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Old
07-11-2011, 09:40 AM
  #101
Jester
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Wait, are we comparing him to Staal or to a 60 point forward? Staal has never scored 50 points let alone 60.
He's building up to it. Last year he put up 58 point pace when he came back, and his APG has gone up each year of his career.

Remember, he will be 23 next year. He's younger than Giroux.

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07-11-2011, 09:42 AM
  #102
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You can be a fan without being a homer. You can be a fan without sacrificing your ability to say stupid things that aren't based in reality.
You also have the right to your own opinion without it being called stupid. It's incredible how self-riteous people become with the power of anonymity. I find it even more laughable that people with 32,000 posts on a forum call others out over their jobs........

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07-11-2011, 09:43 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
And everything that has been said by Chris has been in the realm of possibility. And what is your definition of homer?
The issue is not that what Chris has said is in the realm of possibility. It's that claiming that Jordan Staal level production would be a disappointment, which is completely divorced from reality.

In fairness to him, he didn't say that Jordan Staal was a disappointment, which you did... Frankly, your claim is even more amazing.

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07-11-2011, 09:44 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's building up to it. Last year he put up 58 point pace when he came back, and his APG has gone up each year of his career.

Remember, he will be 23 next year. He's younger than Giroux.
Once upon a time Lupul put up 67 point pace.

He's also done something J. Staal never did...put up 50 points...and he did it three times.

So what makes you so sure J. Staal is going to break out offensively? Nothing he has ever done at the NHL level leads me to believe he will. Let him prove me wrong.

Besides, once J. Staal becomes (if he ever becomes) that offensive juggernaut with defensive capabilities then I'd be very happy to have Couturier become someone like him.

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07-11-2011, 09:45 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You also have the right to your own opinion without it being called stupid. It's incredible how self-riteous people become with the power of anonymity. I find it even more laughable that people with 32,000 posts on a forum call others out over their jobs........
Ooh, burn.

Of course, I wasn't calling out his job. Was calling out his ability to really provide useful analysis of prospects in upstate NY and further away from DC while working said job.

As ever, reading comprehension is important.

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07-11-2011, 09:47 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which is *ing stupid. Players routinely come nowhere close to their max potential. In fact, it is FAR MORE likely that a drafted prospect will fall well short of their potential. The bar Shafer set is essentially that of an All-Star level player.

Did I say ANYTHING about the trade in this thread?

When you buy a lottery ticket you have the potential to win millions of dollars, are you disappointed if you win $50?
the 8th overall pick isnt a lottery ticket its an ipo. and we remortgaged the house to invest in it.

and as someone whos familiar with academia you should know better then to call chris out like that. theres no such thing as actual credibility simply people who make enough money doing what they do to act pretentiously about it.

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07-11-2011, 09:48 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Remember, Staal did not play a single game of Junior at age 18. That is a factor with him. Couturier certainly had a stellar 17 y.o campaign, but Jordan Staal's PPG year isn't shabby, and didn't get the chance most guys get to really show off in the 18 y.o year.

Couturier has a high ceiling, but it's extremely unfair to label him a disappointment if he turns into a guy that will threaten for Selkes in his career while bringing good but not great offense to the table.
Its not shabby but its not 96 points in 68 games. I know it was different leagues, but I believe Couturier lead his league in scoring that year, and I know he has had the best PPG in the QMJHL over the past 2 years.

When I heard his comparison was to Jordan Staal I was excited, but when I saw his offensive numbers I was confused. He seems like his potential is closer to Eric than Jordan. Him turning into Jordan wouldn't be horrible as I think Staal is a good player, but I would be disappointed if that's what he became given his offensive numbers. I don't expect him to be Eric Staal, but I'd be somewhat disappointed if he didn't become a better offensive player than Jordan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's building up to it. Last year he put up 58 point pace when he came back, and his APG has gone up each year of his career.

Remember, he will be 23 next year. He's younger than Giroux.
He paced for 58 points, but he hasn't cracked the 50 point mark yet either.

