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Are we currently, a BETTER PLAYOFF TEAM ??

View Poll Results: Is this a better playoff team ??
YES 39 27.27%
NO 57 39.86%
Not quite sure yet, need to see a few regular season games before I can decide 47 32.87%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-05-2011, 11:07 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No. It couldn't. This past year's playoff "run" was a disgrace and demanded a dismantling.
I guess we should dismantle the team every time we don't at least make the conference finals?

edit: I ask because I'm curious...what exactly are your criteria? I personally can't cite the players' effort, because so many freaking people were playing while they needed to be surgically repaired.

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Old
07-05-2011, 11:36 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
Have to wonder if Brodeur's starting to slow down though, not to mention they're defense is still shaky. It'll definitely be interesting to see how that team does. I'd be a bit surprised if they don't hire Hitch actually.
Brodeur has been pretty bad for two season now and was awful in the olympics. I don't see how he's going to improve.

I think the Flyers are a better playoff team mainly because of Bryzgalov and the extra size on the wing. I don't for a second think he's the savior or as good as Miller, Lundqvist or Thomas. They have taken a couple steps back without Richards and Carter but have taken 3 steps forward without the goaltending they had last year especially in the playoffs.

They couldn't close anybody out in the 3rd period all season. They blew so many solid leads and couldn't even get 1 stinking shutout. It took 7 games to beat a bad Buffalo team that seemed to score at will. Bobrovsky was too young and couldn't handle the speed and pressure and the other two just flat out suuuucked.

I think we all just want to forget all the back-breaking goals and softies we witnessed last season. Bryzgalov won't be perfect - but he will be a hell of a lot better. And Bob will learn from an elite Russian mentor.

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07-05-2011, 11:38 PM
  #153
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Brodeur missed a good amount of last season because a shot hit him wrong. That's not a desirable trait in a goalie.

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07-06-2011, 12:05 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I guess we should dismantle the team every time we don't at least make the conference finals?

edit: I ask because I'm curious...what exactly are your criteria? I personally can't cite the players' effort, because so many freaking people were playing while they needed to be surgically repaired.
You assume he has rational criteria?

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07-06-2011, 12:29 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No. It couldn't. This past year's playoff "run" was a disgrace and demanded a dismantling.
And yet the GM who thought Leighton/Boucher was a good enough goalie tandem at the start of the season and Bob/Boucher was good enough at the trade deadline still has his job.

And the coach who played musical chairs in net throughout the playoffs still has his job.

And the defensive core that was billed as one of the best in the league and looked horrible in the Boston series is still completely intacted.

I guess we're going by a loose definition of dismantle.

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07-06-2011, 01:10 AM
  #156
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We scored 256 goals last year as a team. We just removed 101 of them in trading away or not resigning 4 top 9 forwards (Versteeg and Zherdev combined basically acount as one whole player seeing how Zherdev was replaced in the lineup once we aquired Versteeg). Their "replacements" combined for 28 goals last year in the NHL. We have one guy who hasn't played in the NHL for the past 3 years or so and another that has NEVER played in the NHL. Prongers health is also a HUGE question mark going into next season. I don't care how good everyone thienks Coburn, Meszaros or Carle are without Pronger our defense blows. Timonen is older and started to show his age a bit LAST year in the playoffs. We have NOBODY to play the defensive forward position seeing how we traded away our 3 best defensive forwards (Richards, Carter and Versteeg) so we have no chance at all of shutting down any teams second line let alone the likes of Crosby, Stamkos or Ovi. Yes we improved in goal but unless he can carry this team singlehandedly (and he'll have to do just that with the guys in front of him this year) how in the hell could be POSSIBLY be a better playoff team???

