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[VAN/FLA] Canucks trade F Sergei Shirokov to Florida F Mike Duco

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07-09-2011, 06:40 PM
  #76
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Gotta think if Filatov (4 years younger) got traded for a third rounder, the Shirokov market was more or less non-existent.

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07-09-2011, 06:55 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by James Woolf View Post
Gotta think if Filatov (4 years younger) got traded for a third rounder, the Shirokov market was more or less non-existent.
Filatov has a lot more question marks around his attitude. Plus Shirokov has been getting better every year leading up to a very solid playoffs in the AHL this year. He should have been able to get something a little more significant than what we ended up with.

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07-09-2011, 07:01 PM
  #78
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Filatov has a lot more question marks around his attitude. Plus Shirokov has been getting better every year leading up to a very solid playoffs in the AHL this year. He should have been able to get something a little more significant than what we ended up with.
We just signed a superior AHLer the same age as Shirokov for nothing.

Undersized mid-tier AHL players who are 25 years old and could go to the KHL at any point aren't commanding ANYTHING.

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07-09-2011, 07:18 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by James Woolf View Post
We just signed a superior AHLer the same age as Shirokov for nothing.

Undersized mid-tier AHL players who are 25 years old and could go to the KHL at any point aren't commanding ANYTHING.
While I agree that there isn't a rabid market for these players, I still believe we could have gotten a better return before the draft.

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07-09-2011, 07:43 PM
  #80
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I get the impression Gillis made this deal strictly because he wanted to show us all what Shirokov's trade value actually was.

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07-09-2011, 08:18 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by James Woolf View Post
And then he worked hard to improve his conditioning and his game after he got sent down to the AHL. Then he got called up and showed the improvements that he had made. Yes, his conditioning was crap at the start of the season, but didn't it count for anything since he clearly improved on it? It wasn't like he just completely neglected it after being called out for it and even acknowledging it himself. It's not fair to judge his crappy past performance when his more recent performance is more indicative of how well he could play.

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07-09-2011, 09:18 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by thenextone View Post
I wonder how many good prospects will flounder with AV at the helm of this team? Only guys who are first and foremost grinders ever get a shot at the lineup. Many fail (Bolduc, Glass, Rypien, Volpatti) and a few with some talent will succeed (Burrows, Kesler, Hansen). Guys like Grabner, Hodgson, Shroeder and Shirokov who have tons of skill but need to learn the gritty game will just get tossed aside to succeed elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
I will always hate AV for loving plugs like glass & rome and hating guys like Grabner & Shirokov. AV cannot stand players with offensive instincts, and he absolutely loves players DEVOID of any offensive abilities.
What a steaming load of crap.

In particular, how on earth is it Vigneault's fault that Hodgson and Schoeder sucked balls in the AHL this year?

And how exactly did Vigneault 'hate Grabner'?

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Originally Posted by Nazzy-19 View Post
What I don't understand is why people keep saying AV wouldn't play Grabner. AV even played Grabner in the playoffs on the 4th line over Tanner freakin Glass.

Grabner being traded had nothing to do with AV not wanting to play him, but rather with the structure of the team that Gillis envisioned.

AV may make weird lineup choices at times (ex: Ballard) and the Shirokov call up last year was handled awkwardly, but for the most part AV will make due with whatever players Gillis provides him.
Absolutely.

It's bizarre when people complain about how Grabner was handled by Vigneault.

Vigneault gave him a ton of icetime with good players over a 20-game stint last season. It would have been a 40-game stint except Grabner broke his leg in the middle of his time here.

Then he did exactly what everyone here wants and played Grabner in the playoffs on the 4th line ahead of Hordichuk and Glass.

Grabner wasn't traded because of Vigneault, he was traded because he was the most obvious/replaceable asset to move in a deal to upgrade our blueline.

__________

In any case, good trade.

Got a serviceable asset for a useless one. Hopefully Duco can come to camp and make a positive impression.

The love affair some people have with Shirokov is strange. Maybe he could have received a bit longer chance, but it's not like he was a good enough prospect to really care all that much about it.

For comparison's sake, a guy like Mancari who we signed last week is basically the same age and is in a completely different league as an AHL player. Guys of Shirokov's age/ability are a dime a dozen.

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Old
07-09-2011, 09:55 PM
  #83
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Looks like a decent trade

Shirokov had some real good spurts with the Moose and probably should have been given more of chance. For those of you saying Shirokov was not gritty enough I say you don't know what you are talking about. He went into traffic and was sturdy enough to give and take a hit. He played in close quarters very well at the AHL level. Shirokov, however, was marginal at the NHL level because he lacked speed from the blue line to the net and seemed to tire at times and fall into big periods of drought. When on his game was very good on the cycle in the offensive end but was never someone who could bust past you in open ice. Shirokov had to make it as top 6 player and this was never much of a certainty.

