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Old
07-10-2011, 02:44 PM
  #26
Jester
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It's funny when you get pissy and throw temper tantrums.

Remember when you didn't know Roy won a Cup with Montreal? Great resident expert.

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07-10-2011, 02:47 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Very little drama here, Chris. Long since wrote off your predictions as unrivaled homerism, it's just important that you don't send the fan base off the stupid optimism cliff. If Couterier registers 25-35-60 as normal production throughout his career, then that's a winning pick. Draft is littered with top prospects that fell far short of that bar.

BTW, it's quite unlikely that Couturier will ever register a 97 point season... Let alone multiple 80 point seasons. Not to mention pairing that with a beastly two-way game. If he does, then the pick is a HR.
Rod Brind'Amour: 0.80 PPG
Eric Staal: 0.90 PPG
Mike Richards: 0.77 PPG

Jordan Staal: 0.54 PPG

Sure, be excited that we got Jordan Staal.


I'm really getting sick of you. Brindy had four seasons breaking 80 points. You think that's out of the question for Couturier?

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07-10-2011, 02:47 PM
  #28
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NHL_Entry_Draft

Look at the players Jordan Staal was drafted over and I would say being a defensive specialist is pretty weak.

Definitely dont think he's better than Toews at either end of the ice. I would take Stewart or Kessels goal scoring ability over his "elite defense" and I would definitely take Backstrom or Giroux's play making abilities over Staal.

I would say Staal is kind of a disappointment. Just imagine if Pittsburgh had Toews or Backstrom as their third line center right now...scary!

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07-10-2011, 02:47 PM
  #29
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I really dont like comparing highly touted rookies to estalished NHL stars. Why dont we just let these kids develop and enjoy their progression as good hockey players for us(hopefully). I dont like getting into the hype. I am happy we have 2 highly touted forward prospects in our system. lets just simmer down some of our enthusiasm.
If you think I am a debbie downer or whatever the hell you want to call it, fine. I just would rather watch these kids develop into the first Couturier and Schenn.

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07-10-2011, 02:51 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's funny when you get pissy and throw temper tantrums.

Remember when you didn't know Roy won a Cup with Montreal? Great resident expert.
How old was I when that happened? Definitely not old enough to watch hockey.

You remember when you thought save percentage and goals-against-average were goaltending stats only, ones that were not impacted by other players?



I'm done with this conversation.

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07-10-2011, 02:51 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The only person on this board that is more ridiculously over the top with optimism than you when it comes to young players.

The issue is not whether Couterier has the potential to score more than Jordan Staal, but your characterization that such production would be disappointing. Which is a display of considerable ignorance with regard to what players actually produce in the NHL.

If Couterier turns into Jordan Staal, then we got an extremely good player.
And you're the only person on this board who still clamours for Hitchcock hockey. But hey, to each their own, right?

Fact is, a guy like Couturier very much matches well with Eric Staal. When you look at their games closely (and I suggest going to You Tube to look at Staal and then the QMJHL site to see Couturier), you'll see that they are very similar in stature and style when it comes to the game. While Couturier might not be the true goal scorer that Staal is, their games are very and eerily similar to one another.

I see nothing in Couturier's game that matches Jordan's. When you really think of it, Jordan has proven to be a good third line centerman, but if he's so good defensively, where are the Selke trophies? Yeah, he has a Stanley Cup, but he can think riding on the coat tails of Malkin and Fleury for that.

Seriously though, if you watch Couturier, you'll see that he's an Eric Staal clone. And I think 35 to 40 goals and 80 to 85 points is not out of character at all with regards to his future performance. And yeah, if he becomes a 20 goal, 55 point guy but is Primeau-like in terms of checking ability, then it is a disappointment because he has the tools to do more. And I'd blame the franchise for limiting Couturier to that kind of role.

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07-10-2011, 03:01 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Rod Brind'Amour: 0.80 PPG
Eric Staal: 0.90 PPG
Mike Richards: 0.77 PPG

Jordan Staal: 0.54 PPG

Sure, be excited that we got Jordan Staal.


I'm really getting sick of you. Brindy had four seasons breaking 80 points. You think that's out of the question for Couturier?
Right back at you. I mean, it's AWESOME to get scouting reports from a bartender in DC writing about players in upstate NY and Canada (not to mention Europe).

