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Old
07-11-2011, 12:26 PM
  #51
Ollie Williams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
You guys must stop with Spacek 7th D. You didn't learn anything from JM yet? If Spacek at 3.8M is healthy and still with the habs next season, he will play. And he will probably play a little less than 20 min per game.

Same thing with Gomez. Even if he keeps sucking big time, he'll play as much as he did last year.
I agree.

The defensive pairings will be something like this:

Markov - Subban
Spacek - Yemelin
Gill - Gorges
Weber

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Old
07-11-2011, 12:33 PM
  #52
Strik_IX
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
If Chris Drury is somewhat healthy and willing to take a big paycut, then he could probably solve a lot of our problems. Drury is after all good at faceoffs, and can play wing.
Pretty sure Drury would take an enormous pay cut given the fact that the Rangers pretty much gave him a nice big check to get rid of him.

Halpern was our face-off specialist, if we could have a replacement in Drury I would be more than happy.

As far as adding D, I am of the opinion that we should sign or trade for a depth D, we have 6 defensemen that we know can compete in the NHL (yes even Spacek...), the only question mark would be Emelin and as Pierre Jr. stated, it would be a big failure if management lost him to the KHL with the contract they signed.

So I say give him a shot and see how well we do, I'd take Mara for another year as a depth D, he's familiar with the team and JMs system and doesn't seem like the kind of guy who *****es when given a minor role on a team.

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Old
07-11-2011, 12:35 PM
  #53
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
What I'm doing is relying on the Habs pro scouting. By signing him to the kind of deal they did (No AHL) , they must truly believe that he's NHL ready. More so, clearly, than they did with Diaz. So imo, it would be a complete failure in their scouting if he ends up going back to Russia this Fall. They didn't just sign him on a whim after all.
Emelin has a 2-way deal with an AHL salary, as does Diaz. Emelin's for the max from his draft year, Diaz for an amount comparable to the max ELC from last year's draft.

It's not a scouting failure to want to try either of them out. I could think Emelin is 50/50 (or worse) to make it, but I'd still sign him to that contract, because there's really no risk to it. Get him over and find out. Get them in the system. If they play in the AHL or go back to Europe, who cares, it doesn't reflect a failure of scouting in any way. They may not have proven themselves to be capable of playing in the NHL, they may ultimately not be able to take that step, but they *have* shown that they're worth a try. That's all those contracts say.

Which incidentally doesn't mean that the Habs pro scouts *aren't* convinced that Emelin can start in the NHL. Maybe they think he can, maybe they don't, maybe they are of split opinions, who knows. The point is we don't know. And aren't really qualified to offer our own opinions as meaning much. So in the absence of any tangible proof either way, I'd err on the side of adding an extra defenseman.

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So i think that if they get another D-man this off-season, it will be a 7-8th d-man type, ala Alexandre Picard. Scott Hannan kind of makes no sense right now--though a player of his ilk makes perfect sense at the trade deadline, when maybe we have injuries or a guy like Yemelin has maybe severely underperformed.
Which is what got us into "trouble" last year, trading off draft picks to get Mara and Sopel. Better to get a known NHL commodity now, rather than wait and have to pay later.

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John Madden's 51% is not bad, but not a huge improvement over Desharnais' 49.7%.
I don't know the situationals there, but I'd be willing to guess that Desharnais got more "soft" opportunities on draws, whereas with Madden's reputation he might have had a lot more "tough" draws in his numbers. So the stats probably don't tell the whole story.

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Old
07-11-2011, 12:48 PM
  #54
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Our defense scares me. We're basically putting all our eggs in the Yemelin-Spacek basket. Scary.

Kovalev, Bernier - NO. Floaters.

Madden at 1 mil woudl be nice, but I highly doubt he'd do that.

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07-11-2011, 12:54 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Emelin has a 2-way deal with an AHL salary, as does Diaz. Emelin's for the max from his draft year, Diaz for an amount comparable to the max ELC from last year's draft.

