HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2007 NHL Draft: One of the best Habs draft in recent memory

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-10-2011, 11:04 AM
  #51
neofury*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Conventional wisdom says if you get 2 NHL players out of 7 picks, you've done well for yourself. That's distilling drafting down to its most basic, but there you have it.

Timmins so far as at least 4 in the '04 (counting Yemelin, maybe premature), '05 and '07 drafts. '06 might as well - White, Maxwell, Valentenko and Carle aren't stars but they could carve out NHL careers.

I know people are mad over Montreal's inability to draft and develop a bonafide star but in terms of pure consistency, that's pretty damn remarkable.
We already have one in PK Subban. I don't really know what people expect, for Timmins the rob the draft year after year and for us to be the most stacked team in the NHL? Landing a superstar even in a decade is good. Some teams won't.

We have Price and Subban. Other teams have just one or even none. They're young but when they both get some more experience they'll be our Crosby/Malkin. Not saying they'll be in the same mold obviously but they are going to be our big 2.

neofury* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 12:25 PM
  #52
Em Ancien
Sexy 2nd Rounder
 
Em Ancien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mount Real Life
Posts: 8,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
We already have one in PK Subban. I don't really know what people expect, for Timmins the rob the draft year after year and for us to be the most stacked team in the NHL? Landing a superstar even in a decade is good. Some teams won't.

We have Price and Subban. Other teams have just one or even none. They're young but when they both get some more experience they'll be our Crosby/Malkin. Not saying they'll be in the same mold obviously but they are going to be our big 2.
Subban isn't quite there yet to be honest. But most people who complain are usually talking about a superstar up front.

And the fact we didn't get one in 2003 when we had the 10th overall pick is usually the biggest knock on Timmins.

I'm not so big on the Timmins bashing, but there is some merit to the criticism of our lack of production in the 1st round AND our lack of solid top 6 players coming from our system in his stay (then again, we dealt 2 top 6 guys from Belarus for what amounts to Greg Pateryn at this point).

Em Ancien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 12:52 PM
  #53
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Subban isn't quite there yet to be honest. But most people who complain are usually talking about a superstar up front.

And the fact we didn't get one in 2003 when we had the 10th overall pick is usually the biggest knock on Timmins.

I'm not so big on the Timmins bashing, but there is some merit to the criticism of our lack of production in the 1st round AND our lack of solid top 6 players coming from our system in his stay (then again, we dealt 2 top 6 guys from Belarus for what amounts to Greg Pateryn at this point).
I agree we are not very good at drafting forwards that could end up in our top 6. However Pacioretty could be on his way there on day. Timmins makes up for it by drafting NHL caliber defenceman and superstar goalies.

HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 01:00 PM
  #54
neofury*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,277
vCash: 500
Pacioretty top 6.
Kostitsyn top 6.
Eller (traded but still) top 6
Palushaj could even be a 2.5 liner, 3rd liner who can sometimes step up and play the 2nd.

I'll admit none of the above are true top line players. I still have hope Eller and Patches could be though.

If Patches starts putting up 30-30-60 on our team, that would translate to probably 80+ points on Crosby's wing. It remains to be seen of course just saying he could potentially be a top line forward.

neofury* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 01:01 PM
  #55
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Pacioretty top 6.
Kostitsyn top 6.
Eller (traded but still) top 6

Palushaj could even be a 2.5 liner, 3rd liner who can sometimes step up and play the 2nd.

I'll admit none of the above are true top line players. I still have hope Eller and Patches could be though.
Kostitsyn was top 6 with the Habs but he shouldn't be there, way too inconsistent. Eller was not drafted by Timmins.

HH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 04:49 PM
  #56
montreal
Moderator
Go Habs Go
 
montreal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Sark
Posts: 23,994
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Basically, every first round pick of Timmins works out except for David Fischer and Kyle Chipchura, and those are the two guys who suffered devastating injuries in junior.
What devastating injury did David Fischer have?

montreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 04:53 PM
  #57
Little Nilan
Registered User
 
Little Nilan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Praha
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 8,209
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Little Nilan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Subban isn't quite there yet to be honest. But most people who complain are usually talking about a superstar up front.

And the fact we didn't get one in 2003 when we had the 10th overall pick is usually the biggest knock on Timmins.