It isn't out of the question, it's just unlikely. As is the case for almost every 18 y.o drafted player, and why it is *ing stupid to label it a disappointment if they fall below that threshold. And, yes, what you said was stupid and displayed a deep ignorance of actual production rates in the NHL.

Also, thank you for once again proving that you are incompetent at statistical arguments.

Jordan Staal just finished his 22 y.o season. When Richards was his age he had one 20 goal season on his resume (28). He had amassed 141 pts in 211 games, or 0.67 PPG. Certainly better, but nothing remarkably better (especially given that Staal got far less PP time to get those points). Now, I certainly think Richards is a better offensive player than Staal, but he's pumped up his offensive numbers in years after the ones Staal has just gone through (he's still remarkably young for a guy with his resume).... and would expect Staal to produce more points as he begins to enter his actual offensive prime, which he hasn't hit yet. Staal actually came back from a pretty significant injury last year to post the highest PPG of his career, 0.71 PPG.

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07-10-2011, 03:07 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
And you're the only person on this board who still clamours for Hitchcock hockey. But hey, to each their own, right?
I am, where have you seen that BCF16?

Quote:
Fact is, a guy like Couturier very much matches well with Eric Staal. When you look at their games closely (and I suggest going to You Tube to look at Staal and then the QMJHL site to see Couturier), you'll see that they are very similar in stature and style when it comes to the game. While Couturier might not be the true goal scorer that Staal is, their games are very and eerily similar to one another.

I see nothing in Couturier's game that matches Jordan's. When you really think of it, Jordan has proven to be a good third line centerman, but if he's so good defensively, where are the Selke trophies? Yeah, he has a Stanley Cup, but he can think riding on the coat tails of Malkin and Fleury for that.

Seriously though, if you watch Couturier, you'll see that he's an Eric Staal clone. And I think 35 to 40 goals and 80 to 85 points is not out of character at all with regards to his future performance. And yeah, if he becomes a 20 goal, 55 point guy but is Primeau-like in terms of checking ability, then it is a disappointment because he has the tools to do more. And I'd blame the franchise for limiting Couturier to that kind of role.
You're missing the central point. There's no doubt Couturier has a high ceiling. Failure to reach that high ceiling should not manifest in labeling him a disappointment, however. 25-35-60 are VERY good prime year averages for a NHL player.... if you can do that for a career, you can threaten 1,000 points in the NHL.

Most players, even very good ones, will fall far short of that threshold... If Couturier turns into that type of player, that's a triple. Anything beyond that is a HR of a pick.

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07-10-2011, 03:09 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Jordan Staal just finished his 22 y.o season. When Richards was his age he had one 20 goal season on his resume (28). He had amassed 141 pts in 211 games, or 0.67 PPG. Certainly better, but nothing remarkably better (especially given that Staal got far less PP time to get those points). Now, I certainly think Richards is a better offensive player than Staal, but he's pumped up his offensive numbers in years after the ones Staal has just gone through (he's still remarkably young for a guy with his resume).... and would expect Staal to produce more points as he begins to enter his actual offensive prime, which he hasn't hit yet. Staal actually came back from a pretty significant injury last year to post the highest PPG of his career, 0.71 PPG.
The statistical analysis does not matter.

You're entire argument is based on the premise that Jordan Staal becomes better than he is, therefore becomes on the level of the other players mentioned. (Unless of course you're operating under the ridiculous theory that Jordan Staal is somehow as good as Mike Richards, Eric Staal, and Rod Brind'Amour.)

My entire premise is based on the idea that I would be disappointed if Couturier didn't become as good as the other players mentioned and therefore better than I feel Jordan Staal currently is (and better than I think Jordan Staal will be).



So basically, I'm right either way you argue this.

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07-10-2011, 03:10 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How old was I when that happened? Definitely not old enough to watch hockey.
What, did you fail to learn how to read? Do research? Ya know, actually look **** up.

Quote:
You remember when you thought save percentage and goals-against-average were goaltending stats only, ones that were not impacted by other players?
When have I ever stated that GAA was a goaltender stat only? Not once. See, here we are, Chris. You get pissy and you start making **** up because that's all you really have to fall back on. GAA is completely a team stat.

Thanks for proving once again why you're a bartender and not a writer.

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I'm done with this conversation.
Lata.

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07-10-2011, 03:11 PM
  #36
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I know two HFboard members who are on the rag right now

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07-10-2011, 03:15 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The statistical analysis does not matter.

You're entire argument is based on the premise that Jordan Staal becomes better than he is, therefore becomes on the level of the other players mentioned.

