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Old
07-13-2011, 12:57 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
How many teams will Stamkos invite into the after-market of potential suitors?
That is the question.
If it's the rest of the league, no holds barred, there will many competitive offers.
If SS says my list is just two or three teams, the shorter the list, the lower are those few lowball offers and nominal competitive offers to pay just enough to get him.

Stamkos
for
Stepan
Gaborik
Christian Thomas
Stacjer
Girardi
and choice of
M. Staal
or
McDonaugh + Sauer

would probably be basis of difficult but worthwhile overpayment (not including AA, Cally, Dubi).
Lightning would ship out deadwood or trade more expensive items (Gaborik) to highest bidder to maintain cap and financial risk acceptable, but would have flexible summer to decide how to do so.
Bern! Come back down to earth... Couldn't resist suggesting a 'supreme' trade could you?

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Old
07-13-2011, 01:27 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by JaeTM View Post
Quick question...

If a team offers a player an offer sheet and and the player wants to play for that team for that contract(say Stammer gets offered a contract from another team) but the original team(TBL in this case) matches, does the player have to sign with his original club or can he choose?
No it's not his choice. RFA's can solicit offer sheets, but if their current clubs matches it, they must stay with that team.

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07-13-2011, 09:54 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Nearly all of those guys are on the table if you are talking about dealing for a 21 year old former first overall pick who has exceeded his hype. I'd prefer to keep Hank, but honestly if you are talking about Stamkos everyone has to be in play.

That said, I'd actually rather offer sheet him and pay the 4 first rounders than deal a huge part of our core to get him.
So would I.
The premise in my post is, consistent with earlier posts, only possible means of acquisition is by trade, to avoid poaching and/or other retaliation!

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Old
07-13-2011, 09:57 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
Bern, what is it you exactly smoke before you make incredible terrible and grandiose proposals?
Ok, the rest of you guys from the 60's; chime in if you remember the song:

"I don't need no doctor,
I don't need no doctor..."

PS.
Dare to dream, and dream big.

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:00 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
So would I.
The premise in my post is, consistent with earlier posts, only possible means of acquisition is by trade, to avoid poaching and/or other retaliation!
Bern, you suggested a 6 or 7 player trade for Stamkos... When has that ever happened before in the league? The most players I can ever recall being traded for a single player is 4 (maybe 5 max). Also, did you consider the salaries/cap hits? Stamkos will get signed somewhere in the $7-8 mil range... In your trade proposal, you have somewhere between $13-16 mil in cap hits going the other way... If TB could accommodate those cap hits & salaries, why wouldn't they just re-sign Stamkos?

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:09 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Ok, the rest of you guys from the 60's; chime in if you remember the song:

"I don't need no doctor,
I don't need no doctor..."

PS.
Dare to dream, and dream big.
That was not a big dream, it was a big nightmare

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:10 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
So, your basically doing a mash up of Devils Advocate / Trollface?

Because rarely is one star traded for about 10 different pieces with decent value, generally they try to get the 2nd best player in the trade possible.
Stamkos is the best player.
By definition, TB would get 2nd best player; however, I get what your saying.

I did not want to gut the Dubi - AA - Cally line.
I offered Stepan, a replacement C on a low contract with lots of potential as a down payment.

Setting aside Gaborik, who TBL may trade rather than keep his 7ish m salary/cap hit,

I then went as far as to offer an option to Marc Staal
OR OR OR OR
a pair of cheaper, but effective promising Ds.

A base including Stepan + Staal
or
Stepan + McDonaugh + Sauer

is not chopped liver for one guy.

Again, Coke for Pepsi is not usually an effective strategy.
There is nothing wrong w/"quantity for quality" if the sum total of the quantity adds up, or by means of synergy is enough to be respectable return against the quality.

I believe this is.

I would certainly prefer and certainly try to offer less, beginning with Staal.
But again, the premise is you are bidding vs the rest of the league, that Stamkos has not submitted a narrowed list or said "I only want to go to Rangers" which would dramatically change things.

