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Old
07-11-2011, 10:05 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Amaro game him the contract, so he deserved it? Well going on Amaro's history, contracts aren't always his best thing.

Howard is a declining player, he has been declining since 2006. He has never been good defensively and that will not improve. he strikes out too much and is bad on the base-paths.

This year, players like Marc Trumbo, Daniel Murphy, Carlos pena, Adam Lind, and Michael Morse have been better.

Last year players like Lyle Overbay, Ike davis, Daric Barton, and Billy Butler were better.

Two years ago, Howard had a strong year.....and was not a top 8 1st baseman.

Three years ago, he was not a top 10 first baseman.

Four years ago, he was not top 8 once again.

From 2006 (his first full year) until this day, Ryan has a WAR of exactly 20...which ranks him 8th over that time span. Two of the players in front of him....Fielder and Pujols, who are FA's this offseason.


How in the world is he worth $25M/year?!?!?!
You are arguing a point I'm not contending, my friend... The point I'm defending is that there was demand and on the Open Market he would be sought after and bidding would inflate his contract much as many have before him.

I stated that most all star contracts are ridiculous and really not worth it. but it is what it is and the contracts are set on a supply and demand basis... Howard is a big home run hitting RBI man -- by nature most strike out more and many have lower averages -- HR hitters put fannies in the seats and stars put teams in a position of respect.

I do disagree on his fielding... check it out his errors are quite low for a First Baseman and he does hustle and does slap the leather quite a bit, his errors are mostly when throwing in haste to second... much as Utley's in throwing to First in key situation over bad stretches from time to time... Worth the money or not Ryan would get it on another team.

Howard would have got another large Arbitration Settlement had it progressed that far... Amaro structured the contract to give a better early portion IIRC and progressed upwards with a team option and a buyout figure, and there was only a limited no trade... Howard can be traded.

This is really not that challenging if kept civil and we discuss the same things... You see I don't totally disagree with you. I was just trying to say Howard was in for a big contract somewhere and he was wanted by other teams; never argued if he was worth all that big money... IMO none of them are.

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07-11-2011, 10:52 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
You are arguing a point I'm not contending, my friend... The point I'm defending is that there was demand and on the Open Market he would be sought after and bidding would inflate his contract much as many have before him.
The problem is that you are talking about a bidding war as if there actually was a bidding war. There wasn't. Ryan Howard never reached Free Agency. Had he not re-signed, he would have been a Free Agent after this season. The Phillies engages only themselves in a bidding war.

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I stated that most all star contracts are ridiculous and really not worth it. but it is what it is and the contracts are set on a supply and demand basis... Howard is a big home run hitting RBI man -- by nature most strike out more and many have lower averages -- HR hitters put fannies in the seats and stars put teams in a position of respect.
This isn't a debate about whether baseball players in general are overpaid, we are talking about a good but not great player getting paid like one of the absolute best players in the game. If, as you say, all major league contracts are "ridiculous," then it would be fair to say that Howard's contract is the most ridiculous of them all.

How do you respond to the fact that the Ryan Howard contract was universally panned by pretty much everyone who follows baseball? No one looked at that contract and said, "well, that's a pretty good deal."

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I do disagree on his fielding... check it out his errors are quite low for a First Baseman and he does hustle and does slap the leather quite a bit, his errors are mostly when throwing in haste to second... much as Utley's in throwing to First in key situation over bad stretches from time to time... Worth the money or not Ryan would get it on another team.
Errors alone are a small part of a player's defense. It doesn't matter which metric you choose to use, Howard consistently rates as below average defensively. Being a large man on the wrong side of 30, it's only going to get worse.

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Howard would have got another large Arbitration Settlement had it progressed that far... Amaro structured the contract to give a better early portion IIRC and progressed upwards with a team option and a buyout figure, and there was only a limited no trade... Howard can be traded.
Good joke. What team would trade for a past his prime, not elite, 32 year old slugger making $25 million/year? Name one team. There are only a handful of teams that could afford a contract of that size, and of those teams, they either don't need Howard or they're an organization that probably wouldn't trade for that kind of a contract.

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This is really not that challenging if kept civil and we discuss the same things... You see I don't totally disagree with you. I was just trying to say Howard was in for a big contract somewhere and he was wanted by other teams; never argued if he was worth all that big money... IMO none of them are.
Don't get all pissy. You are the one who insinuated that we are either new to the game or bandwagon fans, which is funny, since your argument is the one that doesn't make sense.

