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Old
07-12-2011, 04:07 AM
  #101
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think Zubrus' offensive game was stifled by playing at too high a level of competition too early... which he largely managed because of how big he was at that age.

I'm ambivalent on where Couturier ends up. I don't think it's a bad thing inherently if he's in the junior next year... my primary concern with him is that he's a tall lanky kid, and he might really struggle with his frame at the NHL level out of the gate. I think a big part of JVR's problem was that he was so damn lanky and needed to build mass to go along with his height.

The biggest problem is where do you put Couturier on this team if he's up here... do we really want a 3rd line of Schenn and Coturier (one of whom would be playing "out of position")?
If he's ready then I think you make room for him. Yes I agree that his weight (or lack thereof) may be his biggest hinderance but I presonally wouldn't be opposed to putting him on Schenns wing (Schenn is much more NHL ready at this time IMO and that's why I keep him at center). We did something very very similar to this when Richards and Carter were rookies (and I understand that both were older than either Schenn or Couturier). Heck, I could even live with Couturier centering the 4th line and rolling all 4 on a much more regular basis. We have enough top end talent at forward above them that I don't believe we will hinder the developement of either Schenn or Couturier.

Again, if he's NOT ready then I can wait. Remember, I was one of earliest ones who told everyone to just be patient with Carter and later JVR. I understood that both would need a few years for their bodies to fill out before they could really hit their full offensive potentials. However, remember that during that "body filling out" time period, the Flyers coaching staff MADE both work hard on their defensive awareness and both became very good 2-way pplayers. I think that Couturier could begin working on his defensive play at the NHL level IN the NHL now. His body will catch up later and he can open up his offense and thus his entire game once he fills out. I just don't think that HE is going to need a fully filled out body to play sound defensively. I may be wrong and I trust Homer and our coaches to make the right call much better than me or anyone else sitting on a computer, lol. I guess what I've been trying to say is that I trust out GM and coaches to NOT eff this kid up. If he's up then I believe they will use him correctly and he'll progress exactly how they want/expect him too. If he's not up then he's obviously NOT ready.

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07-12-2011, 07:45 AM
  #102
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If he's ready then I think you make room for him. Yes I agree that his weight (or lack thereof) may be his biggest hinderance but I presonally wouldn't be opposed to putting him on Schenns wing (Schenn is much more NHL ready at this time IMO and that's why I keep him at center). We did something very very similar to this when Richards and Carter were rookies (and I understand that both were older than either Schenn or Couturier). Heck, I could even live with Couturier centering the 4th line and rolling all 4 on a much more regular basis. We have enough top end talent at forward above them that I don't believe we will hinder the developement of either Schenn or Couturier.

Again, if he's NOT ready then I can wait. Remember, I was one of earliest ones who told everyone to just be patient with Carter and later JVR. I understood that both would need a few years for their bodies to fill out before they could really hit their full offensive potentials. However, remember that during that "body filling out" time period, the Flyers coaching staff MADE both work hard on their defensive awareness and both became very good 2-way pplayers. I think that Couturier could begin working on his defensive play at the NHL level IN the NHL now. His body will catch up later and he can open up his offense and thus his entire game once he fills out. I just don't think that HE is going to need a fully filled out body to play sound defensively. I may be wrong and I trust Homer and our coaches to make the right call much better than me or anyone else sitting on a computer, lol. I guess what I've been trying to say is that I trust out GM and coaches to NOT eff this kid up. If he's up then I believe they will use him correctly and he'll progress exactly how they want/expect him too. If he's not up then he's obviously NOT ready.
I want him to spend one more year in juniors, if only because I hope one of Wellwood, Holmstrom, Read, Sestito or someone else steps up and claims that last forward spot.

Anyway, as we are right now we can't sign him to a contract anyway (assuming that Bacashihua signing is real and that Kalinski will be back as well). We'd have to shed one contract before we could add Couturier.



Oh, and some of you are taking much too much from this camp. After seeing Holmstrom play against guys like Cousins, Harper, Parks, Blidstrand and what have you, you are ready to ditch Betts for him? I'm not Betts biggest fan, and he wasn't exactly stellar last season, but let's not get carried away here. Holmstrom looked pretty decent in his few games he had last year and I have some hopes for him, but he needs to prove a lot more.


Last edited by mirimon: 07-12-2011 at 07:57 AM.
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Old
07-12-2011, 09:59 AM
  #103
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I doubt it. His junior team is a business, and winning games is ultimately their purpose.

In addition to that... we are not going to be able to trot out Briere and Giroux as our front line centers for all that long if we're serious about competing for a Cup. Briere is ultimately going to have to slide to the wing in the coming years, and we'll roll with Giroux-Schenn-Couturier, IMO.