It's not a scouting failure to want to try either of them out. I could think Emelin is 50/50 (or worse) to make it, but I'd still sign him to that contract, because there's really no risk to it. Get him over and find out. Get them in the system. If they play in the AHL or go back to Europe, who cares, it doesn't reflect a failure of scouting in any way. They may not have proven themselves to be capable of playing in the NHL, they may ultimately not be able to take that step, but they *have* shown that they're worth a try. That's all those contracts say.

Which incidentally doesn't mean that the Habs pro scouts *aren't* convinced that Emelin can start in the NHL. Maybe they think he can, maybe they don't, maybe they are of split opinions, who knows. The point is we don't know. And aren't really qualified to offer our own opinions as meaning much. So in the absence of any tangible proof either way, I'd err on the side of adding an extra defenseman.


Which is what got us into "trouble" last year, trading off draft picks to get Mara and Sopel. Better to get a known NHL commodity now, rather than wait and have to pay later.


I don't know the situationals there, but I'd be willing to guess that Desharnais got more "soft" opportunities on draws, whereas with Madden's reputation he might have had a lot more "tough" draws in his numbers. So the stats probably don't tell the whole story.
All good points. I think where I'm coming from is that I just really want Yemelin to work here, and I have a feeling that if we get a guy like Hannan right away, Yemelin will have to prove right off that bat that he's better than him, Weber and Spacek, straight out of camp. If you were Yemelin, and you had a decent camp but still got sent down, would you really want to come back one day? If it were up to me, I would give Yemelin every opportunity to succeed this Fall, and with Martin as coach (not big on young players) having too many veterans fighting for the 6th-7th spot is not putting Yemelin in that position. i can't stress enough how being Russian is way different than being Swiss, when it comes to hockey mentality. So to say that Yemelin and Diaz are pretty much in the same boat is not necessarily true. Yemelin could end up staying in the KHL to later become a serious earner, whereas Diaz has probably topped out at the salary he's currently making in the Swiss league. Which is why Diaz is totally fine with playing in Hamilton, and Yemelin sees no point in it whatsoever. All this to say that i think a little more effort, coddling if you will, is needed in Yemelin's case. If he clearly looks out of shape and unwilling to learn in training camp that's one thing. But if they send him back because there's too many veterans standing in his way, i think it would be a mistake. Good luck getting him to come back...

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Old
07-11-2011, 01:47 PM
  #56
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
All good points. I think where I'm coming from is that I just really want Yemelin to work here, and I have a feeling that if we get a guy like Hannan right away, Yemelin will have to prove right off that bat that he's better than him, Weber and Spacek, straight out of camp. If you were Yemelin, and you had a decent camp but still got sent down, would you really want to come back one day? If it were up to me, I would give Yemelin every opportunity to succeed this Fall, and with Martin as coach (not big on young players) having too many veterans fighting for the 6th-7th spot is not putting Yemelin in that position.
I just want the best Habs team. I don't care a lick if that's with Emelin or Hannan or Spacek or whoever else holding down a regular spot on D. The more candidates to consider, the more depth and insurance options we have, the better I think it will be for the Habs.