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07-11-2011, 09:48 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Once upon a time Lupul put up 67 point pace.

He's also done something J. Staal never did...put up 50 points...and he did it twice.
And Lupul is a very good offensive player in the NHL outside of injury problems. Do you think he is better than Staal? Or do we get to talk about other facets of the game?

If Couturier really is going to translate an excellent two-way game to the NHL that is going to impact his point production.

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07-11-2011, 09:50 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Its not shabby but its not 96 points in 68 games. I know it was different leagues, but I believe Couturier lead his league in scoring that year, and I know he has had the best PPG in the QMJHL over the past 2 years.

When I heard his comparison was to Jordan Staal I was excited, but when I saw his offensive numbers I was confused. He seems like his potential is closer to Eric than Jordan. Him turning into Jordan wouldn't be horrible as I think Staal is a good player, but I would be disappointed if that's what he became given his offensive numbers. I don't expect him to be Eric Staal, but I'd be somewhat disappointed if he didn't become a better offensive player than Jordan. Like I said he has yet to crack the 50 point mark.
Neither had Giroux when he was Jordan Staal's age.

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07-11-2011, 09:52 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The issue is not that what Chris has said is in the realm of possibility. It's that claiming that Jordan Staal level production would be a disappointment, which is completely divorced from reality.

In fairness to him, he didn't say that Jordan Staal was a disappointment, which you did... Frankly, your claim is even more amazing.
You're right, i think Staal has been a disappointment up to this point and i would be correct in that assessment.

Considering He was drafted over players like Toews, and Backstrom who have done much better than Staal.

Now he is by no means a bad player or a bust, and he still has time to develop, but so far he has been a disappointment for what was expected out of him.

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07-11-2011, 09:53 AM
  #111
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Lupul is a notoriously streaky player. He had a 20-goal season here, but like half of those were over the span of like 10 days.

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07-11-2011, 09:54 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And Lupul is a very good offensive player in the NHL outside of injury problems. Do you think he is better than Staal? Or do we get to talk about other facets of the game?
No he's not better than Staal, and the other facets of the game are not the point.

If Lupul was as good as Staal defensively, I'd take him over Staal seeing as how Lupul is currently the stronger offensive player.

Could that change? We'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If Couturier really is going to translate an excellent two-way game to the NHL that is going to impact his point production.
No one ever said there wouldn't be. No one ever said he would be as good as Staal defensively either. I don't think we should take that assumption so lightly either.

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07-11-2011, 09:55 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Neither had Giroux when he was Jordan Staal's age.
This will also be his 6th year in the league. And I didn't call Giroux a 60 point forward before he got there. I said he had the potential. So if you want to say Staal still has the potential that's fine. However, I'm comparing Couturier to what Staal has done thus far in his career, not what he may do in the future.

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07-11-2011, 09:56 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
You're right, i think Staal has been a disappointment up to this point and i would be correct in that assessment.

Considering He was drafted over players like Toews, and Backstrom who have done much better than Staal.

Now he is by no means a bad player or a bust, and he still has time to develop, but so far he has been a disappointment for what was expected out of him.
You realize it was the accepted view that he wasn't going to be an offensive star necessarily and was valued for his size and two-way play. In his rookie year he scored more goals than he ever had in junior.

At age 22, Jordan Staal has exceeded expectations. Toews becoming the player he is has nothing to do with the expectations of Staal when he was drafted.

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07-11-2011, 09:58 AM
  #115
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I love how Jester actually gets angry when people say things that he disagrees with...

Who are you to tell someone how disappointed they should be?

If Crosby became a 80 point center, I'm sure a lot of people would have been disappointed as well. That doesnt mean he would have been a bad player, just that he never lived up to his potential, and thus disappointed people.

The point is that with Couturier having so much natural talent and so much raw potential, most people are hoping (not even expecting) to have a PPG player on our hands. It would be a let down if he didnt reach that potential.

That does NOT mean we will hate or resent Couturier for being a 60 point center. It just means he is good enough to be better than that.