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07-11-2011, 10:56 PM
  #953
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Ryan Howard's contract is horrible. That is all.

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07-11-2011, 11:03 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Burrell is better than Ibanez and has been for the last two seasons.

Ibanez has been dreadful this season. Below replacement level. He was a bit better last year, but still bad. Overall, it was a **** signing. The Howard signing was worse.

Amaro does pretty well in trades, but he is ****ing terrible when it comes to signings and contracts.
So Amaro is the MLB version of Glen Sather. Hopefully he turns it around, considering the team will have about $40 million to spread out amongst re-signing players and free agents.

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07-11-2011, 11:41 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ryan Howard's contract is horrible. That is all.
Is anyone seriously debating that it's not? The contract was horrible before the ink even dried; worst part is that it hasn't even started yet. Howard's skills at the plate have at best stagnated, and, at worst, are declining (which is what's happening, regardless of how many RBI he has). His OPS this season is pathetic (for him). That was an image and emotional deal more than anything... the Phillies' brass couldn't fathom losing an institution like Howard -- one of the key cogs in the team's recent ascent to glory -- to free agency, and that colored their ability to objectively assess his worth going forward.

All in all, though, the bottom line remains that despite Howard's deficiencies, he's tied for the NL lead in RBI (tied for second in MLB)... his primary job is to drive in runs, and that's what he does. It's not as sexy as in years past, but he's still getting it done.

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07-11-2011, 11:41 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
The problem is that you are talking about a bidding war as if there actually was a bidding war. There wasn't. Ryan Howard never reached Free Agency. Had he not re-signed, he would have been a Free Agent after this season. The Phillies engages only themselves in a bidding war.
Being proactive no? Anytime you have a player like Howard you get bidding wars in Open Markets... In fact any player on the Open Market is open to an increased contract. Do you honestly expect me to believe that you don't see Howard being out there would increase his contract... And you are talking as if the Phillies are that bad managed team of the past and not a well built team that has success season after season and is in great shape this season; would you have us believe they are inept and merely lucky?

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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
This isn't a debate about whether baseball players in general are overpaid, we are talking about a good but not great player getting paid like one of the absolute best players in the game. If, as you say, all major league contracts are "ridiculous," then it would be fair to say that Howard's contract is the most ridiculous of them all.
We are in a discussion and I can voice my opinions as I see fit... We were talking about what you deem a bad contract and I stated my belief that all modern day MLB contracts for stars are ridiculously high; it is my opinion... You don't want to debate that yet you ask me to comment on if Howard's is the worse. Please make up your mind

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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
How do you respond to the fact that the Ryan Howard contract was universally panned by pretty much everyone who follows baseball? No one looked at that contract and said, "well, that's a pretty good deal."
I do so by saying that your blanket statement where is applies is often due to those who like me feel that being the second most high it is attune to the ridiculous trend... And often it is said by negative bloggers... Many pundits understood what Amaro did... and many pundits spewed sour grapes.

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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Errors alone are a small part of a player's defense. It doesn't matter which metric you choose to use, Howard consistently rates as below average defensively. Being a large man on the wrong side of 30, it's only going to get worse.
Of course errors are not the total gauge... for outfielders it is often a case of not getting to the ball; ergo no error.

Howard has worked at his fielding and is adequate in the position and handles throws at times very well... He loses the Phillies few games with his fielding and keeps them in many due to being fairly solid. He may still have a bad rapt from those who have not seen him grow there and from those who hold him up to the elite first basemen.

[QUOTE=Yoshimitsu;34929529]Good joke. What team would trade for a past his prime, not elite, 32 year old slugger making $25 million/year? Name one team. There are only a handful of teams that could afford a contract of that size, and of those teams, they either don't need Howard or they're an organization that probably wouldn't trade for that kind of a contract.[quote]

As I said before HR hitters put fannies in the seats... and often a trade can be made where people believe it can't. There are ways o move a contract and in MLB you can eat salary where you can't in other sports... I was just commenting on the fact that Amaro did no paint himself into a corner.

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Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Don't get all pissy. You are the one who insinuated that we are either new to the game or bandwagon fans, which is funny, since your argument is the one that doesn't make sense.
Again I stated that only because you refused to admit that there was talk of Howard signing with another team on the Open Market and how there was little belief that the Phillies would be able to out bid the bigger spenders... I was being sarcastic because IMO you had to have known that had you followed them a couple years back... I still believe you know that was the case.