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07-06-2011, 01:26 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
We scored 256 goals last year as a team. We just removed 101 of them in trading away or not resigning 4 top 9 forwards (Versteeg and Zherdev combined basically acount as one whole player seeing how Zherdev was replaced in the lineup once we aquired Versteeg). Their "replacements" combined for 28 goals last year in the NHL. We have one guy who hasn't played in the NHL for the past 3 years or so and another that has NEVER played in the NHL. Prongers health is also a HUGE question mark going into next season. I don't care how good everyone thienks Coburn, Meszaros or Carle are without Pronger our defense blows. Timonen is older and started to show his age a bit LAST year in the playoffs. We have NOBODY to play the defensive forward position seeing how we traded away our 3 best defensive forwards (Richards, Carter and Versteeg) so we have no chance at all of shutting down any teams second line let alone the likes of Crosby, Stamkos or Ovi. Yes we improved in goal but unless he can carry this team singlehandedly (and he'll have to do just that with the guys in front of him this year) how in the hell could be POSSIBLY be a better playoff team???
JVR?


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07-06-2011, 02:08 AM
  #158
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sure is a lot of doom and gloom in this thread.


bunch of debbie downers

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07-06-2011, 06:50 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I still think the loss of Pronger was a big factor in the playoff fiasco. If the defense is healthy, I think the team can do decent. .
Depending so much on a banged up ancient Dman. Very sad. Carle, Coburn, Meszaros, Timo.... all that talent and yet Philly is next to worthless without Pronger?

Hopefully a good goalie will change that situation. Even still, I wanna see some of the other Dmen step up and become adults (Mesz has done so, but hello Coburn? Carle, are you there?)

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07-06-2011, 06:58 AM
  #160
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Goals a problem?

Book JVR for 30+
Briere 30+
Jagr 25
Giroux 25
Schenn 15-25
Simmonds 20
Voracek 15

There is 160 right there. Thats being conservative. Factor in the goals scored from the remaining 5 players, and the defensive goal totals, and maybe, just maybe factor in that this team may actually be able to play together efficently and we might be on to a winner.

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07-06-2011, 07:11 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
There is 160 right there. Thats being conservative. Factor in the goals scored from the remaining 5 players, and the defensive goal totals, and maybe, just maybe factor in that this team may actually be able to play together efficently and we might be on to a winner.
Predicting 25 for Jagr, up to twenty-freaking-five for Schenn, and 20 for Simmonds is being conservative?

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07-06-2011, 07:12 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Goals a problem?

Book JVR for 30+
Briere 30+
Jagr 25
Giroux 25
Schenn 15-25
Simmonds 20
Voracek 15

There is 160 right there. Thats being conservative. Factor in the goals scored from the remaining 5 players, and the defensive goal totals, and maybe, just maybe factor in that this team may actually be able to play together efficently and we might be on to a winner.
Those are pretty optimistic goal totals.

JVR and Roo have never been the main focus of the opposition's best defense and best defensive forwards. Briere's line was not good the last half of the season last year. Jagr is a huge question mark, and Schenn is a rookie who has played 7 NHL games.

If they hit those targets, and don't give up a lot more than they did, they'll be fine. But that's a whole lot of ifs.

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07-06-2011, 07:59 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
...the goalie tandem...the coach...the defensive core...
Your post is a perfect example of the phenomenon to which I refer - for Richards and Carter fans, there's always someone else to blame for the team's failures.

We changed coaches during their Era. We changed goaltenders during their Era. We changed the blueline corps during their Era.

The end of last year was a disgrace. The Flyers weren't going to fire yet another coach. So they dug deeper into the "leadership". I know it is a bummer for those who have, in essence, "grown up" with Richards and Carter, but it was time to swap them out. I get that it stinks for their fans but it was time for change.

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07-06-2011, 08:45 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Goals a problem?

Book JVR for 30+
Briere 30+
Jagr 25
Giroux 25
Schenn 15-25
Simmonds 20
Voracek 15

There is 160 right there. Thats being conservative. Factor in the goals scored from the remaining 5 players, and the defensive goal totals, and maybe, just maybe factor in that this team may actually be able to play together efficently and we might be on to a winner.
I want to see your optimistic goal totals.

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07-06-2011, 09:08 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Goals a problem?