If Shirokov had been moved earlier then the Canucks might have gotten more for him. However, at this point you are glad to get anything back. Getting Duco is, I would say, a decent return at this point.

Thing I like about Duco is that he reminds me very much of Scott Walker. They are both good skaters, real physical and fearless in their play and both have and had showed a capacity to score. It was at the same point in his career that Walker left Vancouver and his career began to blossom. Not saying this happens for Duco but there is as much potential for this to happen than Shirokov busting out and becoming a top 6 player.

For those demanding the Canucks get grittier it is happening. Instead of getting the usual, and perhaps used up scrappers (such as Hordichuk) they are getting upper level AHL players who may be on the cusp of breaking thru. Whether this will work or not, or whether the Canucks are any better, is an open question. Yet, it now seems obvious that the Canucks had too much finesse (Shirkov, Grabner, Raymond, Samuelsson, etc) and too little grit and that imbalance is now being changed.
To clarify - I never said Shirokov "wasn't gritty enough", my criticism was that he simply wasn't strong enough at the NHL level. I noticed on many occasions in both of his stints that he was easily shoved off the puck or shoved off of his feet. It reminded me somewhat of when Burrows was first breaking into the NHL before the off-season where he bulked himself up; he had real trouble staying on his feet. That, to me, was the biggest thing holding Shirokov back.

I found his work ethic, grit level and character all to be laudible components of his game. He signed a two-year contract, came over and honored it even though it was less money than he could have received elsewhere, and now that it's done he has gone back to Russia. All admirable things.

But I disagree with the notion that he simply didn't get a chance and was somehow a superstar in the making were it not for the incompetence of the Vancouver coaching staff.

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:09 AM
  #84
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Isnt Shiro KHL bound? If so anything is better than what we had.

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07-10-2011, 12:16 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
To put things in perspective, Shirokov score 2 more goals than Duco in the AHL last year. In 10 or so more games played... Different players, but just food for thought.

Shirokov deserves a shot in the NHL, but some people seem to have a love-affair with the guy that is unwarranted. Didn't really do anything special that I saw. My only gripe is I argued for him to be traded months ago, clear for a long time he had no place here.

Mike Duco will be a decent NHL spark-plug, better than nothing, which is what Shirokov was worth to us 24 hours ago...
Also to put things in perspective, people excuse Shirokov's inability to put up great numbers at the AHL level by saying that he was on a weak offensive team and led the team in scoring anyway.

Duco was the leading goal scorer on a weak offensive team and he's a year younger than Shirokov. He was just as good a finisher as Shirokov last year. Obviously not as skilled, but if Shirokov wants to be a top 6 player in the NHL, he's going to have to show he can score a lot more than a Mike Duco.

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07-10-2011, 12:36 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
I will always hate AV for loving plugs like glass & rome and hating guys like Grabner & Shirokov. AV cannot stand players with offensive instincts, and he absolutely loves players DEVOID of any offensive abilities.
Jesus ****ing Christ. AV just took the highest-scoring team in the NHL to the Stanley Cup Finals. When the **** does summer vacation end?

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07-10-2011, 12:45 AM
  #87
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Jesus ****ing Christ. AV just took the highest-scoring team in the NHL to the Stanley Cup Finals. When the **** does summer vacation end?
Careful with the righteous indignation...AV took the highest scoring team into the playoffs, where they suddenly became one of the worst scoring teams in the league. People will have their criticisms of AV, he's a good coach but he's not above criticism.

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07-10-2011, 12:48 AM
  #88
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Careful with the righteous indignation...AV took the highest scoring team into the playoffs, where they suddenly became one of the worst scoring teams in the league. People will have their criticisms of AV, he's a good coach but he's not above criticism.
So he accidentally had the highest-scoring team over 82 games? He's so incompetent that he screwed up at stifling the offense?

Playing Grabner 14min/game, including PP time is "hating" him? Vigneault left a bunch of toy trucks on the ground for Grabner to slip on while kicking the soccer ball around?


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07-10-2011, 12:56 AM
  #89
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Careful with the righteous indignation...AV took the highest scoring team into the playoffs, where they suddenly became one of the worst scoring teams in the league. People will have their criticisms of AV, he's a good coach but he's not above criticism.
Intelligent criticism is fine.

Saying "AV HATES SKILLED PLAYERS!!" is moronic. Who would honestly believe that?

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07-10-2011, 12:57 AM
  #90
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Careful with the righteous indignation...AV took the highest scoring team into the playoffs, where they suddenly became one of the worst scoring teams in the league. People will have their criticisms of AV, he's a good coach but he's not above criticism.
It's funny though, when teams do really well while not scoring many goals usually all the credit either goes to the goalie playing out of his mind, or to the coach for getting everyone to play a real tight system.