"If I was Yemelin"... I'd ask everybody to write my name "Emelin", because that's the way I am conditioned to writing it . Then, I'd want to play for the Montreal Canadiens, so I'd work hard and stick it out. Or is that if Emelin was me? Maybe if I was him I'd be a whole lot more comfortable going home. Anyway, I don't care... players need to make their own way, and there are lots of Jacques Martins around the NHL who will use the veteran option. Generally because the veteran option *is* better. It's job security for the coach. Win-now mentality. I'm ok with "win-now" for the Habs. The team isn't rebuilding. If Emelin is good enough to break into that situation, great. If he's not, he's welcome to go back to the KHL, I don't really care.
Quote:
i can't stress enough how being Russian is way different than being Swiss, when it comes to hockey mentality. So to say that Yemelin and Diaz are pretty much in the same boat is not necessarily true. Yemelin could end up staying in the KHL to later become a serious earner, whereas Diaz has probably topped out at the salary he's currently making in the Swiss league. Which is why Diaz is totally fine with playing in Hamilton, and Yemelin sees no point in it whatsoever. All this to say that i think a little more effort, coddling if you will, is needed in Yemelin's case. If he clearly looks out of shape and unwilling to learn in training camp that's one thing. But if they send him back because there's too many veterans standing in his way, i think it would be a mistake. Good luck getting him to come back...
I'm just saying they have the same contract. Basically. To me, they both enter camp with the same opportunity. Meritocracy all the way. I wouldn't bat an eyelid at assigning either one to Hamilton if their training camp said that's where they belonged. If either one subsequently wanted to go home, so be it. Agreed that the Russian player has a different set of options and likely different priorities, therefore, and that's fine. I wouldn't let that affect me as a GM. It's not like Emelin is Malkin or Ovechkin here. I don't know if the Habs management would have the same attitude as I do or not... probably not, based on the indications so far. But then, they have lots of information I don't have. Lacking that info, I want the team to sign another experienced NHL defenseman. And let the chips fall where they may on the issue of Emelin.

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Old
07-11-2011, 02:10 PM
  #57
crazyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
I agree.

The defensive pairings will be something like this:

Markov - Subban
Spacek - Yemelin
Gill - Gorges
Weber
After next season we are left with:

Markov - Subban
4th D - Yemelin
6th D - Gorges
Weber

Of our defensive prospects none will be NHL ready by that time - not even Tinordi. That means we will have two spots vacant. One spot can be taken by Weber if he pans out thus taking the 7th D spot relegating Gorges to play on the left instead of the right.

One spot left, resign Gill? Could be an option. Pay top dollar on the FA market? If we had to go down that route this year was the year to do it. Next season we need to pay Subban and Price. That will be our main concern.

It is still time to bolster our defence and fill in the void until our prospects are ready. There is still decent value on this years market:

Hannan
Eminger
O'Brien
Sopel
Mara

So I would go more along the lines of adding another body to the D corp:

Markov - Subban
Spacek - Yemelin
Gill - Gorges
Eminger - Weber

Why 8 D-men? Because we want them to play a full 82 games.

Markov is coming back from a serious injury.
Gorges is coming off an injury.
Gill is getting older and we don't want him to tirer out like Hamrlik did in last playoffs.
Subban, even his tank was low come the playoffs.
Yemelin never played so many games in a season.

So sign Eminger or O'Brien to a 2 year deal at about 1.5M per. We have the space, just about 3.2M left.

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Old
07-11-2011, 02:33 PM
  #58
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I'm not doing the cap but;

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Cole
Pacioretty - Gomez - Gionta
Desharnais - Eller - Kostitsyn
White - Drury ($1.75M) - Darche
Moen

Markov - Yemelin/Weber
Hannan ($3.75M) - Subban
Gill - Gorges
Yemelin/Weber

Price
Budaj

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Old
07-11-2011, 02:35 PM
  #59
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Bernier is a third line filler while I wont even comment on Kovalev..

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Old
07-11-2011, 02:44 PM
  #60
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Regarding Yemelin, IIRC, he wanted to be in the NHL if not then be allowed to go back to the KHL. But I don't think playing time/games was part of his request. He said he wanted to be in the NHL because of the high caliber training facilities and staff he would get to work with to improve. I don't think being the #7 would be a problem in the beginning.

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Old
07-11-2011, 02:55 PM
  #61
Vanek20
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Sign Kovalev for cheap...sign Hannan...trade Spacek if we can.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Alexei Kovalev ($2.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m) / Erik Cole ($4.500m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m) / Ryan Johnson ($0.600m) / Travis Moen ($1.500m)
Lars Eller ($1.270m) / Ryan White ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / Josh Gorges ($2.900m)
Scott Hannan ($2.750m) / P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) / Yannick Weber ($0.850m)
Alexei Yemelin ($0.984m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Peter Budaj ($1.150m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,962,176; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $3,337,824