If you don't want to give up Dubi - AA - Cally +, this is what you may be forced to.

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:20 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Stamkos is the best player.
By definition, TB would get 2nd best player; however, I get what your saying.

I did not want to gut the Dubi - AA - Cally line.
I offered Stepan, a replacement C on a low contract with lots of potential as a down payment.

Setting aside Gaborik, who TBL may trade rather than keep his 7ish m salary/cap hit,

I then went as far as to offer an option to Marc Staal
OR OR OR OR
a pair of cheaper, but effective promising Ds.

A base including Stepan + Staal
or
Stepan + McDonaugh + Sauer

is not chopped liver for one guy.

Again, Coke for Pepsi is not usually an effective strategy.
There is nothing wrong w/"quantity for quality" if the sum total of the quantity adds up, or by means of synergy is enough to be respectable return against the quality.

I believe this is.

I would certainly prefer and certainly try to offer less, beginning with Staal.
But again, the premise is you are bidding vs the rest of the league, that Stamkos has not submitted a narrowed list or said "I only want to go to Rangers" which would dramatically change things.

If you don't want to give up Dubi - AA - Cally +, this is what you may be forced to.
Gotta believe they would much rather have Staal than McDonagh + Sauer.

So that makes the package start with Staal + Stepan.... Already quite pricey...and I'm sure they'd still want more. As we've discussed above, I'd probably rather give the 4 first rounders than just those 2 guys. lol

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:27 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Bern, you suggested a 6 or 7 player trade for Stamkos... When has that ever happened before in the league? The most players I can ever recall being traded for a single player is 4 (maybe 5 max). Also, did you consider the salaries/cap hits? Stamkos will get signed somewhere in the $7-8 mil range... In your trade proposal, you have somewhere between $13-16 mil in cap hits going the other way... If TB could accommodate those cap hits & salaries, why wouldn't they just re-sign Stamkos?
Don't be excessively limited if you can avoid it.
The summer allows for some degree of temporary cap manipulation.

Say Stamkos says in the name of union solidarity I won't take less than top top dollar as close to the maximum as possible.

Say given that or otherwise hypothetically for whatever reasons TBL decides it must part with Stamkos and considers this --- or a variation on this --- the best deal on the table.

It wants the maximum return on talent going the other way. If it can eventually (timely enough) divest of extra cap, it can STILL keep most if not all that extra talent.

So let's apply that here.
There are other options, but the obvious one is Gaborik.
Sending Gaborik helps NYR create cap for Stamkos.
If there was too much, Lightning can keep younger sniper (Gaborik) and trade other assets (possibly including older sniper Martin St. Louis).

Alternatively, teams like the Pens would be in a relatively long line that would love to get Gaborik. So maybe Gaborik (and his 7m) is the one to go.

So the salary is not really an issue.
Yeah, TBL can't wait to the very last minute, back themselves up against a wall, and then have to move assets quickly and doing so at discount, take a loss.

But honestly, at this point this is not a problem.

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:30 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Ok, the rest of you guys from the 60's; chime in if you remember the song:

"I don't need no doctor,
I don't need no doctor..."

PS.
Dare to dream, and dream big.
dream big?? dream big of what? organizational suicide? Your utterly ridiculous trade proposal would decimate this team's future and depth. So NO your trade would not be worth it, just like most of your trades aren't. I'm sorry but I have to believe you really never think any of them through.

Most people want stamkos to add to BR and Gaborik. Not deal gaborik for him. I'm not sure the Lightning would even want Gaborik.

Then you throw in Stepan and arguably our best scoring forward prospect right now in Thomas?

Oh but you're not done. We'll add Stacjer when our goaltending depth is anything but impressive.

AND THEN we'll give them Girardi who is on our 1st pair here. Also they get to choose from one of Staal/McD/Sauer? So obviously they choose Staal. SO IN ESSENCE they get our 1st pair D?

Just delete your username or at least save yourself the embarrassment and dont propose anymore trades.