I'm not so big on the Timmins bashing, but there is some merit to the criticism of our lack of production in the 1st round AND our lack of solid top 6 players coming from our system in his stay (then again, we dealt 2 top 6 guys from Belarus for what amounts to Greg Pateryn at this point).
2003 was Timmins' first draft, so I can understand the failure a bit (though I'll add he did get Sergei with a 7th...). If you read what turnbuckle has said on the subject, he wanted Getzlaf initially. I know Savard wanted Carter. Both great choices, it's just too bad we ended up with Kostitsyn, even though he easily has the talent to be a perennial 30-40 goal scoring 70-80 point forward.

Little Nilan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 04:57 PM
  #58
Iwishihadacup
Registered User
 
Iwishihadacup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
What devastating injury did David Fischer have?
Appendicitis really screwed his first year as our prospect

Iwishihadacup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 04:59 PM
  #59
montreal
Moderator
Go Habs Go
 
montreal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Sark
Posts: 23,994
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
Appendicitis really screwed his first year as our prospect
Missing 2 games is not what I would call a devastating injury though.

montreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 05:00 PM
  #60
Satan
& try another year
 
Satan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Country: Palestine
Posts: 43,012
vCash: 500
Subban was an excellent pick

Satan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 05:04 PM
  #61
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald View Post
Subban was an excellent pick
Timmins has drafted pretty much all you can ask for expect for that superstar forward, which is rarer than we think. However it is still a lack.

Halak
Price

Two number goalies and two potential franchise goalies in just a little over 8 draft years with the team.

Subban
Streit

Streit became part of the best powerplay QBs in the league. Subban seems to be on his way as well. He also appears to be developing into a superstar defenseman. He's not there yet, but is close.

He's also drafted a host of top 6 forwards in...
Latendresse
Pacioretty
Andrei Kostitsyn
Sergei Kostitsyn
Grabovski

He's also drafted pretty decent role players in
Lapierre
O'byrne
White

Still unknown
Yemelin
Weber
Leblanc
Avstin

and a whole host of others

Is he perfect? No! Has he done a pretty good job...yes!

He's just missing that superstar forward to complete a very good resume.

Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 05:27 PM
  #62
Iwishihadacup
Registered User
 
Iwishihadacup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Missing 2 games is not what I would call a devastating injury though.
Short memory? I remember reading so many reports at this point on how much this operation affected him (important weight loss, lower body pain and others), then there was his mother's sickness which pretty much sealed the deal

Iwishihadacup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 05:54 PM
  #63
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
Short memory? I remember reading so many reports at this point on how much this operation affected him (important weight loss, lower body pain and others), then there was his mother's sickness which pretty much sealed the deal
There is a difference between a slower progression than expected...and no progression whatosever.

Whitesnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 06:08 PM
  #64
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,364
vCash: 500
It's one thing to say that they are the best. It's another to see the end-result of such drafts on the ice. At one point, whether it's Timmins or the organization, an incredible head scout and a great organization that excels in development, has to show. You shouldn't have to buy yourself a team when you are so great in that area.

No contest that Timmins is the greatest at recognizing NHL talent. What Timmins was able to do with Subban and Price, he wasn't able to do it up front though......yet. MaxPac might change it.

And maybe if we would have develop them properly, so would SKost....and Grabs....and Lats. But we will never know. But as we speak, in this whole organization, I only see 2 players that might be top 6 players. Kristo and Eller. Leblanc might be it as well. We'll see how that turn out.

Whitesnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 06:52 PM
  #65
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,874
vCash: 500
Fine, the 2007 draft was productive, but the Habs can't be content with that. They have to keep picking ad developing players. Meanwhile, other teams haven't pushed the PAUSE button and many of them have at least kept pace.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 06:57 PM
  #66
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,451
vCash: 500
Pretty average, lots of teams draft several players who become 3rd and 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen. The best teams draft the elite players or get diamonds in the later rounds. Yes this was a good year but on average we still havn't addressed our biggest needs.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:03 PM
  #67
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 7,802
vCash: 500
Which teams have consistently drafted offensive diamonds in the second round and higher since 2003 onward?