And not once did I question you intelligence, nor insult you credibility for your opinion as I was insulted here tonight... Only now have you guys stared discussing rather than merely saying "did not happen".

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:48 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Is anyone seriously debating that it's not? The contract was horrible before the ink even dried; worst part is that it hasn't even started yet. Howard's skills at the plate have at best stagnated, and, at worst, are declining (which is what's happening, regardless of how many RBI he has). His OPS this season is pathetic (for him). That was an image and emotional deal more than anything... the Phillies' brass couldn't fathom losing an institution like Howard -- one of the key cogs in the team's recent ascent to glory -- to free agency, and that colored their ability to objectively assess his worth going forward.

All in all, though, the bottom line remains that despite Howard's deficiencies, he's tied for the NL lead in RBI (tied for second in MLB)... his primary job is to drive in runs, and that's what he does. It's not as sexy as in years past, but he's still getting it done.
And where would the Phillies be without Howard and his ridiculous contract? his team has money to spend and self respect -- which not too long ago the had only an inferiority complex -- and they are contenders with a future and window and full houses of happy fans every single home game... and traveling also... and fans not attending that love them. They are doing quite well for a team managed by a bunch of know nothing blunderers.

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07-11-2011, 11:50 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
And where would the Phillies be without Howard and his ridiculous contract? his team has money to spend and self respect -- which not too long ago the had only an inferiority complex -- and they are contenders with a future and window and full houses of happy fans every single home game... and traveling also... and fans not attending that love them. They are doing quite well for a team managed by a bunch of know nothing blunderers.
Same place they are. The contract hasn't started yet.

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07-11-2011, 11:54 PM
  #959
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Same place they are. The contract hasn't started yet.
You know what I meant... Okay then, make that where will they be next season going forward.

And actually, if they wouldn't be signing him then they most likely would be trading him... thus be without him... as I stated.


EDIT: And I believe his contract starts off along the same price range as this season and grows later... so in effect the payroll would not jump up... If they went to arbitration or signed a one year deal it would have risen and would bump it up.

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07-11-2011, 11:57 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Being proactive no? Anytime you have a player like Howard you get bidding wars in Open Markets... In fact any player on the Open Market is open to an increased contract. Do you honestly expect me to believe that you don't see Howard being out there would increase his contract... And you are talking as if the Phillies are that bad managed team of the past and not a well built team that has success season after season and is in great shape this season; would you have us believe they are inept and merely lucky?
Who were we going to be bidding against? Who?

The Yankees? No. They have a better 1B already on their roster (signed long term prior to Howard's deal) and they need to keep DH open for their aging stars.

The Red Sox? Nope... they traded for Gonzalez (a better 1B) and signed him long term.

After those two the Phils are grossly outspending everyone else, meaning we're suddenly in a bidding war where the Phils have a significant upper hand. At that point your argument rests on the assumption that other bidders would view the arrived at number as something they were willing to spend, which is almost certainly not true...

But, lets say someone else is willing to sign him to that deal... here's the deal, Howard is 31 right now and already looks like a hitter on the decline. He'll continue to put up some decent numbers, but do I think he's going to be hitting 40+ in back-to-back years in the future? No, I don't.

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07-12-2011, 12:03 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
You know what I meant... Okay then, make that where will they be next season going forward.

And actually, if they wouldn't be signing him then they most likely would be trading him... thus be without him... as I stated.
No, they wouldn't be trading him... they're a contending team. You suck it up and play for the WS title. I also think they ultimately would have been able to re-sign him, just at a lower rate than they did... of course, my problem is less with the money as it is with the years. Ryan Howard at 35-36 is probably not going to be all that great.

To be clear, I understand WHY they felt the need to do it... doesn't mean it wasn't a *ing terrible contract, which is why it got lambasted by every objective baseball writer out there.


Quote:
EDIT: And I believe his contract starts off along the same price range as this season and grows later... so in effect the payroll would not jump up... If they went to arbitration or signed a one year deal it would have risen and would bump it up.
Ah, his mid .800 OPS numbers weren't going to be netting him huge money in arbitration.