My entire premise is based on the idea that I would be disappointed if Couturier didn't become as good as the other players mentioned and therefore better than I feel Jordan Staal currently is (and I feel better than Jordan Staal will be).



So basically, I'm right either way you argue this.
Actually, no, if Jordan Staal plugs along for the next 15 years putting up 20+ goals and 40+ points while providing his stellar defense he's going to have had an absolutely fan-*ing-tastic career. Do I think he's going to have better years than that? Yes.

Lets assume Jordan Staal has a 20 year career in the NHL... and plays roughly 1450 NHL games. His current rates of production (with no prime year uptick, which even you should admit are likely -- even I don't think you're that dumb) would make his end of career totals: 377-406-783. This ignores that his assist rate has gone up every single year he has played thus far.

If he ends up at an average close to what he did last year, his end of career totals would be: 377-653-1030.

That's with a modest 0.26/0.45 G/APG pace. You would be disappointed if that was Couturier career.

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07-10-2011, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Actually, no, if Jordan Staal plugs along for the next 15 years putting up 20+ goals and 40+ points while providing his stellar defense he's going to have had an absolutely fan-*ing-tastic career. Do I think he's going to have better years than that? Yes.

Lets assume Jordan Staal has a 20 year career in the NHL... and plays roughly 1450 NHL games. His current rates of production (with no prime year uptick, which even you should admit are likely -- even I don't think you're that dumb) would make his end of career totals: 377-406-783. This ignores that his assist rate has gone up every single year he has played thus far.

If he ends up at an average close to what he did last year, his end of career totals would be: 377-653-1030.

That's with a modest 0.26/0.45 G/APG pace. You would be disappointed if that was Couturier career.
What?

We're just going to assume now that players just play until they're 38-40? At the same level as well?

Mark Recchi must've started a freaking revolution. This is the first time I've heard of it though.

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07-10-2011, 03:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
What?

We're just going to assume now that players just play until they're 38-40? At the same level as well?

Mark Recchi must've started a freaking revolution. This is the first time I've heard of it though.
Assume that established guys play until they're 38? Isn't that uncommon if they avoid serious injury... also quite likely to become more common in the future. However, if we're prognosticating lets just take the variable of injury out of the mix, because I'm assuming you're not going to blast a draft pick for having a serious injury... as that doesn't have much to do with their manifested talent at the NHL level.

That being said, who is suggesting that they will play at the same level... do you think Recchi is at the same level as he was in his prime? We're talking averages here, Chris. It isn't hard stuff.

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07-10-2011, 03:29 PM
  #40
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I know two HFboard members who are on the rag right now
lol.......that was good

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07-10-2011, 03:32 PM
  #41
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if Jordan Staal wasnt a Penguin then people on this very board would take that comparison.

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07-10-2011, 03:36 PM
  #42
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if Jordan Staal wasnt a Penguin then people on this very board would take that comparison.
That, and (shockingly, given the Richards love) there is very little appreciation for defensive play... And the fact that it is hard to put up high totals while playing good D.

If we had Staal on our third line it transforms are current roster immensely.

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07-10-2011, 03:41 PM
  #43
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Do you guys really not know why he is pegged as J.Stall? Well when asked; "What NHL player would you say you're most like?" Couturier answers........ "Jordan Stall".

Maybe you guys should go up to him and tell him he doesn't know who he is.

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/flyers
Video: Sean Couturier working hard at camp - 7/6

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07-10-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Do you guys really not know why he is pegged as J.Stall? Well when asked; "What NHL player would you say you're most like?" Couturier answers........ "Jordan Stall".

Maybe you guys should go up to him and tell him he doesn't know who he is.

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/flyers
Video: Sean Couturier working hard at camp - 7/6
Mathers claims he's the next Milan Lucic. It doesn't mean he is.



And, back on point, Jordan Staal is great, but I want to see more offensive output from someone who has a much higher offensive potential.

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07-10-2011, 03:45 PM
  #45
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What a ***** fest. I'm with shafer on this one. 60 point seasons are going to be classed as a dissapointment for a guy that was touted to go 2nd overall.

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07-10-2011, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
if Jordan Staal wasnt a Penguin then people on this very board would take that comparison.
Thats not true, if whole thread happened last year and instead of compared to Ryan Kesler who had a 23/36 59 pt season I wouldve said the same thing. I think a top 10 draft pick who was rumored to go 1st or 2nd overall early on, only being used as a 3rd line shut down center is a disappointment.