DAChampion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:05 PM
  #68
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Pretty average, lots of teams draft several players who become 3rd and 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen. The best teams draft the elite players or get diamonds in the later rounds. Yes this was a good year but on average we still havn't addressed our biggest needs.
The thing is that Pacioretty, the kostitsyns, Latendresse and Grabovski are not 3rd or 4th liners and Subban, Streit and Mcdonaugh are not bottom pairing defensemen. As was pointed out Timmins has drafted two stars in Price and Subban. You're right he hasn't drafted the big forward yet, but to say he has been average is just false. He"s not the best, but he's far from average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
None of them are 1st line players and none are top pairing dmen. If we are always going to trades and FA for our best players we will always be taking a step backwards.
But that is not what your post said. You backed off from giving Timmins credit because you said he drafted mostly bottom pairing defensemen and 3rd and 4th liners which is just false. He drafted a pretty generous amount of top 6 forwards. Subban is a top pairing defensemen and we will continue to progress as such. Subban was pretty much our #1 last year and his minutes reflected that as well as the opposition he faced. You are right, Streit and McDonaugh are not top pairing defensmens, but they are not scrubs. Both are very good top 4 defensemen(we will also see what Yemelin is made of this year, so in that regard the amount of top 4 dmen he has drafted is pending).

You're right we haven't drafted any first line players, but that wasn't the subject of your previous post.

As for always trading for your best players will always make you take a step backwards...I'm not too sure about that. The Boston Bruins just recently won with having their key players composed mostly on traded players(Horton, Chara, Thomas are not native to Boston and played a huge role in their win). Of course, drafted players such as Bergeron, Krejci and Marchand also played key roles in that win, but Marchand and Begeron are not 1st line players. As for Krecji, I'm on the fence as to whether or not he is a first line player or whether he is in the mold of a Plekanec.

Anyway, the whole point of your first post is that Timmins drafted mainy 3rd and 4th liners and bottom pairing defensemen. This is false. He hasn't drafted 1st line forwards, but that wasn't part of your first complaint. Also, the whole idea of your best players being acquired by FA and trades makes you take a step back is also extremely debatable. Lastly, in relation to that last point, ask most habs fans who are the habs most important players and the majority of them will give you a list of Plekanec, Subban, Markov, Price and maybe Pacioretty, all of which are habs draftees. Does it need to improved? Yes....does that mean it's been bad....No.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-10-2011 at 07:49 PM. Reason: merged
Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:14 PM
  #69
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
The thing is that Pacioretty, the kostitsyns, Latendresse and Grabovski are not 3rd or 4th liners and Subban, Streit and Mcdonaugh are not bottom pairing defensemen. As was pointed out Timmins has drafted two stars in Price and Subban. You're right he hasn't drafted the big forward yet, but to say he has been average is just false. He"s not the best, but he's far from average.
None of them are 1st line players and none are top pairing dmen. If we are always going to trades and FA for our best players we will always be taking a step backwards.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:41 PM
  #70
TheBuriedHab
Registered User
 
TheBuriedHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
None of them are 1st line players and none are top pairing dmen. If we are always going to trades and FA for our best players we will always be taking a step backwards.
Subban isn't a top pairing Defenseman? Wow. What are your standards?

TheBuriedHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:46 PM
  #71
Little Nilan
Registered User
 
Little Nilan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Praha
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 8,209
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Little Nilan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's one thing to say that they are the best. It's another to see the end-result of such drafts on the ice. At one point, whether it's Timmins or the organization, an incredible head scout and a great organization that excels in development, has to show. You shouldn't have to buy yourself a team when you are so great in that area.

No contest that Timmins is the greatest at recognizing NHL talent. What Timmins was able to do with Subban and Price, he wasn't able to do it up front though......yet. MaxPac might change it.

And maybe if we would have develop them properly, so would SKost....and Grabs....and Lats. But we will never know. But as we speak, in this whole organization, I only see 2 players that might be top 6 players. Kristo and Eller. Leblanc might be it as well. We'll see how that turn out.
I don't think the blame lays on Timmins though. These players all succeeded up to the AHL. The way they were brought to the big club has a lot to do with how they fell afterwards.