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:05 PM
  #62
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Which is what got us into "trouble" last year, trading off draft picks to get Mara and Sopel. Better to get a known NHL commodity now, rather than wait and have to pay later.
Right, and if Gauthier tried to sign Hammer, my guess is he's still looking for more than just a 7th-8th D a la Picard.
Personally, I'm hoping for O'Brien. He would be cheaper than Hannan, is a little bit bigger and more aggressive. I think that is one hole we need to fill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't know the situationals there, but I'd be willing to guess that Desharnais got more "soft" opportunities on draws, whereas with Madden's reputation he might have had a lot more "tough" draws in his numbers. So the stats probably don't tell the whole story.
Pretty much. He also took more than double the amount DD did. I would welcome Madden as the 3rd liner. I honestly haven't followed him last year though, so I have no idea how his season went.
If healthy, I'd go for Drury. He's a righthanded center and we don't have one.
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
You guys must stop with Spacek 7th D. You didn't learn anything from JM yet? If Spacek at 3.8M is healthy and still with the habs next season, he will play. And he will probably play a little less than 20 min per game.

Same thing with Gomez. Even if he keeps sucking big time, he'll play as much as he did last year.
Spacek is a good Dman. He gets a lot of unwarranted flack around here. Ya, he's not worth 3.8M, but he's not a 7th D either.
Put him on his natural side, and he'll be good. I don't think you should expect him to play around 20min if Markov-Gorges and PK are all here.
In 2011 alone, he only played in 8games out of 20 where he was used for more than 19min. Two of them were in the 21min range, two others in the 20min one, and the four others in the 19min one.
If Markov goes down, then yea, he'll likely be over used again, but at least he should be on his natural side this time around.
He's definitely better than what people give him credit for. I expecting him to play around 17-18min. That would be ideal imo.

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:10 PM
  #63
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u guys talkin bout steve bernier?lmao.he s horrible.come on.lets be realistic here.i d rather have pouliot .

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07-11-2011, 03:11 PM
  #64
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Sign Winchester and O'Brien. Get rid of Spacek any way possible.

Other forward options: Chris Clark, Ethan Moreau, Madden.

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07-11-2011, 03:12 PM
  #65
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u guys talkin bout steve bernier?lmao.he s horrible.come on.lets be realistic here.i d rather have pouliot .
Bernier is down right awful. He has played himself out of the NHL. Say hello to Europe or the AHL

P.S

Please no more Kovalev in mock line ups. He may be even worse than Bernier

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:19 PM
  #66
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Here are the final moves, and the next I would do:
  1. Sign Gorges.
  2. Keep the team as it is to give a chance at camp to some youngsters (Palushaj, Conboy, Carle, etc.)
  3. After camp, start the season with your veterans (including Spacek) and the 1 or 2 more deserving youngsters to fill the holes.
  4. Take one month into the season to evaluate: a) which youngsters is really ready to contribute - b) which veterans could be replaced without breaking the chemistry - c) What are the more glaring holes.
  5. Make moves according to previous point.
  6. Start negociation for "long term contract" for Subban
  7. Start negociation for "medium term contract" with Price
  8. Start inquiring about other teams plans for trade deadline.

During all of the above: listen to other teams' offers.

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:21 PM
  #67
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i like our team .we just need to stay healthy .

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:30 PM
  #68
Zorba
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Here are the final moves, and the next I would do:
  1. Sign Gorges.
  2. Keep the team as it is to give a chance at camp to some youngsters (Palushaj, Conboy, Carle, etc.)
  3. After camp, start the season with your veterans (including Spacek) and the 1 or 2 more deserving youngsters to fill the holes.
  4. Take one month into the season to evaluate: a) which youngsters is really ready to contribute - b) which veterans could be replaced without breaking the chemistry - c) What are the more glaring holes.
  5. Make moves according to previous point.
  6. Start negociation for "long term contract" for Subban
  7. Start negociation for "medium term contract" with Price
  8. Start inquiring about other teams plans for trade deadline.