Book JVR for 30+
Briere 30+
Jagr 25
Giroux 25
Schenn 15-25
Simmonds 20
Voracek 15

There is 160 right there. Thats being conservative. Factor in the goals scored from the remaining 5 players, and the defensive goal totals, and maybe, just maybe factor in that this team may actually be able to play together efficiently and we might be on to a winner.
Here's what these players put up last season, and the differential to get to where Spongolium targetted:

JVR 21; +9 (or more)
Briere 34; 0
Jagr n/a (19 in 49 KHL games)
Giroux 25; 0
Schenn 0 (in 8 games); +15-25
Simmonds 14; +6
Voracek 14; +1

The Jagr and Schenn numbers may be wishful, and JvR will need to continue his huge upswing in play from last season, but overall I don't think this is unreasonable. Add in Hartnell and about 25 goals (+1 from last season), and this team should be able to score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl
JVR and Roo have never been the main focus of the opposition's best defense and best defensive forwards. Briere's line was not good the last half of the season last year. Jagr is a huge question mark, and Schenn is a rookie who has played 7 NHL games.
While JvR and Giroux may not have been the #1 target against the opposition's top shut-down line, neither was hidden on the 3rd-4th line either. And despite the drop in talent with Richards-Carter gone, the Flyer can still run out three formidable scoring lines, meaning that Schenn-Simmonds-??? will should have a freer time to develop their scoring touch.

Like you pointed out, too, CharlieGirl, the Briere line tailed off significantly in the latter half of the season. And yet, Briere still put up 34 goals and Hartnell 24. At worst, a more consistent season means they hit these marks again, if not a tad higher.

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07-06-2011, 09:12 AM
  #166
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i hate when people say jagr wont score 20...if jags is healthy hell score 25-30 easily

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07-06-2011, 09:18 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Here's what these players put up last season, and the differential to get to where Spongolium targetted:

JVR 21; +9 (or more)
Briere 34; 0
Jagr n/a (19 in 49 KHL games)
Giroux 25; 0
Schenn 0 (in 8 games); +15-25
Simmonds 14; +6
Voracek 14; +1

The Jagr and Schenn numbers may be wishful, and JvR will need to continue his huge upswing in play from last season, but overall I don't think this is unreasonable. Add in Hartnell and about 25 goals (+1 from last season), and this team should be able to score.



While JvR and Giroux may not have been the #1 target against the opposition's top shut-down line, neither was hidden on the 3rd-4th line either. And despite the drop in talent with Richards-Carter gone, the Flyer can still run out three formidable scoring lines, meaning that Schenn-Simmonds-??? will should have a freer time to develop their scoring touch.

Like you pointed out, too, CharlieGirl, the Briere line tailed off significantly in the latter half of the season. And yet, Briere still put up 34 goals and Hartnell 24. At worst, a more consistent season means they hit these marks again, if not a tad higher.
Last year was the second best goal scoring season of Briere's career. You should expect less, not more from him next year.

Of course, the bigger question will be whether his line can hold itself above water defensively next year.

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07-06-2011, 09:20 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by flyguys7475 View Post
i hate when people say jagr wont score 20...if jags is healthy hell score 25-30 easily
I expect him to put up some points, but doubt he will "easily" threaten 30.

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07-06-2011, 09:20 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by flyguys7475 View Post
i hate when people say jagr wont score 20...if jags is healthy hell score 25-30 easily
People don't understand the difference between the KHL and the NHL.

All people need to do is go look at the 2004-05 RSL/ KHL stats to see how players like Ovechkin and Kovalchuk were well below PPG and the next season in the NHL they scored 52 goals each.

Being PPG in the KHL doesn't mean a player will automatically drop to below PPG in the NHL just because the NHL is a "better league". Certain players are more built for the NHL and Jagr is the prime example of this. He's big, strong, actually is faster now than he was in his last NHL season, he's got the hands, the vision and people say he's in the best shape of his career.

This is what Jagr says about the KHL and the NHL.

Quote:
Q: Do you feel after not being in the NHL for several years that you can jump back into NHL hockey and be a productive player?

I don’t know. There’s no guarantees. I hope so. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t have come here. I could easily stay in Russia, make a lot more money and play 60 games. I wanted to try it. I wanted to have the feeling. I believe it’s for my good, and hopefully the team too.

Q: Can you compare the level of play in the KHL to the NHL?