I don't know how you rectify that short term.
I'm with you on this one. I don't think another year of Jr will necessarily hurt Couturier's development. He'll get a chance for a leading role at the WJC, but he could do that by being loaned to Team Canada by the Flyers too.

If he is one of the top 9 forwards coming out of camp, he should be considered for the team. If not, back to Jr.

I hate to harp on it, but the '85 SCF team had sophmore Sutters and rookies Tocchet, Zezel, Smith, Bergen (IIRC) so it's not as if having two highly regarded, talented rookies is going to necessarily hurt a team with some strong veteran leaders and a nice mix of young guys too.

As far as trotting out Giroux and Briere as top Cs, they were the 2 and 3Cs for an SCF run, with an arguable 'first' line of Richards and the Broken Feet Boys, Gagne and Carter. Really Giroux was 3C that year.

In deciding to trade Carter and Richards, they decided that Giroux is going to be the 1C with Danny as 2C for another year or two. That Couturier was there at 8 and will replace Briere as 2C someday soon was just a complete bonus.

Then there is the continuing Stamkos saga. He would have to play 1C, with Briere moving over in the role of Martin St. Louis.

I think Schenn can be a credible 3C now, or he could play LW with Talbot sliding to 3C.

Hartnell-Briere-Voracek - should be a good line. Voracek is bigger and faster than Leino, but can play the stop short or crash the net game and if he can break out a la JVR last year, it could be a great line.

JVR-Giroux-Jagr - I can see Jagr's vision and strength being a great help to this line. Jagr's puck control game will make Giroux even more dangerous and JVR will get lots of nice passes from his linemates.

Talbot/Nodl-Schenn-Simmonds - This will be one of the big camp Qs. Will Nodl or Talbot end up at 3LW? Is Couturier good enough to beat them BOTH out for 3LW, if not, it's back the Q?

Talbot/Nodl-Betts-Sestito/Holmstrom/Read/Rinaldo/Testwuide/Wellwood/Shelley

The battle for 4th line positions should be pretty fierce, esp. if they go after Drury as mentioned by Eskin.

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07-12-2011, 10:06 AM
  #104
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I'm with you on this one. I don't think another year of Jr will necessarily hurt Couturier's development. He'll get a chance for a leading role at the WJC, but he could do that by being loaned to Team Canada by the Flyers too.

If he is one of the top 9 forwards coming out of camp, he should be considered for the team. If not, back to Jr.

I hate to harp on it, but the '85 SCF team had sophmore Sutters and rookies Tocchet, Zezel, Smith, Bergen (IIRC) so it's not as if having two highly regarded, talented rookies is going to necessarily hurt a team with some strong veteran leaders and a nice mix of young guys too.

As far as trotting out Giroux and Briere as top Cs, they were the 2 and 3Cs for an SCF run, with an arguable 'first' line of Richards and the Broken Feet Boys, Gagne and Carter. Really Giroux was 3C that year.

In deciding to trade Carter and Richards, they decided that Giroux is going to be the 1C with Danny as 2C for another year or two. That Couturier was there at 8 and will replace Briere as 2C someday soon was just a complete bonus.

Then there is the continuing Stamkos saga. He would have to play 1C, with Briere moving over in the role of Martin St. Louis.

I think Schenn can be a credible 3C now, or he could play LW with Talbot sliding to 3C.

Hartnell-Briere-Voracek - should be a good line. Voracek is bigger and faster than Leino, but can play the stop short or crash the net game and if he can break out a la JVR last year, it could be a great line.

JVR-Giroux-Jagr - I can see Jagr's vision and strength being a great help to this line. Jagr's puck control game will make Giroux even more dangerous and JVR will get lots of nice passes from his linemates.

Talbot/Nodl-Schenn-Simmonds - This will be one of the big camp Qs. Will Nodl or Talbot end up at 3LW? Is Couturier good enough to beat them BOTH out for 3LW, if not, it's back the Q?

Talbot/Nodl-Betts-Sestito/Holmstrom/Read/Rinaldo/Testwuide/Wellwood/Shelley

The battle for 4th line positions should be pretty fierce, esp. if they go after Drury as mentioned by Eskin.
I expect this.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
(Jagr is a posession guy, but Hartnell works the wall and in front of the net and Jagr and Briere play off each other)
JVR-Giroux-Voracek (Giroux sets up the plays, JVR crashes the net and Voracek and Giroux play a lot off each other. Voracek has a good year.
Talbot-Schenn-Simmonds (Quite the third line IMHO, lots of checking, Simmonds works the wall and Schenn is given an opportunity to "catch up" to the offensive flow of the NHL in a 3rd line more traditional checking role)
Wellwood/Homstrom-Betts-Shelly/Rinaldo (Defensive energy line with some bruising, Talbot probably bounces between 3rd and 4th as we give rookies a chance at increased ice-time)