During all of the above: listen to other teams' offers.
I agree with going younger but i just dont see a young stud in Hamilton this year. I see a lot of grinder type players and we need scoring . but I do agree you have to keep listening to offers from other teams

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:40 PM
  #69
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Cammalleri Plekanec A.Kost

Gionta Gomez Cole

Palushaj DD/Eller MaxPac

White DD/Eller Darche/Moen


Last edited by NewHabsEra*: 07-11-2011 at 04:01 PM.
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07-11-2011, 03:43 PM
  #70
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
I agree with going younger but i just dont see a young stud in Hamilton this year. I see a lot of grinder type players and we need scoring . but I do agree you have to keep listening to offers from other teams
That's why I think that, given the makeup of the team right now, Gauthier needs to take at least a full month of play into the season to be sure to identify what should and could be done.

The team is already good enough to start the season on the right foot, so there is no need to rush any decision like moving Spacek, signing that guy or that guy, or promoting this guy or that guy.

And honestly, I think Spacek's trade value is so low that it can only goes up as the trade deadline approach. If it turns out that he's still capable of playing 10-12 minutes of average hockey, his value could become very interesting comes the trade deadline. And if it turns out he can't, well, it won't make much of a difference with right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Cammalleri Plekanec A.Kost

Gionta Gomez Cole

Palushaj DD/Eller MaxPac

White/Blunden DD/Eller Darche
Moen's missing, but that sounds about right. I think Palushaj and Blunden will fight at camp with Enquist and probably a surprising player (could be anyone, guys like Dumont, Conboy, Willsie, etc.)


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-11-2011 at 05:20 PM. Reason: merged
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Old
07-11-2011, 03:48 PM
  #71
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Halpern was 2nd on the team among forwards for SH TOI/G and Pyatt was 4th (61 GP), so I hope PG/JM have a plan on who to use for those minutes because they are important minutes for a team who has struggled to score, and has to limit goals against. IMO, Mike Grier (led all Sabres in SH TOI/G) would be a good addition, and maybe take a chance on Drury who's good on the draw, and PK, and they need at least 1 RH player to take draws. 1 year deals only, and around $3 million probably gets them both. I scratch my head at why they let Halpern go, and underused his ability to win faceoffs. Habs' were exploited in the FO circle against the Bruins', and were 22nd overall last season in FO%. Room for improvement there.

FORWARDS
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Erik Cole ($4.500m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m) / Lars Eller ($1.270m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m)
Travis Moen ($1.500m) / Chris Drury ($1.750m) / Mike Grier ($1.250m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / Josh Gorges ($2.750m)
Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m) / P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) / Yannick Weber ($0.850m)
/ Alexei Yemelin ($0.984m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Peter Budaj ($1.150m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,995,509; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,304,491

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Old
07-11-2011, 03:50 PM
  #72
Zorba
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Moen's missing, but that sounds about right. I think Palushaj and Blunden will fight at camp with Enquist and probably a surprising player (could be anyone, guys like Dumont, Conboy, Willsie, etc.)
Mike blunden is not an NHL player in now way. Its my opinion obviously but why would Columbus trade him for a career minor leaguer? I ll say it again, we need another scoring winger. We got to stop depending on Price to save our *****. Lets win some barnburners once in a while.

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07-11-2011, 03:54 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Moen's missing, but that sounds about right. I think Palushaj and Blunden will fight at camp with Enquist and probably a surprising player (could be anyone, guys like Dumont, Conboy, Willsie, etc.)
You are right, Moen is missing so there is only one spot avalaible for a kid at the moment..

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07-11-2011, 04:31 PM
  #74
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
Mike blunden is not an NHL player in now way. Its my opinion obviously but why would Columbus trade him for a career minor leaguer? I ll say it again, we need another scoring winger. We got to stop depending on Price to save our *****. Lets win some barnburners once in a while.
I'm not saying the Habs don't need another scoring winger, I'm just saying it is what I think the camp will look like.

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07-11-2011, 04:36 PM
  #75
Zorba
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The question is where does PG find this scoring winger? and if he finds him does DD play fourth line centre?

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