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Best Flyer prospects since.....????

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Old
07-12-2011, 07:50 PM
  #26
usahockey22flyers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not a very high level of competition. Same concerns existed about Turris.
Are you sure about that? NJ has actually gotten very talented in hockey. The big four teams are St. Augustine, Delbarton, St. Peters Prep, CBA (JvR). All have NHL talents to there resume, especially Delbarton, which team James scored in OT to win the state finals @ Continental Airlines Arena.

Obviously its not juniors but it's not like some rec league, he proved he has what it takes at the 2008 WJC.

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07-12-2011, 08:59 PM
  #27
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it's also interesting to factor in that, if you remember the flyers rumored scouting rankings, they were apparently set to pick JVR first overall if they hadn't lost out on the lottery anyway.

and concerns about compete level? turns out those concerns were really spot on huh?

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07-12-2011, 09:25 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I like you phillyfanatic, but your homerism is just mind bottling sometimes ("You know, when things are so crazy it gets your thoughts all trapped, like in a bottle?").

First, you go and try to start making Schenn our #1C already, and now you're off saying we have two "first overall talents". Why is that necessary? Why make that distinction? Why can't we just deal in truths and think of them as a 5th and an 8th overall selection that are great prospects?
1. I said put Schenn at Center with Giroux and JVR as his wings or SEND HIM TO THE MINORS. IMO, That is one of the two scoring lines. I just don't like him as our SHUTDOWN center. He is better suited in a scoring role than a checking role.

2. I asked when is the last time we had two prospects in the system like this? Schenn wen't fifth overall. He was rated fourth. And Couturier was rated #1 overall coming into his draft year.

The point is, I didn't make some bold statement about these guys being first overall talents and that they will be Hall of Famers, Superstars, All-Stars, even good NHL players. All I said was, when was the last time we had two prospects in our system that were drafted this high? Answer=NEVER. I looked it up out of curiosity, I was just wondering if anyone could think of an example.

JVR was 2nd overall. Giroux was in the 20's. Every year we pick very well in the 20's. Carter was almost a top 10 pick, Pitkanen was a top 5 pick, but we rarely pick in the top 10! This year, we have two guys in our "system" that were top 10 picks. Schenn is listed as the top prospect (of all draft years) not in the NHL. And like I said, Couturier was ranked #1 overall by ISS and Central Scouting this time last year.

I think you are reading two much into it.

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07-12-2011, 09:41 PM
  #29
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These guys are being overvalued big time. They're classes are nowhere near as good as the class of '03. Put Richards and Carter in these guys' classes and the Flyers don't even get a sniff.

The real shame of it is Homer got rid of so many of our firsts and seconds over the years and depleted the farm system.

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07-12-2011, 11:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Are you sure about that? NJ has actually gotten very talented in hockey. The big four teams are St. Augustine, Delbarton, St. Peters Prep, CBA (JvR). All have NHL talents to there resume, especially Delbarton, which team James scored in OT to win the state finals @ Continental Airlines Arena.

Obviously its not juniors but it's not like some rec league, he proved he has what it takes at the 2008 WJC.
Ah, yes, I'm sure of that. Teams also weren't thrilled with his plan to go to college, and the Flyers actually tried to talk him out of it.

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07-12-2011, 11:43 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, yes, I'm sure of that. Teams also weren't thrilled with his plan to go to college, and the Flyers actually tried to talk him out of it.
Yeah they did, the decision of going back to college for the 2nd year didn't sit right with the Flyers as well. But James comes from a great/strongly educated family, I guess he realized his career could be cut short, and for a lot of players, there is work after hockey.

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07-13-2011, 12:07 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
it's also interesting to factor in that, if you remember the flyers rumored scouting rankings, they were apparently set to pick JVR first overall if they hadn't lost out on the lottery anyway.

and concerns about compete level? turns out those concerns were really spot on huh?
There is not a single team in the NHL I trust more when it comes to picking and developing forwards than the Philadelphia Flyers.

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07-13-2011, 12:23 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
There is not a single team in the NHL I trust more when it comes to picking and developing forwards than the Philadelphia Flyers.
The Detroit Red Wings say hello

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07-13-2011, 12:30 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Flyer Rob View Post
The Detroit Red Wings say hello
Not really. I'd trust the Red Wings to have a better draft overall across all positions, particularly on the blueline. That said, I still trust the Flyers just as much or a little more when it comes to forwards.

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07-13-2011, 12:45 AM
  #35
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williams and gagne. i think everybody knew kind of early they both were in the top of thier draft class despite where they were picked.