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:34 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Bern, you suggested a 6 or 7 player trade for Stamkos... When has that ever happened before in the league? The most players I can ever recall being traded for a single player is 4 (maybe 5 max). Also, did you consider the salaries/cap hits? Stamkos will get signed somewhere in the $7-8 mil range... In your trade proposal, you have somewhere between $13-16 mil in cap hits going the other way... If TB could accommodate those cap hits & salaries, why wouldn't they just re-sign Stamkos?
Disagree, wolfie.
At. 7-8 it should be EASY for TB to re-sign him.

I expect him to re-sign, but I expect him to push it well over 9 on average depending upon the length of the deal.

Factor into that TBL must be concerned about one or two years front loaded at closer to whatever that maximum is (again, I think somewhere I saw on the boards a number in the ballpark of or around $13m).

So yeah, unless they move LeCavalier (possible but not easy w/cap hit), it will be interesting to see how far STAMKOS pushes TB up against the wall, and if it is too much, then does it make sense to see what kind of ransom can they get?

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:44 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
dream big?? dream big of what? organizational suicide? Your utterly ridiculous trade proposal would decimate this team's future and depth. So NO your trade would not be worth it, just like most of your trades aren't. I'm sorry but I have to believe you really never think any of them through.

Most people want stamkos to add to BR and Gaborik. Not deal gaborik for him. I'm not sure the Lightning would even want Gaborik.

Then you throw in Stepan and arguably our best scoring forward prospect right now in Thomas?

Oh but you're not done. We'll add Stacjer when our goaltending depth is anything but impressive.

AND THEN we'll give them Girardi who is on our 1st pair here. Also they get to choose from one of Staal/McD/Sauer? So obviously they choose Staal. SO IN ESSENCE they get our 1st pair D?

Just delete your username or at least save yourself the embarrassment and dont propose anymore trades.
Talk about a lack of gratitude/appreciation.
People on the board said yeah, for Stamkos, then even the untouchables are touchable.
I come up with something that arguably minimizes that by offering a large amount of depth in other assets.
What do you expect to pay for Stamkos?

Let's see your constructive proposal, and how realistic it is...
Go ahead, I call your bluff, show us what YOU can come up with.
Talk is cheap.
It is easy to destroy; it is difficult to build.
Let's see what you come up with, given the parameters I outlined in 164 + 166...

Today is Thursday. 7/13
I'll give you thru the weekend til Monday to deliver something tasty.

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:47 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
... Just delete your username or at least save yourself the embarrassment and dont propose anymore trades.
Does not deserve the dignity of a response.
However, I'm recalling that character from Futurama; what was it Bender likes to say?
Oh yeah:
BITE MY {SHINY METAL} .... forgot the rest of it

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Old
07-13-2011, 11:08 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Disagree, wolfie.
At. 7-8 it should be EASY for TB to re-sign him.

I expect him to re-sign, but I expect him to push it well over 9 on average depending upon the length of the deal.

Factor into that TBL must be concerned about one or two years front loaded at closer to whatever that maximum is (again, I think somewhere I saw on the boards a number in the ballpark of or around $13m).

So yeah, unless they move LeCavalier (possible but not easy w/cap hit), it will be interesting to see how far STAMKOS pushes TB up against the wall, and if it is too much, then does it make sense to see what kind of ransom can they get?
But again, you are asking them to take on a minimum of $13 mil in salary. If they could afford to pay that, why not just re-sign the player to the desired front-loaded contract and be done with it?

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07-13-2011, 11:09 AM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Ok, the rest of you guys from the 60's; chime in if you remember the song:

"I don't need no doctor,
I don't need no doctor..."

PS.
Dare to dream, and dream big.
That's Humble Pie, no?

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Old
07-13-2011, 11:15 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Talk about a lack of gratitude/appreciation.
People on the board said yeah, for Stamkos, then even the untouchables are touchable.
I come up with something that arguably minimizes that by offering a large amount of depth in other assets.
What do you expect to pay for Stamkos?