Half the people here think we made it to the finals in spite of Luongo, while the other half think it was in spite of AV.

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07-10-2011, 01:17 AM
  #91
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It's not that AV hates skilled players. It's that he doesn't know how to develop guys like Shirokov, Grabner and others who are not relentlessly good at being checking forwards.

AV needs to be spoonfed his top 6 and really hasn't much clue on how to manage those guys. Case in point how long it took for him to put Burr with Kes in the Chicago series, and curiously never put them back to together despite the Sedins getting mauled throughout the Boston series.

When it comes to the bottom 6, AV goes to town. He has a definite idea of what he wants down there and has very specific requirements of his players. Guys like Glass, Volpatti, Bolduc, Oreo all do what AV likes, which is grind. Guys like Hansen, Hodgson, Tambi, Shirokov, Grabner etc do not (or did not) have that aspect of their games down and as a result have no place in AV's bottom 6. Hansen improved and is now out of the doghouse. Kesler and Burrows were great at their roles and moved up the lineup as their skills shone through.

For those saying he won't bench the Sedins. Can you imagine the Sedins if they were rookies today with AV as their coach? They would be on waivers in no time.

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07-10-2011, 01:20 AM
  #92
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Jesus ****ing Christ. AV just took the highest-scoring team in the NHL to the Stanley Cup Finals. When the **** does summer vacation end?
Doesn't make any difference if the season is going or not.

If we start the year 15-3, the 'FIRE AV!!' thread will still be piling up posts from people who think he's a raging idiot who should be fired immediately because he isn't playing the consensus fan choice as the 4th line RW. Or because some prospect or other isn't being handed icetime on the deepest team in the league.

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07-10-2011, 01:40 AM
  #93
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It's not that AV hates skilled players. It's that he doesn't know how to develop guys like Shirokov, Grabner and others who are not relentlessly good at being checking forwards.
Again, this is utter rubbish.

People say this crap about how he handled Grabner, and it just runs completely against the facts. He gave Grabner plenty of icetime, said nothing but good things about his play, and played him ahead of Glass in the 2010 playoffs.

Shirokov just isn't very good, and was the victim of being a middling scoring prospect playing for the deepest organization in the league.

If you want every medicore prospect to get a shot, go cheer for Edmonton. When you have a 117-point contending team that has tons of depth at every position, some guys are going to move on without getting a great look. Same thing happens in Detroit - see Ville Leino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenextone
When it comes to the bottom 6, AV goes to town. He has a definite idea of what he wants down there and has very specific requirements of his players. Guys like Glass, Volpatti, Bolduc, Oreo all do what AV likes, which is grind. Guys like Hansen, Hodgson, Tambi, Shirokov, Grabner etc do not (or did not) have that aspect of their games down and as a result have no place in AV's bottom 6. Hansen improved and is now out of the doghouse. Kesler and Burrows were great at their roles and moved up the lineup as their skills shone through.
Again, people seem to have selective memories here.

Tambellini played most of the 2nd half of this season on the 4th line.

Hodgson played 20 games there between the regular season and playoffs. Grabner was played in the 4th line in the 2010 playoffs.

Somehow, AV 'loves Volpatti' because he played him 10 games on the 4th line, but 'hates Tambellini' because he played him there most of the year? How does that make sense?

And guess what? Having a quality all-around game is bloody important. Giving big minutes to kids who can't play defense is a formula for losing.

Like I've said here a few times before, there are some posters here who would be much happier finishing 30th in the league while playing a bunch of rookies than finishing 1st with a great veteran team.

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07-10-2011, 01:57 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by thenextone View Post
It's not that AV hates skilled players. It's that he doesn't know how to develop guys like Shirokov, Grabner and others who are not relentlessly good at being checking forwards.

AV needs to be spoonfed his top 6 and really hasn't much clue on how to manage those guys. Case in point how long it took for him to put Burr with Kes in the Chicago series, and curiously never put them back to together despite the Sedins getting mauled throughout the Boston series.

When it comes to the bottom 6, AV goes to town. He has a definite idea of what he wants down there and has very specific requirements of his players. Guys like Glass, Volpatti, Bolduc, Oreo all do what AV likes, which is grind. Guys like Hansen, Hodgson, Tambi, Shirokov, Grabner etc do not (or did not) have that aspect of their games down and as a result have no place in AV's bottom 6. Hansen improved and is now out of the doghouse. Kesler and Burrows were great at their roles and moved up the lineup as their skills shone through.