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07-11-2011, 09:59 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Neither had Giroux when he was Jordan Staal's age.
Giroux was also picked in the 20's. He wasn't the 2nd pick in the draft, who had a brother who had established himself as one of the best centers in the game, who everyone was comparing him to.

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07-11-2011, 10:00 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
This will also be his 6th year in the league. And I didn't call Giroux a 60 point forward before he got there. I said he had the potential. So if you want to say Staal still has the potential that's fine. However, I'm comparing Couturier to what Staal has done thus far in his career, not what he may do in the future.
So you are saying that if Couturier has three 20+ goal seasons and A Selke nomination by age 22 that it would be acceptable to be disappointed by that?

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07-11-2011, 10:01 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I love how Jester actually gets angry when people say things that he disagrees with...

Who are you to tell someone how disappointed they should be?

If Crosby became a 80 point center, I'm sure a lot of people would have been disappointed as well. That doesnt mean he would have been a bad player, just that he never lived up to his potential, and thus disappointed people.

The point is that with Couturier having so much natural talent and so much raw potential, most people are hoping (not even expecting) to have a PPG player on our hands. It would be a let down if he didnt reach that potential.

That does NOT mean we will hate or resent Couturier for being a 60 point center. It just means he is good enough to be better than that.
Yeah, I don't really get angry about a message board, but dumb is dumb.

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07-11-2011, 10:03 AM
  #119
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Giroux was also picked in the 20's. He wasn't the 2nd pick in the draft, who had a brother who had established himself as one of the best centers in the game, who everyone was comparing him to.
Do you really think that matters in the slightest in evaluating a player? Like, at all.

Pens made a fantastic pick in getting Staal given who they had on their team already.

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07-11-2011, 10:06 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So you are saying that if Couturier has three 20+ goal seasons and A Selke nomination by age 22 that it would be acceptable to be disappointed by that?
By age 22, or by his 4th or 5th year in the league? Like I said earlier, if he didn't break 50 points I would be somewhat disappointed.

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07-11-2011, 10:07 AM
  #121
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Yeah, I don't really get angry about a message board, but dumb is dumb.
You can say you're not angry all you want, but you are clearly annoyed and upset by the things people are saying. Get over yourself, and realize that you have literally no ability to tell someone what should or shouldnt disappoint them. THAT is the only thing dumb here.

Disappointment is relative. It's not something that's concrete for you to determine.

If I hope Couturier becomes a 120 point player, than he would be a disappointment if he only became an 80 point player. It may be stupid to hope for so much, but that's not for you to determine.

It's also not unreasonable to say that Jordan Staal would be a let down. Some people dont think Staal is very good. At all.

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07-11-2011, 10:10 AM
  #122
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He's building up to it. Last year he put up 58 point pace when he came back, and his APG has gone up each year of his career.

Remember, he will be 23 next year. He's younger than Giroux.
I will wait another year before I pass judgment on Staals offensive capabilities. His numbers last year look better than previous years, but he was playing 2 more minutes a game (1 minute more on the PP) because Crosby and Malkin were out.

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07-11-2011, 10:11 AM
  #123
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Do you really think that matters in the slightest in evaluating a player? Like, at all.

Pens made a fantastic pick in getting Staal given who they had on their team already.
It comes down to expectations.

Players drafted in the top 10 have greater expectations of them. Its natural.

For instance, david legwand. For what he does is a great player, but has been looked upon with great dissappointment simply because he was drafted 2nd. Same with Mike ricci, all anyone ever talks about is how they could have gotten jagr.

Players drafted higher have the highest expectations , and to this point he has not come close to those expectations.

And it could be argued they would have been better served draft kessel.

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07-11-2011, 10:12 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
By age 22, or by his 4th or 5th year in the league? Like I said earlier, if he didn't break 50 points I would be somewhat disappointed.
Age is the more important number (for a variety of reasons).

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07-11-2011, 10:15 AM
  #125
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Age is the more important number (for a variety of reasons).
Games are the more important factor ( for a variety of reasons)

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