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07-12-2011, 12:17 AM
  #962
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No, they wouldn't be trading him... they're a contending team. You suck it up and play for the WS title. I also think they ultimately would have been able to re-sign him, just at a lower rate than they did... of course, my problem is less with the money as it is with the years. Ryan Howard at 35-36 is probably not going to be all that great.

To be clear, I understand WHY they felt the need to do it... doesn't mean it wasn't a *ing terrible contract, which is why it got lambasted by every objective baseball writer out there.
Maybe or maybe they want to reap a big return and get players back players that they feel would keep them in contention.

You do understand... that is good that it's not just me here who does and will say it... and yes it was too high but I still believe he would get it somewhere.

Quote:
Ah, his mid .800 OPS numbers weren't going to be netting him huge money in arbitration.
That is not what I said... With Arbitration he would have gotten higher -- he was on track for another record decision IIRC -- as he would have also with a one year deal agreed upon... With this new deal he gets lower in early years and ramps up later.

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07-12-2011, 12:42 AM
  #963
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Maybe or maybe they want to reap a big return and get players back players that they feel would keep them in contention.
We have the best record in baseball... they wouldn't be trading him.

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You do understand... that is good that it's not just me here who does and will say it... and yes it was too high but I still believe he would get it somewhere.
From who? Yankees and Red Sox are out. The Mets are a fiscal disaster about to lose the best player on their team. Phils are GROSSLY outspending everyone else. If someone bids you to that point, maybe you suck it up and sign that deal. To sign him for 5 years that far in advance of actually having to worry about it...

I mean, in all seriousness, the Cardinals are balking at giving Pujols (vastly superior) a huge contract and largely offered the one they did because they know their fans will crucify them if he walks.

The scary bidders just aren't out there to give that contract to him... and he wasn't going to get a crazy arbitration number (he really wasn't) so you can offer arbitration and in the worst case scenario take the picks... then that deal is someone else is problem.

Quote:
That is not what I said... With Arbitration he would have gotten higher -- he was on track for another record decision IIRC -- as he would have also with a one year deal agreed upon... With this new deal he gets lower in early years and ramps up later.
You realize that contract structure is actually far worse if your concern is that at the end of the contract you're going to desperately wish Howard wasn't at 1B for a ton of money, right?

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07-12-2011, 01:07 AM
  #964
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blah blah so much ******ry.

stop being a ****ing stick in the mud, jester. no one asked you to CONSTANTLY berate everything and anything.

who cares if he got overpaid? he hits HRs and drives in runs and as long as he does that at a high level, who cares?

wait, i forgot- RBIs are vastly overrated so howard pretty much sucks at everything.

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07-12-2011, 01:09 AM
  #965
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blah blah so much ******ry.

stop being a ****ing stick in the mud, jester. no one asked you to CONSTANTLY berate everything and anything.

who cares if he got overpaid? he hits HRs and drives in runs and as long as he does that at a high level, who cares?

wait, i forgot- RBIs are vastly overrated so howard pretty much sucks at everything.
Way to jump in and make it clear you didn't read any of the rest of the discussion involving other people.

You'll care that he got overpaid if the ownership begins to clamp down in years ahead and his contract operates as an albatross that leads to someone like say, Dom Brown leaving once he's started to produce.

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07-12-2011, 01:22 AM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Way to jump in and make it clear you didn't read any of the rest of the discussion involving other people.

You'll care that he got overpaid if the ownership begins to clamp down in years ahead and his contract operates as an albatross that leads to someone like say, Dom Brown leaving once he's started to produce.
i'll take ryan howard over dom brown any day.

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07-12-2011, 01:29 AM
  #967
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i'll take ryan howard over dom brown any day.
Lets say in a few years Dom Brown has blown up into the top of his ceiling... and Ryan Howard is a poor fielding 1B (he's already that) struggling to keep his average above .250 and his OPS has slid to the low .800s...

Still want Howard over Dom Brown?

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07-12-2011, 01:36 AM
  #968
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Back to the Ibanez vs. Burrell argument, I was sour as **** the day they let Pat Burrell walk. My favorite ****ing player. I miss you Pat.

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07-12-2011, 01:37 AM
  #969
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Back to the Ibanez vs. Burrell argument, I was sour as **** the day they let Pat Burrell walk. My favorite ****ing player. I miss you Pat.
Maybe for you, but I found it pathetic how Phillies fans conveniently forgot how badly he had been villified over the years. I actually thought it was perfect that he left on that positive note.

