle. Bogosian is getting blamed for this, but in reality this is the orgs fault. They rushed him into the league before he was ready, and he is suffering for that. The biggest problem with bringing young blue chippers onto a team so young is it's usually done out of necessity, which tells us the team is bad. That means the environment for that player is one that fosters failure, not success. I've seen it time and time again.

Good organizations bring thier players along more slowly, and give them opportunity for success, not failure. They do this by surrounding them with vets, a winning environment, and temper expectations for the player with smaller roles to start, giving them more responsibility as they grow.

Putting a very young defenceman in a top 4 role against NHL superstars on a bad team is an absolute recipe for disaster.

Look at these comparisons:



vs.


Those 2 players? Bogosian and Chris Pronger. The differences?

-Chris was a year older than Zach in this sample (first 3 years in the NHL)
-In Prongers final year, he was on a veteran laden St. Louis Blues team with guys like Hull, MacInnis, Fuhr, and Shayne Corson.

It's no surprise in that final year, with veteran tutelage, a more stable team and less responsibility, Pronger started to grow and mature at the age of 22.

P.S. there are more examples, but I don't want this post to become a novel.

I will not be surprised to see Bogosians role pared back at the beginning of this season. Huddy will strip him down, get him working on the fundamentals of defensive hockey and slowly build him up again. Look to see Bogosian in the bottom pair for at least the beginning of the year, barring a spectacular preseason.

Just as patience is starting to pay off WRT the moves the new org is making here in Winnipeg, people need to step back and REALLY think about what Bogosian was being put through in Atlanta. I know when I was 19 I was in no shape to take on that kind of responsibility.

People who are saying he's 'garbage' and 'the worst defenceman in the NHL' etc. are being extremely unfair and short sighted.
Good Post. Need to give him a chance. If he fails with a new staff after a couple of years then part ways but no way would I give up now.

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Old
07-10-2011, 11:46 AM
  #40
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Braydon Coburn only played 41 games for Atlanta, and wasn't listening to the coaches for the Wolves or the Thrashers. Zhitnik was essential in getting the Thrashers to their one playoff spot. Nobody knew he'd get fat in the following off season (he looked awful when he showed up to camp, everyone was shocked).

Bogosian has played 199 games for this franchise, and mostly all in a second pairing role with all kinds of partners and coaches. You can't compare that to Braydon Coburn at all.

The problem with the Coburn situation was that the Atlanta franchise was a place where many prospects and newly acquired players were not happy with the way the place was run at all, and just wanted to get moved no matter what.

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07-10-2011, 12:06 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Magnus Fulgur View Post
Braydon Coburn only played 41 games for Atlanta, and wasn't listening to the coaches for the Wolves or the Thrashers. Zhitnik was essential in getting the Thrashers to their one playoff spot. Nobody knew he'd get fat in the following off season (he looked awful when he showed up to camp, everyone was shocked).

Bogosian has played 199 games for this franchise, and mostly all in a second pairing role with all kinds of partners and coaches. You can't compare that to Braydon Coburn at all.
The problem with the Coburn situation was that the Atlanta franchise was a place where many prospects and newly acquired players were not happy with the way the place was run at all, and just wanted to get moved no matter what.
Good points,but theres still similarities between the two.

Mostly i'm getting at that it would figure if we trade Zach away and he becomes a top dman some where else.

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07-10-2011, 01:35 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by 3rdManIn View Post
Good points,but theres still similarities between the two.

Mostly i'm getting at that it would figure if we trade Zach away and he becomes a top dman some where else.
That is my thinking as well.

Lets see how he does with a new coaching staff and new surroundings before contemplating a trade.

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07-10-2011, 03:00 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Magnus Fulgur View Post
Braydon Coburn only played 41 games for Atlanta, and wasn't listening to the coaches for the Wolves or the Thrashers. Zhitnik was essential in getting the Thrashers to their one playoff spot. Nobody knew he'd get fat in the following off season (he looked awful when he showed up to camp, everyone was shocked).

Bogosian has played 199 games for this franchise, and mostly all in a second pairing role with all kinds of partners and coaches. You can't compare that to Braydon Coburn at all.

The problem with the Coburn situation was that the Atlanta franchise was a place where many prospects and newly acquired players were not happy with the way the place was run at all, and just wanted to get moved no matter what.


EXACTLY.

Bogosian likely wasn't happy there either and when a player is affected in one way or another off the ice, it can consume him and affect him on the ice.

TNSE and Chevy are going to take their time, bring him in here and give him everything he needs to be successful.

It is very much like the Coburn situation in that the Organization sold low on a promising young defenseman for the mere chance to make the playoffs in 2006-07. Moves like that should only be made when you are a player or two away from being a serious Stanley cup contender which the Thrashers were not.