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07-12-2011, 10:14 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I expect this.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
(Jagr is a posession guy, but Hartnell works the wall and in front of the net and Jagr and Briere play off each other)
JVR-Giroux-Voracek (Giroux sets up the plays, JVR crashes the net and Voracek and Giroux play a lot off each other. Voracek has a good year.
Talbot-Schenn-Simmonds (Quite the third line IMHO, lots of checking, Simmonds works the wall and Schenn is given an opportunity to "catch up" to the offensive flow of the NHL in a 3rd line more traditional checking role)
Wellwood/Homstrom-Betts-Shelly/Rinaldo (Defensive energy line with some bruising, Talbot probably bounces between 3rd and 4th as we give rookies a chance at increased ice-time)
No Nodl?

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07-12-2011, 10:21 AM
  #106
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Nodl has esentially locked himself a place on this team after last years performance. If he can steady the ship in terms of offensive production he's going to be quite a player for us. He has the ability, but is so inconsistent it's rediculous.

With this top 9, we are going to the play-offs. I have no doubt in my mind. Infact, i think we are going to scare quite allot of teams with just how good this team can be. Schenn is going to be a monster in the NHL. Maybe not this year, or next, but I am of the opinion that he will knock any memory of Richards off it's perch. The flyers are going to be set at the forward position for a long, long time.

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07-12-2011, 10:21 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I expect this.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
(Jagr is a posession guy, but Hartnell works the wall and in front of the net and Jagr and Briere play off each other)
JVR-Giroux-Voracek (Giroux sets up the plays, JVR crashes the net and Voracek and Giroux play a lot off each other. Voracek has a good year.
Talbot-Schenn-Simmonds (Quite the third line IMHO, lots of checking, Simmonds works the wall and Schenn is given an opportunity to "catch up" to the offensive flow of the NHL in a 3rd line more traditional checking role)
Wellwood/Homstrom-Betts-Shelly/Rinaldo (Defensive energy line with some bruising, Talbot probably bounces between 3rd and 4th as we give rookies a chance at increased ice-time)
You forgot Nodl. He's ahead of Wellwood, Holmstrom, Shelley and Rinaldo on hte depth chart. Heck, I bet you Sestito is ahead of them as well. You're wasting Wellwood on the 4th line. He's either got to play top 9 or stay in the AHL bc I don't think he's good enough defensively


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Old
07-12-2011, 10:37 AM
  #108
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Schenn is training with Gary Roberts

at least he was before prospects camp

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07-12-2011, 10:37 AM
  #109
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No Nodl?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Nodl has esentially locked himself a place on this team after last years performance. If he can steady the ship in terms of offensive production he's going to be quite a player for us. He has the ability, but is so inconsistent it's rediculous.

With this top 9, we are going to the play-offs. I have no doubt in my mind. Infact, i think we are going to scare quite allot of teams with just how good this team can be. Schenn is going to be a monster in the NHL. Maybe not this year, or next, but I am of the opinion that he will knock any memory of Richards off it's perch. The flyers are going to be set at the forward position for a long, long time.
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You forgot Nodl. He's ahead of Wellwood, Holmstrom and Rinaldo on hte depth chart. Heck, I bet you Sestito is ahead of them as well. You're wasting Wellwood on the 4th line. He's either got to play top 9 or stay in the AHL bc I don't think he's good enough defensively
Oops, haha. I actually prefer the lines like this now.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
JVR-Giroux-Voracek
Nodl-Schenn-Simmonds
Talbot-Betts-Shelly
Rinaldo

Nodl and Talbot are interchangable really, but I Nodl is going to improve offensively when compared to Talbot.

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07-12-2011, 11:10 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Oops, haha. I actually prefer the lines like this now.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
JVR-Giroux-Voracek
Nodl-Schenn-Simmonds
Talbot-Betts-Shelly
Rinaldo

Nodl and Talbot are interchangable really, but I Nodl is going to improve offensively when compared to Talbot.
I can dig these lines, although I think that Read or Holmstrom will end up being the 13th forward coming out of camp.

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07-12-2011, 11:20 AM
  #111
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Schenn is training with Gary Roberts

at least he was before prospects camp
James Duthie's report about Roberts Camp last offseason: http://tsn.ca/columnists/james_duthie/?id=335457

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07-12-2011, 11:29 AM
  #112
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Off topic, but who do you play for in that league? I'm on the green team haha
Good game last night man I'm 27 the captain of the phantoms ... Off ot of the scrimmage but the 2 Farrell brothers ***** at each other so much that's why we loose their too busy fighting eachothet not the other team we would have had the win last night had they stopped fighting and passed more also I had a pretty nice check on 2 of your guys last night the heavy set Asian kid and a dude with a black helmet and white cage I go for the hit not he puck so hope no offense was taken it's just hockey lol

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07-12-2011, 11:50 AM
  #113
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Oops, haha. I actually prefer the lines like this now.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
JVR-Giroux-Voracek
Nodl-Schenn-Simmonds
Talbot-Betts-Shelly
Rinaldo

Nodl and Talbot are interchangable really, but I Nodl is going to improve offensively when compared to Talbot.
I'd prefer Jagr with Roo and Voracek with Briere. Roo seems to look for the nice pass first, while Jagr won't hesitate to bury them. I can Imagine ripping my hair out after Roo and Voracek pass 6 times in front of an open net.