Now if he was compared to Kesler from this season I would be much more excited. 25/50 75 pt season with a selke sounds would be awesome!

Jordan Staal is just a very poor mans Ryan Kesler at this point.

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07-10-2011, 04:09 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Mathers claims he's the next Milan Lucic. It doesn't mean he is.



And, back on point, Jordan Staal is great, but I want to see more offensive output from someone who has a much higher offensive potential.
So are you saying Couts doesn't know who he most resembles or tries to emulate? You asked why people put J.Stall on that list. Well it is because Couts himself puts it on that list, plain and simple.

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07-10-2011, 04:12 PM
  #48
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I agree with the poster who said if couturier posts similar numbers to staal it will be a dissapointment. This kid has the size, skill, and potential to be a point per game player, with great defensive instincts on top of that. He should have been a top 3 pick. This is not a knock on J. Staal because he is a very good player, but couturier has the tools to become a great player. I would not be surprised if he is in the lineup come november with schenn moving to the wing.

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07-10-2011, 04:26 PM
  #49
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Here are the 8th overall picks from 2001-2007.
Pascal Leclaire
Pierre Marc Bouchard
Braydon Coburn
Alexandre Picard
Devin Setoguchi
Peter Mueller
Zach Hamill

It's too early to judge the picks from 08 and 09 (Boedker, Glennie), but they seem like disappointments.

Considering what is typically had with the 8th pick I'd be satisfied if we ended up with a Jordan Staal. Couturier's upside is certainly higher, but a Staal type would certainly make it a successful pick. Remember Staal was taken 2nd. A Jordan Staal at #8 seems like good value to me.

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07-10-2011, 04:28 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're missing the central point. There's no doubt Couturier has a high ceiling. Failure to reach that high ceiling should not manifest in labeling him a disappointment, however. 25-35-60 are VERY good prime year averages for a NHL player.... if you can do that for a career, you can threaten 1,000 points in the NHL.

Most players, even very good ones, will fall far short of that threshold... If Couturier turns into that type of player, that's a triple. Anything beyond that is a HR of a pick.
Explain why we should be happy if Couturier falls "far short" of his potential? The point is that most of us are expecting big things out of this guy, and for good reason:

Quote:
Sean Couturier has everything a team could ask for in a center. He’s 6’4″ 191 lbs. He has great hands and vision and plays a very solid two-way game. He’s also not afraid to use his size. In 2009-2010 he won the Jean Beliveau Trophy as the QMJHL’s leading scorer and in 2010-2011 he won the Michel Briere trophy as the league’s most-valuable player. It’s no surprise that Couturier was named MVP. He plays a ton of minutes for the Drummondville Voltigeurs. He kills penalties,plays the power play and takes all of the important faceoffs. Some nights it seems like he plays over 40 minutes because he’s out there so much and when he’s out there he makes everyone notice.

Like most prospects, Sean will need to work on his speed to bring his game to the NHL but he should develop into a solid NHL center. He has the potential to be a number 1 center who can play a very solid two way game. The type of center you throw out against the opponents number one line but the same center you send on the ice when down by a goal late in the game. He should be a very good low risk pick. At worst you get a solid 3rd line center but a lot more will be expected from him as he will be drafted very high.
-The Scouting Report


Quote:
Season Awards by season
2008-2009 QMJHL Champion
2009-2010 QMJHL Best Plus/Minus (+62)
QMJHL Most Points "Jean Beliveau Trophy" (96)
QMJHL Second All-Star Team
2010-2011 QMJHL Best Professional Prospect "Mike Bossy Trophy"
QMJHL First All-Star Team
QMJHL Most Valuable Player "Michel Brière Trophy"
U20 WJC Silver Medal
Awards by league
- QMJHL Best Plus/Minus 09/10
- QMJHL Best Professional Prospect "Mike Bossy Trophy" 10/11
- QMJHL Champion 08/09
- QMJHL First All-Star Team 10/11
- QMJHL Most Points "Jean Beliveau Trophy" 09/10
- QMJHL Most Valuable Player "Michel Brière Trophy" 10/11
- QMJHL Second All-Star Team 09/10
- U20 WJC Silver Medal 10/11
-Elite Prospects


He could end up being a disappointment while still being a good player because of the ceiling he has. However, I won't be happy with a simply "good" Couturier in his prime.

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