For those saying he won't bench the Sedins. Can you imagine the Sedins if they were rookies today with AV as their coach? They would be on waivers in no time.
pretty much. it's not a new thing, it's just the way AV coaches.

i can clearly recall a time before Raymond was a '2nd liner' that there was clear chemistry between Raymond+Kesler offensively that AV refused to take advantage of for months. you can say whatever you want about the two of them together now, as Kesler seems to have outgrown the idea of 'linemates', but there was a long stretch where the two players were a very good fit together, and there was a stretch for a good while before that where fans were clamouring for the two to be on a regular line together 5v5.

AV does some very positive things, and brings a lot of disciplined defensive play to the team. But there are still plenty of things where AV flounders and isn't at all effective as a coach.

And when you look at the Canucks being the highest scoring team last season...does that not strike you as an incredibly 'top-heavy' team? the type that everyone has forever claimed is not cut out for winning the cup? you simply cannot win the cup if your 3rd and 4th lines are not contributing very significantly.

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07-10-2011, 02:18 AM
  #95
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In my mind he should have been traded before the draft.
agreed. Would have preferred getting a draft pick for Shirokov but Duco is as good as can be expected at this point. I'm happy Gillis turned a lost asset into a player who will be in competing at training camp.

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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Shirokov created 4 or 5 scoring chances his first game and earned a longer look than he was given.
and it's not like there wasn't opportunity to give Shirokov a few games in the top 6. Raymond was pretty bleh all season and could have maybe benefited from playing some bottom 6 minutes. Sammy was injured most of the season and we had a pretty secure playoff spot.

Shirokov's skill-set could have been a perfect fit with Kesler...I could see them working a lot of give and go's just inside the blueline. It's a lot easier to get stronger at age 25 than it is to develop skill and vision.

We were a bit redundant at smallish, unphysical skilled top 6 W or bust prospects so even without the KHL element this is the kind of trade Gillis should have been looking to make anyway.

One stat on Duco that really jumps out is his 07-08 OHL playoffs where he put up 16goals in 20games. Adding a guy who draws even some comparisons to Scotty Walker is a good thing imo.

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07-10-2011, 02:21 AM
  #96
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If AV really hated skilled players as much as this board seems to suggest, then why wasn't there anyone to "goon" back the B's?

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07-10-2011, 02:26 AM
  #97
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pretty much. it's not a new thing, it's just the way AV coaches.

i can clearly recall a time before Raymond was a '2nd liner' that there was clear chemistry between Raymond+Kesler offensively that AV refused to take advantage of for months. you can say whatever you want about the two of them together now, as Kesler seems to have outgrown the idea of 'linemates', but there was a long stretch where the two players were a very good fit together, and there was a stretch for a good while before that where fans were clamouring for the two to be on a regular line together 5v5.

AV does some very positive things, and brings a lot of disciplined defensive play to the team. But there are still plenty of things where AV flounders and isn't at all effective as a coach.

And when you look at the Canucks being the highest scoring team last season...does that not strike you as an incredibly 'top-heavy' team? the type that everyone has forever claimed is not cut out for winning the cup? you simply cannot win the cup if your 3rd and 4th lines are not contributing very significantly.
41(104) - 19(94) - 26 (48)
15(39) - 41(73) - 18(50)
14(29) - 11(30) - 9(29)
9(17) - 6(12) - 13 (28)

The goals and point totals of our healthy forward core (post deadline). The offense from the bottom 6 was there, but injuries happen.

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07-10-2011, 02:28 AM
  #98
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Canucks are clearly bringing in THE BOYS. Mancari, Pinnzotto, Duco to add to Volpatti... Whose next Tony Soprano...

There will be a lot more Forgetaboutits in the dressing room.

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07-10-2011, 02:46 AM
  #99
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Canucks are clearly bringing in THE BOYS. Mancari, Pinnzotto, Duco to add to Volpatti... Whose next Tony Soprano...

There will be a lot more Forgetaboutits in the dressing room.
Also drafted Frankie Corrado this year.

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07-10-2011, 03:10 AM
  #100
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Doesn't make any difference if the season is going or not.

If we start the year 15-3, the 'FIRE AV!!' thread will still be piling up posts from people who think he's a raging idiot who should be fired immediately because he isn't playing the consensus fan choice as the 4th line RW. Or because some prospect or other isn't being handed icetime on the deepest team in the league.
Well we even had a few people who said they didn't even care if we won the cup, they thought AV should be fired because of how he handled Ballard, or Rome. I think that speaks volumes about some of our fanbase. I'm not a big AV supporter and I don't like a lot of his decisions but he gets results and thats what matters. As long as he keeps getting the wins, I'll bicker and complain about some of his decisions but I won't be forming any lynch mobs because it doesn't matter who is in charge, I'll disagree with them about something at some point.

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