And they didn't really let Burrell walk... he shot them down on a far better contract than he ended up signing and they moved on.

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07-12-2011, 01:41 AM
  #970
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Maybe for you, but I found it pathetic how Phillies fans conveniently forgot how badly he had been villified over the years. I actually thought it was perfect that he left on that positive note.

And they didn't really let Burrell walk... he shot them down on a far better contract than he ended up signing and they moved on.
No I agree with you there Jester. I had seats in left field since 2004 and I ****ing HATED how many people berated him when there was absolutely no reason to at all. It was the most frustrating **** ever, to the point where I'd yell back at people in my misguided teenage years.

I can agree about the high note, but it still sucks that he was my favorite player and left. I'll always love the "ass-out strikeout" when the pitch is high and away

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07-12-2011, 01:43 AM
  #971
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So yeah, just a few days after the Rangers fan dying after going for a ball we nearly had another:

Derby fan nearly falls 20 feet to pool area in right field stands.

Here's a dude who along with his brother and friend already got 3 balls, yet he still stepped up on a table and reached out and went for another when Prince Fielder hit one his way.
Quote:
The Carmickles and Nelson gathered themselves after the near fall and let out a few shouts before breaking into high-fives...

"I stepped up on the table, I missed the ball by 2 or 3 feet and went over," he said. "We caught three balls and I told the guys I was going to go for the cycle. Dude, they were really holding onto me."
Dude, you're lucky they were holding onto you. I don't ever wish harm upon people, but after reading his comments and his reactions I wouldn't have felt particularly bad for him had he fell. His family yeah, but not a guy who gets up on a table situated precariously near a 20 foot drop over a fence 'cuz he "was going to go for the cycle" and high-fives his buddies after he nearly missed a fall that might've earned him a Darwin Award.

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07-12-2011, 01:44 AM
  #972
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No I agree with you there Jester. I had seats in left field since 2004 and I ****ing HATED how many people berated him when there was absolutely no reason to at all. It was the most frustrating **** ever, to the point where I'd yell back at people in my misguided teenage years.

I can agree about the high note, but it still sucks that he was my favorite player and left. I'll always love the "ass-out strikeout" when the pitch is high and away
Similar to Howard, he was an immensely frustrating player to watch because if he had ever truly learned to leave low and away breaking balls alone he would have instantly improved about ten-fold.

Howard is probably more frustrating because when Howard is really on, he can drive those pitches out to left... but ever since his MVP year he's become far too much of a pull hitter, which is infuriating given his power to left.

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07-12-2011, 01:45 AM
  #973
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Originally Posted by Phileeguy View Post
So yeah, just a few days after the Rangers fan dying after going for a ball we nearly had another:

Derby fan nearly falls 20 feet to pool area in right field stands.

Here's a dude who along with his brother and friend already got 3 balls, yet he still stepped up on a table and reached out and went for another when Prince Fielder hit one his way.


Dude, you're lucky they were holding onto you. I don't ever wish harm upon people, but after reading his comments and his reactions I wouldn't have felt particularly bad for him had he fell. His family yeah, but not a guy who gets up on a table situated precariously near a 20 foot drop over a fence 'cuz he "was going to go for the cycle" and high-fives his buddies after he nearly missed a fall that might've earned him a Darwin Award.
Yeah, that's a Darwin Award.

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07-12-2011, 01:47 AM
  #974
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Similar to Howard, he was an immensely frustrating player to watch because if he had ever truly learned to leave low and away breaking balls alone he would have instantly improved about ten-fold.

Howard is probably more frustrating because when Howard is really on, he can drive those pitches out to left... but ever since his MVP year he's become far too much of a pull hitter, which is infuriating given his power to left.
I've wondered why it is that he insists on being that pull hitter. I know he knows he's going to get a steady diet of low and away breaking stuff, but its almost like he is too stubborn to lay off of it. He has to have a better eye than that.

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07-12-2011, 01:49 AM
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Jester
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
I've wondered why it is that he insists on being that pull hitter. I know he knows he's going to get a steady diet of low and away breaking stuff, but its almost like he is too stubborn to lay off of it. He has to have a better eye than that.
Well, I think the natural tendency is to want to pull the ball, so you have to work at it to keep yourself more centered. I just remember when Howard came up so many of his HRs were left/left-center and now almost none of 'em are.

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