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Are we currently, a BETTER PLAYOFF TEAM ??

View Poll Results: Is this a better playoff team ??
YES 39 27.27%
NO 57 39.86%
Not quite sure yet, need to see a few regular season games before I can decide 47 32.87%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-10-2011, 08:00 AM
  #176
CharlieGirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0range and Black View Post
Let me start out by saying I like both Richards (top 10 all time favorite Flyer) and Carter (top 30). I loved their Propp - Poulin imitation in 08-09 and thought they would be superstars.

Both trades were well done. You don't lock in two players to NMCs with 5+ million long term contracts when they consistently don't show in the playoffs (availability is an ability) Add in the party/leadership stuff and these trades returned impressive value.

Richards played 63 playoff games and scored 1 game winner.
Carter played 47 and scored 2 game winners (sniper?)
You are familiar with Alexander Semin's playoff label?
He has 3 GWGs in 37 playoff games?

The Flyers lose as many playoff GWGs with Zherdev and Carcillo.

Richards/Carter (-7 and -6) did not hold Toews (-5) to anything. Lines 1 vs 1 rarely played against each other. The rest of the team scored 20 goals in that series. Our "2 best players" scored 2 times. If they scored 5 times, there would have been a parade.
Proof that you can make stats say anything, when looking at them in a vacuum.

Ben Eager has 2 gamewinning goals in playoffs. Does this make him a better player than Richards?

Richards has 1 gamewinner. This is correct. It's unfortunate that the league doesn't track assists on gamewinners. I can think of a few off the top of my head. How many of his goals were either the first goal (getting the first goal is a huge advantage)? I can also think of a couple without looking it up.

Richards' line was out against Toews a great deal, so discounting that part of the game when Toews' line ripped the rest of Chicago's opponents a new ******* is interesting.

You can put the Stanley Cup loss on Richards and Carter if you like. The team scored enough goals to win and held Chicago's big guns to a minimum. Unfortunately for the Flyers, Leighton sucked more than Niemi did. A half decent goalie between the pipes and there is a parade.

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07-10-2011, 08:16 AM
  #177
Jtown
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Proof that you can make stats say anything, when looking at them in a vacuum.

Ben Eager has 2 gamewinning goals in playoffs. Does this make him a better player than Richards?

Richards has 1 gamewinner. This is correct. It's unfortunate that the league doesn't track assists on gamewinners. I can think of a few off the top of my head. How many of his goals were either the first goal (getting the first goal is a huge advantage)? I can also think of a couple without looking it up.

Richards' line was out against Toews a great deal, so discounting that part of the game when Toews' line ripped the rest of Chicago's opponents a new ******* is interesting.

You can put the Stanley Cup loss on Richards and Carter if you like. The team scored enough goals to win and held Chicago's big guns to a minimum. Unfortunately for the Flyers, Leighton sucked more than Niemi did. A half decent goalie between the pipes and there is a parade.

Richards line shut down Toews line, and after game 4 they split Kane and toews and thats when Chicago had all of there success.

And as awesome as Richards was at shutting down Toews, he had to go up against Toews and Hossa, who were all over him in the playoffs. I can understand why he didnt put up big numbers against Blackhawks. Hossa and Toews are elite 2 way forwards. So basically Chicago put out there best 2 way line against our best 2 way line, instead of the Briere line. If they had gone up against the Briere line, richie, carter and , gags wouldve put up big numbers. Its was a pick your poison situation, and they decided to let briere's line kill them.

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07-10-2011, 08:23 AM
  #178
CharlieGirl
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Hossa and Toews are elite 2 way forwards. So basically Chicago put out there best 2 way line against our best 2 way line, instead of the Briere line. If they had gone up against the Briere line, richie, carter and , gags wouldve put up big numbers. Its was a pick your poison situation, and they decided to let briere's line kill them.
Now you're just talking silliness. If Chicago had put their best up against the Briere line, they would have swept the Flyers, apparently.

(yes, I'm being facetious).

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07-10-2011, 08:52 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by 0range and Black View Post
Let me start out by saying I like both Richards (top 10 all time favorite Flyer) and Carter (top 30). I loved their Propp - Poulin imitation in 08-09 and thought they would be superstars.

Both trades were well done. You don't lock in two players to NMCs with 5+ million long term contracts when they consistently don't show in the playoffs (availability is an ability) Add in the party/leadership stuff and these trades returned impressive value.

Richards played 63 playoff games and scored 1 game winner.
Carter played 47 and scored 2 game winners (sniper?)
You are familiar with Alexander Semin's playoff label?
He has 3 GWGs in 37 playoff games?

The Flyers lose as many playoff GWGs with Zherdev and Carcillo.

Richards/Carter (-7 and -6) did not hold Toews (-5) to anything. Lines 1 vs 1 rarely played against each other. The rest of the team scored 20 goals in that series. Our "2 best players" scored 2 times. If they scored 5 times, there would have been a parade.
Never, ever use GWGs as if they are a real stat with any analytical merit.

It is, quite literally, the dumbest stat in sports.

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07-10-2011, 09:13 AM
  #180
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So now 23 points in 23 games on the way to game 6 of the SCF is not showing up in the playoffs because the GWG stat means everything.

Some other career playoff GWG stats for guys who obviously don't show up:
Briere 12 (in 97 games)
Zetterberg 7 (in 104 games)
Datsyuk 5 (in 121 games)
Kane 1 (obviously a huge one)
Gagne 7
Toews 5
Giroux 2
Cammalleri 3
Crosby 5
Kreji 5

The GWG stat is random. Not every GWG is scored in a tied game.