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07-13-2011, 12:49 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
williams and gagne. i think everybody knew kind of early they both were in the top of thier draft class despite where they were picked.
I did the success percentage a while ago. I forget where everyone fell, but the Flyers' percentage in the first three rounds compared to other teams is pretty spectacular.

No surprise though that Philadelphia and Detroit were at the top.

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07-13-2011, 07:48 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
1. I said put Schenn at Center with Giroux and JVR as his wings or SEND HIM TO THE MINORS. IMO, That is one of the two scoring lines. I just don't like him as our SHUTDOWN center. He is better suited in a scoring role than a checking role.

2. I asked when is the last time we had two prospects in the system like this? Schenn wen't fifth overall. He was rated fourth. And Couturier was rated #1 overall coming into his draft year.

The point is, I didn't make some bold statement about these guys being first overall talents and that they will be Hall of Famers, Superstars, All-Stars, even good NHL players. All I said was, when was the last time we had two prospects in our system that were drafted this high? Answer=NEVER. I looked it up out of curiosity, I was just wondering if anyone could think of an example.

JVR was 2nd overall. Giroux was in the 20's. Every year we pick very well in the 20's. Carter was almost a top 10 pick, Pitkanen was a top 5 pick, but we rarely pick in the top 10! This year, we have two guys in our "system" that were top 10 picks. Schenn is listed as the top prospect (of all draft years) not in the NHL. And like I said, Couturier was ranked #1 overall by ISS and Central Scouting this time last year.

I think you are reading two much into it.
I'm not disagreeing with your general sentiment behind your thread; I just strictly have an issue with the "first overall talents" comment. Perhaps I have some sort of complex where I have a terrible fear of becoming like the Leafs' fanbase in that we horribly overrate our prospects. I'm certainly not disagreeing that Schenn and Couterier are amazing prospects, I just hate that particular comment. Let's let them be what they are; no need to make the jump to "first overall talents". All it would do among other fanbases is incite criticism. 5th and 8th overall is enough pedigree.

As for some of your points:

1) I personally don't think we have a shutdown center at all so it doesn't matter. I'd rather have Schenn be the 3rd line C where his offensive output would be a plus, than for him to be the 1st line C, and feel immense pressure to produce. I also don't think him being on the 3rd line means he's going to get the toughest defensive matchups; because I doubt he would.

2) I guess JVR and Giroux.

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07-13-2011, 11:03 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Yeah they did, the decision of going back to college for the 2nd year didn't sit right with the Flyers as well. But James comes from a great/strongly educated family, I guess he realized his career could be cut short, and for a lot of players, there is work after hockey.
Your point?

I think everyone understands why he wanted to go to college. But the fact is that beating up on high school players (especially in what is not traditionally really a hockey-rich area, even if NJ has greatly improved) and then deciding to go to college isn't usually considered top-notch competitive preparation for the NHL.

It doesn't mean their doubts were eventually proven correct, but there were a great deal of concerns at the time. Hell, people on here were fairly convinced he didn't have 'it' up until the playoffs this year, and now he's considered a stud and people will swear up and down he always has been seen as such, which is untrue.

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07-13-2011, 12:06 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyer Rob View Post
The Detroit Red Wings say hello
In the last 10 years, here's the notable forwards The Flyers and the Red Wings have drafted. Which group would you take?

Red Wings:
Shawn Matthias
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Jiri Hudler
Tomas Fleischmann
Valtteri Filppula
Tomas Kopecky

Flyers:
James Van Riemsdyk
Claude Giroux
Andreas Nodl
Steve Downie
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Colin Fraser
Ryan Potulny
Patrick Sharp
Justin Williams

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07-13-2011, 12:14 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And he came up small in the big games, which cast doubts on him.

I'm just telling you the scouting report, which is why there was a lot of debate about the 2nd pick in that draft.
he took the penalty in a tie game very late in the game that led to his UNH team getting KO'd out of the frozen 4 in 2009. I remember leaving the arena cursing his name that night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
In the last 10 years, here's the notable forwards The Flyers and the Red Wings have drafted. Which group would you take?

Red Wings:
Shawn Matthias
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Jiri Hudler
Tomas Fleischmann
Valtteri Filppula
Tomas Kopecky

Flyers:
James Van Riemsdyk
Claude Giroux
Andreas Nodl
Steve Downie
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Colin Fraser
Ryan Potulny
Patrick Sharp
Justin Williams

check the draft position of those players. Detroit has done a good job as anyone drafting after round 1. we are too busy drafting awesome players like Klotz in round 3

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07-13-2011, 12:14 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
In the last 10 years, here's the notable forwards The Flyers and the Red Wings have drafted. Which group would you take?