IMO, Subban and Andrei Kostitsyn are examples of players that were exceptionnally well brought up to the big club. They almost missed their shot with Plekanec when they put him in a position to fail after the Ribeiro trade, but Plekanec has a mental toughness like few in the league. Higgins was perfectly brought up until he was rushed into a first line role, but it was necessary to get into the playoffs. I think the main problem is how they're handled once they get into a tough situation. Price was just horribly brought up, but he's the most talented goaltender in years. It's amplified by the fact these guys play in Montreal, but you'd expect the organization with its history would have more experience at handling the quirks of this city by now.


A. Kostitsyn, S. Kostitsyn, Grabovski, Pacioretty, Latendresse, Matt D'Agostini... tough to say Timmins can't draft offensive players considering he drafted a full top 6. What the GM does with these assets isn't his fault (the S.Kostitsyn, Latendresse and McDonagh trades bother me to this day, these were quality players, you don't just give them away). With Ribeiro, Plekanec and Koivu already on the club, Gainey had more than enough assets to get interesting players. I mean, add in Halak/Price, White/Lapierre/Chipchura and Subban/Streit/Mcdonagh/Emelin/O'Byrne/Weber... Timmins has actually drafted close to a whole NHL team since 2003. A team that could actually be competitive and maybe make the playoffs on the shoulders of its goaltender.

Right now though, I'm hating how the Habs not only are generally giving away assets and depleting the teams depth, but they're not using their best asset (Timmins) to replenish them by trading away all these picks. It's idiotic and can only work with an above average GM (Gauthier?).


Last edited by Little Nilan: 07-10-2011 at 07:55 PM.
Little Nilan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:52 PM
  #72
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Considering our draft position each year, I would grade Timmins an A+. He is probably the very best head scout at recognizing NHL talent. Trading picks for players like Lang has to be a much more calculated move when you see what Timmins can sometimes turn those picks into.

Out of all the members of Montreal's management team I would say he does the best job and should have the most job security ut of the bunch, not knocking the rest of the management, I just feel he does an outstanding job with what he has to work with (mid to late rd picks) every year.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 07:59 PM
  #73
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Considering our draft position each year, I would grade Timmins an A+. He is probably the very best head scout at recognizing NHL talent. Trading picks for players like Lang has to be a much more calculated move when you see what Timmins can sometimes turn those picks into.

Out of all the members of Montreal's management team I would say he does the best job and should have the most job security ut of the bunch, not knocking the rest of the management, I just feel he does an outstanding job with what he has to work with (mid to late rd picks) every year.
Agreed. Draft position is seldom looked at when evaluating picks. Sure everyone will bring out the occasional "Yah but Timmins missed X in this round", but forget that we can always do the same to other teams by referencing Streit, Halak, Subban and Sergei.

Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 08:09 PM
  #74
Em Ancien
Sexy 2nd Rounder
 
Em Ancien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mount Real Life
Posts: 8,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nilan View Post
2003 was Timmins' first draft, so I can understand the failure a bit (though I'll add he did get Sergei with a 7th...). If you read what turnbuckle has said on the subject, he wanted Getzlaf initially. I know Savard wanted Carter. Both great choices, it's just too bad we ended up with Kostitsyn, even though he easily has the talent to be a perennial 30-40 goal scoring 70-80 point forward.
To be honest, I was pretty happy with the pick at the time. Kostitsyn had wrecked most of the 03 top prospects at the U18s (namely Carter and Getzlaf).

It's actually pretty hilarious that a falling BPA was actually what cost us a great player.

Then again, a lot of people hating on Timmins for the 03 draft we're hanging on Steve 'the next Mike Bossy' Bernier's balls.

Em Ancien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-10-2011, 08:09 PM
  #75
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Agreed. Draft position is seldom looked at when evaluating picks. Sure everyone will bring out the occasional "Yah but Timmins missed X in this round", but forget that we can always do the same to other teams by referencing Streit, Halak, Subban and Sergei.
The two times he had higher picks he did pretty well too. Carey Price and AK. I still think AK is the most talented out of the bunch, remains to be seen if he'll ever explode for 30-40 goals. He has the talent to do it imo.

A lot of people harp about Richards, Carter, Getzlaf, which is easy in hindsight, but AK was very highly touted at the time, slotted ahead of all them by most reports I remember reading and argued as the most talented forward of the entire draft. Epilepsy was the main concern with why he was even available for us to pick and so far so good on that front.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.