BTW in just the 2009-2010 POs of Richards' 7 goals 3 were when the game was tied and 2 were scored to tie the game. Not all that different From Briere who had 12 goals of which he scored 6 to take the lead, and 4 to tie the game. That is clutch. GWG is not necessarily clutch as the GWG can often be the goal scored to take a 4-1 lead.

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07-10-2011, 11:59 AM
  #181
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I can't believe that people still trumpet the "Our best line didn't show up against Chicago" garbage. Newsflash: Neither did theirs. Both lines got shut down.

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07-10-2011, 12:10 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I can't believe that people still trumpet the "Our best line didn't show up against Chicago" garbage. Newsflash: Neither did theirs. Both lines got shut down.
By each other.

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07-10-2011, 03:36 PM
  #183
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Watch the games again. Richards and Carter did not play against Toews for the majority of the series. It is a complete impossibility that 1 player can be -7 and the guy on the other side is -5 if they always played against each other. If Richards was on the ice for Chicago's shorthanded goal then you have a difference of 11 goals scored. Both team's lines 2 and 3 dominated (often against the 1st lines)

I did not use GWG in a vacuum. Points per game and plus minus are also factors. You don't replace their 59 regular season goals come playoff time, you replace their 2 playoff goals and score more than that.

Briere, Giroux and Jagr are near 1 ppg playoff performers.
JVR will get more ice time and could be expected to take the next step. Am I crazy to think that a better goalie makes up for losing a pair of goals in 17 games played?

To be absolutely clear, Richards dominated vs. NJ, he rewrote the Boston series by crunching Krejci (he also had the GWA in game 7 )and he played well vs. Montreal. He was plain bad in the finals and any other analysis is incorrect.

I can't recall if he made the game 6 pass to set up Carter in front near the end of regulation when Carter pushed the puck into Niemi's pads instead of lifting it into the wide open top half of the net.

The fact is that Carter and Richards were not consistent playoff stars and replacing their productivity is not impossible.

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07-10-2011, 03:37 PM
  #184
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Richards and Toews were matching up the entire series. You need to go watch that series again.

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07-10-2011, 05:35 PM
  #185
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For what it's worth, according to behindthenet.ca Richards was lined-up against the Bolland line and Keith/Seabrook most of the time (Keith #5, Bolland#6, Versteeg #7, Seabrook#8): http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...44+45+46+47+48

And Toews had Pronger/Carle and HBL (The ****? That didn't turn out well): http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...44+45+46+47+48

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07-10-2011, 08:05 PM
  #186
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For what it's worth, according to behindthenet.ca Richards was lined-up against the Bolland line and Keith/Seabrook most of the time (Keith #5, Bolland#6, Versteeg #7, Seabrook#8): http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...44+45+46+47+48

And Toews had Pronger/Carle and HBL (The ****? That didn't turn out well): http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...44+45+46+47+48
Your picking up the fact that the Hawks began to runaway from the matchup. Toews was getting nothing done against him -- and Pronger.

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07-10-2011, 09:06 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by 0range and Black View Post

To be absolutely clear, Richards dominated vs. NJ, he rewrote the Boston series by crunching Krejci (he also had the GWA in game 7 )and he played well vs. Montreal. He was plain bad in the finals and any other analysis is incorrect.

The fact is that Carter and Richards were not consistent playoff stars and replacing their productivity is not impossible.
Richards dominated the first three series of that playoffs and was one of the front runners for the Conn Smythe going into the finals... but you're right, no big deal replacing what he did. He was also pretty inconsistent in 08 when he had 14 points in 17 games and in 09 when he had 5 points in 6 games (you may recall he had shoulder surgeries after both these years). But the Flyers will definitely be able to replace his inconsistent play with sure fire play off performers, like the 40 year old Jagr and Voracek who has been a proven playoff performer in the 4 playoff games he has played in his career

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07-10-2011, 09:16 PM
  #188
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The revisionist history with Carter and Richards is really getting ridiculous. Believe it or not, it is possible to support the team's decision to trade them and at the same time acknowledge both of their contributions to the team of their careers.

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07-11-2011, 07:06 PM
  #189
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My view of this team is that I think that they will be a fun team to watch play. I believe they will be a playoff team. And there is the old adage that once you get in anything can happen. But I also believe that there will be growing pains with this team, and it's youth. There are definite weaknesses on this team. And I can't see how it could possibly be a better playoff team now than it could of been with Carter and Richards and the addition of Bryzgalov. I also believe that if players such as Schen and Couturiere pan out and develop as thought, they could be a better team down the road.

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07-11-2011, 08:00 PM
  #190
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Anyone else think the Atlantic Division is going to be the "most difficult" in all of hockey next season. I really feel like it will be a three horse race between Flyers, Penguins, Rangers with the Devils chomping at our heels the entire time. At the very least I expect us to be one of those four to make it.

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07-11-2011, 08:03 PM
  #191
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Never, ever use GWGs as if they are a real stat with any analytical merit.

It is, quite literally, the dumbest stat in sports.
It really is. Why the fantasy hockey cognoscenti place any value on it baffles me.

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07-11-2011, 08:40 PM
  #192
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Yes, because now we have a top goaltender in the league. Simple as that.

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07-11-2011, 09:18 PM
  #193
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Yes, because now we have a top goaltender in the league. Simple as that.
With our defense and bryz, plus playoff performers in briere, roo, jvr, and pronger we will certainly surprise some of the guys on this board.

Now if we got stamkos...

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07-11-2011, 09:34 PM
  #194
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Yes, because now we have a top goaltender in the league. Simple as that.
Yeah, that worked out for Buffalo, Phoenix and New York in the playoffs.

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