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07-10-2011, 03:04 PM
  #44
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Bogosian is not Chris Pronger, nor will he ever be even half of the player that Pronger is.

Bogosian has major character issues, huge flaws in his game, and was the worst defenseman on the Thrashers last season, possibly even the worst defenseman in the division not named Tyler Sloan. Zach plays when Zach wants to. He doesn't like being criticized, and by all reports, was NOT good with the coaching staff.

He needs to go while he still has some value. Bogosian is garbage.
....

There are reasons why he plays professionally and you and I are on the hockey forums boards. Being "garbage" is not one of them.


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07-10-2011, 03:27 PM
  #45
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Ok, I agree that it would be completely silly to trade Bogosian this season. Give Bogosian 2nd unit powerplay time where he thrives, and have him on the third pair with Stuart. If he can't hack it, he'll still have loads of trade value.

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07-10-2011, 03:32 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Magnus Fulgur View Post
Ok, I agree that it would be completely silly to trade Bogosian this season. Give Bogosian 2nd unit powerplay time where he thrives, and have him on the third pair with Stuart. If he can't hack it, he'll still have loads of trade value.
I really think this is the best idea for Bogo. Pull back the responsibility. Baby steps, let him get some confidence back.

When you are 19 and are playing against the very best forwards on the planet, you are probably going to get eaten up.

The best part about Bogosian, is that you can't teach talent but you CAN teach defensive positioning and smarts.

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07-10-2011, 08:14 PM
  #47
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I think they're preparing to bring Byfuglien back to forward (which is where he was when Cheveldayoff with still with the Hawks).

Bogosian moves up to the top pairing with Enstrom, Stuart/Hainsey/Oduya make up the #3-#5 and Jones becomes the new #6.
I don't see Buff playing up front. He's being paid $5.2M for the next umpteen years for a reason, that doesn't include getting 12-15 minutes a night playing on the third line. He's now a top pariing d-man. WPG will acquire forwards for that need.


Quote:
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I really think this is the best idea for Bogo. Pull back the responsibility. Baby steps, let him get some confidence back.

When you are 19 and are playing against the very best forwards on the planet, you are probably going to get eaten up.

The best part about Bogosian, is that you can't teach talent but you CAN teach defensive positioning and smarts.
The problem with Bogosian is that he still needs to be signed to a contract. And that will requires WPG to commit millions of dollars to a player they may have little faith in.

That's why Bogosian as a trading chip is a believable. I certainly don't foresee him being moved for veteran players that will cost WPG more than just Bogo. The Jets aren't their at this point in their development. However, the equivalent of Bogo's trade value at forward may be smart move. I'm thinking former Moose, Cody Hodgson.

The nice thing about Hodgson is, he's still got two years left on his ELC (which means a base salary much lower than the cap hit -- ideal for a cap floor strategy).

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07-10-2011, 08:39 PM
  #48
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The only way they trade him is if some other team makes us an offer that's equal to or higher than his maximum future potential as a 3rd overall defenceman pick. and i dont see that happening

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07-12-2011, 05:05 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Chevy has already stated that Bogosian is a piece they're going to build around.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...125063124.html



You hear alot of people who have been underwhelmed by his play and maddened by his inconsistency to date, but IMO it's still way too early to consider trading him. I could see him as a piece in blockbuster deal, but not in a veteran + draft picks deal, that just wouldn't make sense.
Kiss of death! Just kidding.. as an Oiler fan, I am just hoping that Bogo is available for a trade. But I couldn't see why the Jets would trade him.

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07-13-2011, 09:42 AM
  #50
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....

There are reasons why he plays professionally and you and I are on the hockey forums boards. Being "garbage" is not one of them.
He's obviously not "garbage", if you're in the NHL you're doing something right.

But Zach has some serious holes in his game that 3 years of NHL experience just haven't seemed to make smaller. It may be part of our former organization, although we had Craig Ramsay who is one of the best teachers in the NHL in one season was able to help multiple players on our roster with their individual games. He turned Hainsey from a former offensive d-man to our 2nd best shutdown defenseman behind Toby.

But Zach for some reason just kept regressing. Don't get me wrong, there were stages later in the year when he showed flashes of greatness, but who knows what that really means. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Zach is not hockey smart. He doesn't know what to do in his own zone, which is bad when you play defense. Hockey IQ is not something easily taught and that is my biggest issue with belieiving better days are ahead. Even his offensive game which was once poised to be his biggest upside has pretty much gone backwards. His shot, albeit powerful never hits the target and often ends up going around the boards creating a break for the opposition.

I'm not on the optimistic side with him because his attitude and work ethic have been questioned time and time again. Perhaps the change of scenery will help, but I will remain cautious.


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