Red Wings:
Shawn Matthias
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Jiri Hudler
Tomas Fleischmann
Valtteri Filppula
Tomas Kopecky

Flyers:
James Van Riemsdyk
Claude Giroux
Andreas Nodl
Steve Downie
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Colin Fraser
Ryan Potulny
Patrick Sharp
Justin Williams
Since 1992 the Red Wings have used a single 1st rd pick on a forward.

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07-13-2011, 12:55 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
In the last 10 years, here's the notable forwards The Flyers and the Red Wings have drafted. Which group would you take?

Red Wings:
Shawn Matthias
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Jiri Hudler
Tomas Fleischmann
Valtteri Filppula
Tomas Kopecky

Flyers:
James Van Riemsdyk
Claude Giroux
Andreas Nodl
Steve Downie
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Colin Fraser
Ryan Potulny
Patrick Sharp
Justin Williams
Drafting then trading and drafting then developing forwards are 2 very different things...his post says drafting and developing forwards, does it not?

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07-13-2011, 12:58 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
check the draft position of those players. Detroit has done a good job as anyone drafting after round 1. we are too busy drafting awesome players like Klotz in round 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Since 1992 the Red Wings have used a single 1st rd pick on a forward.

Which says more about the priorities of the organization. I'm not arguing the Flyers have a better overall scouting department. But when it comes to forwards, the Flyers have had a lot more success in drafting forwards than the wings.

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07-13-2011, 01:02 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
Which says more about the priorities of the organization. I'm not arguing the Flyers have a better overall scouting department. But when it comes to forwards, the Flyers have had a lot more success in drafting forwards than the wings.
Largely because they've sunk premium picks at forward, not because they are necessarily better at drafting and developing forwards. Try this, takeaway the Flyers 1st rounders, and how do the teams compare?

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07-13-2011, 01:02 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
he took the penalty in a tie game very late in the game that led to his UNH team getting KO'd out of the frozen 4 in 2009. I remember leaving the arena cursing his name that night.

check the draft position of those players. Detroit has done a good job as anyone drafting after round 1. we are too busy drafting awesome players like Klotz in round 3
And we've done a better job than anyone drafting in the first round.

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07-13-2011, 01:03 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Flyer Rob View Post
Drafting then trading and drafting then developing forwards are 2 very different things...his post says drafting and developing forwards, does it not?
Ok. If you prefer:

Red Wings:
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Jiri Hudler
Tomas Kopecky


Flyers:
James Van Riemsdyk
Claude Giroux
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Justin Williams

Which group would you take?

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Old
07-13-2011, 01:09 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
Ok. If you prefer:

Red Wings:
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Johan Franzen
Jiri Hudler
Tomas Kopecky


Flyers:
James Van Riemsdyk
Claude Giroux
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Justin Williams

Which group would you take?
Why did you cut out Gagne and Downie and Nodl and Sharp? They successfully developed within our system as well.

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Old
07-13-2011, 01:10 PM
  #48
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Carolina deserves at least some of the credit for Williams.

There is no doubt that the Flyers are a very good drafting team in the 1st rd when it comes to forwards. Just not fair to make direct comparisons with the Red Wings the last 10 years when they haventused any picks on forwards that early.

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07-13-2011, 01:15 PM
  #49
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Largely because they've sunk premium picks at forward, not because they are necessarily better at drafting and developing forwards. Try this, takeaway the Flyers 1st rounders, and how do the teams compare?
The Flyer scouts do a very good job of getting top talent in the first round (they may be the best at drafting stars at or near 20). The Red Wings hardly ever trade draft picks and they are the kings of Europe, especially Sweden. They are WITHOUT QUESTION the best European scouting department in the NHL.

If Snider/Homer stick to their own philosophy and keep draft picks, I have faith that each year the Flyers will draft a very good player in the first round and maybe the second round and after that......it is a crapshoot for all teams not named the RedWings.

The Flyers prefer a North American style of game to sell to their fans. The Red WIngs draft skill and promote skill. If we used that philosophy and invested in the scouting, we would get "lucky" each year like the Red Wings. Detroit is the model, there is no question. I would LOVE to see the Flyers use Detroit as their model. Yzerman would like to use the model, but he doesn't have the money to invest in the European scouts. We do. Sadly, I think we are more likely to draft a 6-5 fighter out of Saskatoon in the fourth round versus a potential top end forward from Sweden.

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Old
07-13-2011, 01:19 PM
  #50
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The superiority of the Red Wings is founded largely on picks a decade old. European scouting for all teams has come a long way since then as well.

They are a team that is smartly managed with a clear organizational philosophy.

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