Plus after seeing how Leino opened Briere's game up, Voracek would probably do something similar if not better.

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07-12-2011, 11:52 AM
  #114
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I'd prefer Jagr with Roo and Voracek with Briere. Roo seems to look for the nice pass first, while Jagr won't hesitate to bury them. I can Imagine ripping my hair out after Roo and Voracek pass 6 times in front of an open net.

Plus after seeing how Leino opened Briere's game up, Voracek would probably do something similar if not better.
Jagr and Giroux are puck possession guys, while I'm not against it, I personally think Jagr gels with Briere.

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07-12-2011, 12:17 PM
  #115
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Schenn is training with Gary Roberts

at least he was before prospects camp
I saw him in person yesterday and he's absolutely jacked for a sub-20 year old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
You forgot Nodl. He's ahead of Wellwood, Holmstrom, Shelley and Rinaldo on hte depth chart. Heck, I bet you Sestito is ahead of them as well. You're wasting Wellwood on the 4th line. He's either got to play top 9 or stay in the AHL bc I don't think he's good enough defensively
Sestito was quite underwhelming yesterday at the scrimmage. It didn't help that he took a slapper off the boot, keeping him on the bench most of the rest of the scrimmage. It's definitely a tough call as to who gets the last 2 or 3 spots. From what I saw yesterday, I feel like Holmstrom snags Betts' spot and Rinaldo gets the other 4th line wing spot. Those two with Talbot will really piss off some other teams.

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07-12-2011, 12:24 PM
  #116
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As Meltzer noted today, Sestito has to go through waivers to get to the Phantoms next year. If theydont keep him, you have to be comfortable losing him.

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07-12-2011, 12:35 PM
  #117
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As Meltzer noted today, Sestito has to go through waivers to get to the Phantoms next year. If theydont keep him, you have to be comfortable losing him.
I doubt we waive Shelly though. Every time I hear interviews with either the Homer or Lukko they seem to love Shelly.

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07-12-2011, 12:39 PM
  #118
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I doubt we waive Shelly though. Every time I hear interviews with either the Homer or Lukko they seem to love Shelly.
i personally would rather them waive Shelley and send rinaldo to the AHL.
Get ready for the "what can you do" quotes when Sestito gets claimed by a division rival because we all know Shelley will never be waived.


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07-12-2011, 12:40 PM
  #119
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I doubt we waive Shelly though. Every time I hear interviews with either the Homer or Lukko they seem to love Shelly.
Lukko went so far as to mention him as one of the "core players" check it out on the flyers media page.

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07-12-2011, 12:44 PM
  #120
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I doubt we waive Shelly though. Every time I hear interviews with either the Homer or Lukko they seem to love Shelly.
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Lukko went so far as to mention him as one of the "core players" check it out on the flyers media page.
I remember when Richards and Carter were described in the same way...

Whenever the Flyers' brass says a player is apart of the "core", you know that player's clock is ticking.

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07-12-2011, 12:47 PM
  #121
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Lukko went so far as to mention him as one of the "core players" check it out on the flyers media page.
You know what most people do with apple cores, right?

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07-12-2011, 01:05 PM
  #122
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Lukko went so far as to mention him as one of the "core players" check it out on the flyers media page.
Both Carter & Richards were "core" players too!

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07-12-2011, 01:10 PM
  #123
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Lukko went so far as to mention him as one of the "core players" check it out on the flyers media page.
Laughable given that he isn't even someone you want to dress for the playoffs. Your core players are not even in the discussion of being healthy scratched.

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07-12-2011, 01:14 PM
  #124
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Lukko went so far as to mention him as one of the "core players" check it out on the flyers media page.
Shelley is a core player?

This team might be worse off for next season than I originally expected.

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07-12-2011, 02:12 PM
  #125
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Two things: 1) I think Homer just talks about Shelley like that all the time just to aggravate us lol and 2) I'm not a fan of Andreas Nodl. Maybe he couldn't finish just because Richards always took the puck on his own and Nodl wasn't ready when he passed it. Hopefully he can change this season, because he seems like he can be a good player. He just couldn't finish almost anything last season

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