“I’ve always said that the league is a totally different game on the big ice. That’s why there’s so many great players who play on the small ice that when they come on the big ice, they can’t play. It’s a totally different game. It’s tough to compare. If you had asked me three years ago, I would have told you I love to play on the small ice. I played there for 17 years. I felt a lot stronger than anybody, and I can play on the boards. It was a lot easier for me to play hockey on the small ice. But when I get to the big ice, I had to get used to it. I couldn’t play the same style. I had to change, had skate a lot more. You cannot stand. You have to skate a lot more. I think I’m better than I was, but you have to skate all the time. If you stand there, you don’t have a chance to play on the big ice.


Last edited by livewell68: 07-06-2011 at 09:28 AM.
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07-06-2011, 09:51 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Your post is a perfect example of the phenomenon to which I refer - for Richards and Carter fans, there's always someone else to blame for the team's failures.
Or could it be that they failed as a TEAM. That almost everyone fell apart, Richards and Carter included.

If you want to dismantle the team, then dismantle it

Fire the GM who put together an absolute embarrassing goaltending group and said it was good enough to win a cup.
Fire the coach who had absolutely no answer to pull them out of their tailspin and was completely out coached in the Bruins series\
Trade the defense that was supposed to be one of the best and played like cheese down the stretch and in the playoffs
And
Trade the young core that you built around


That would be a true dismantling of the team

But I guess its much easier to say well Carter and Richards like to drink. Trade them. Problem solved!

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07-06-2011, 10:53 AM
  #171
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Without looking at the numbers, it seemed the past 2 playoffs carter was hurt and missed significant time and in the cup finals he clearly wasn't himself. So, I guess the question is going to be was giving up richards for the new guys and Bryz better for the playoffs? Ill say yes for now :-/

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07-06-2011, 11:40 AM
  #172
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I expect him to put up some points, but doubt he will "easily" threaten 30.
Homer predicted Jagr would get somewhere between 50 and 70 points. Lots of margin for error there! I'm definitely in wait and see mode for this one.

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07-06-2011, 12:20 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Goals a problem?

Book JVR for 30+
Briere 30+
Jagr 25
Giroux 25
Schenn 15-25
Simmonds 20
Voracek 15

There is 160 right there. Thats being conservative. Factor in the goals scored from the remaining 5 players, and the defensive goal totals, and maybe, just maybe factor in that this team may actually be able to play together efficently and we might be on to a winner.
edit: It was really telling when Jagr pointed out Briere and Giroux as RH shots as a reason he signed with the team. He's very smart, and thinks about these types of things to put himself in the best position to succeed. As long as he's healthy and fit, he can push 70+ points on our top 2 lines.

Voracek was a victim of a lack of skill in CLB. They've got a very good team of forwards, but the only real skill guy is Nash. He should flourish with some playmakers. I could see him getting 60+ points as well.

I think those are fairly accurate, and I'm confident Voracek will score more than 15. Jagr could have more (or less) and Schenn I'll lean more towards the 15


Last edited by sobrien: 07-06-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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07-06-2011, 12:45 PM
  #174
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I think those are fairly accurate, and I'm confident Voracek will score more than 15. Jagr could have more (or less) and Schenn I'll lean more towards the 15
Hartnell 20+ too!

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07-10-2011, 03:56 AM
  #175
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Let me start out by saying I like both Richards (top 10 all time favorite Flyer) and Carter (top 30). I loved their Propp - Poulin imitation in 08-09 and thought they would be superstars.

Both trades were well done. You don't lock in two players to NMCs with 5+ million long term contracts when they consistently don't show in the playoffs (availability is an ability) Add in the party/leadership stuff and these trades returned impressive value.

Richards played 63 playoff games and scored 1 game winner.
Carter played 47 and scored 2 game winners (sniper?)
You are familiar with Alexander Semin's playoff label?
He has 3 GWGs in 37 playoff games?

The Flyers lose as many playoff GWGs with Zherdev and Carcillo.

Richards/Carter (-7 and -6) did not hold Toews (-5) to anything. Lines 1 vs 1 rarely played against each other. The rest of the team scored 20 goals in that series. Our "2 best players" scored 2 times. If they scored 5 times, there would have been a parade.

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