Let's see your constructive proposal, and how realistic it is...
Go ahead, I call your bluff, show us what YOU can come up with.
Talk is cheap.
It is easy to destroy; it is difficult to build.
Let's see what you come up with, given the parameters I outlined in 164 + 166...

Today is Thursday. 7/13
I'll give you thru the weekend til Monday to deliver something tasty.
I'm not going to let the moment and allure of getting a player like stamkos to cloud my reasoning and judgement. I'm not going to make a counter proposal because I am not willing to pay any hefty price to get him. Our organization is in good position right now to keep moving forward. Stay the course, don't deviate. I have hardly posted in this thread because getting Stamkos is unrealistic. I'm not sure how "I call your bluff" applies maybe you need to rethink that part of your post. I never made a proposal in this thread and dont intend to. But I will pick apart the idiocy of other proposals to shed some light of sensibility in this thread.

This is where you're proposal leaves us (and I dont care about the line combinations):

________- Richards - Stamkos
Dubinsky - Anisimov - Callahan
Wolski - _______ - MZA
Prust - Boyle - Fedotenko

Extra's: Avery, Rupp, EC.

_______ - ________
McDonagh - Sauer
Erixon - MDZ/Valentenko



You dont have Thomas anymore who could be a future top 6 forward. You've dealt Stepan who could also be a top 6 forward.

You have no legitimate LWer. Now yes you could move Dubinsky up to the 1st line. But that means then you have to move Wolski or Avery into the 2nd line LW. You weaken the depth. Then who plays 3rd line LW? You can not assume Hagelin makes the team out of camp. You also can not assume you find something via Free Agency because there is not a lot left. Also can't just make another trade because you've already exploited a lot of your assets in the stamkos trade.

But forget the forward group. The defense is the most glaring of problems. Staal-Girardi are irreplaceable. There is no one in free agency. There is no one in our system who are ready to step in and play the game that Staal does. Erixon might be that guy a few years down the line but not right now. And again you cant afford to make another big trade.

But go ahead put your trade proposal on the trade board. I'm sure it'll get a warm reception by not just Lightning fans but other fans seeing as they will view us as idiots for making such a proposal. Lightning fans would be licking their chops to get a deal like yours, it'd be highway robbery and a travesty.

EDIT: Not to mention what wolfgaze already pointed out, TBL would not be able to take on all that salary.

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Old
07-13-2011, 11:21 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
How many teams will Stamkos invite into the after-market of potential suitors?
That is the question.
If it's the rest of the league, no holds barred, there will many competitive offers.
If SS says my list is just two or three teams, the shorter the list, the lower are those few lowball offers and nominal competitive offers to pay just enough to get him.

Stamkos
for
Stepan
Gaborik
Christian Thomas
Stacjer
Girardi
and choice of
M. Staal
or
McDonaugh + Sauer

would probably be basis of difficult but worthwhile overpayment (not including AA, Cally, Dubi).
Lightning would ship out deadwood or trade more expensive items (Gaborik) to highest bidder to maintain cap and financial risk acceptable, but would have flexible summer to decide how to do so.
The problem with your "proposals" is that you put absolutely no thought into them (at least, I hope you don't, considering how awful they are).

Take a good look at what you proposed. We are sending at least 4, maybe 5 NHL players to tampa. Where are they going to play? You think tampa has that many open roster spots? You think they're willing to spend that much money for a bunch of players they don't need?

And that's not to mention that you'd decimate our defense, sending either our top pairing or 3 of our top 4. Who replaces all these players?

For your sake, I seriously hope you're just a troll, because you come up with the worst proposals I've ever seen. And on HF, that's saying something.

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07-13-2011, 11:47 AM
  #193
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Bern, I do not want to be mean, but your proposals are terrible.

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07-13-2011, 12:04 PM
  #194
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For your sake, I seriously hope you're just a troll, because you come up with the worst proposals I've ever seen. And on HF, that's saying something.
I think we have a serious competitor for the JOrts Memorial Trophy here.

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Old
07-13-2011, 12:23 PM
  #195
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I think we have a serious competitor for the JOrts Memorial Trophy here.
what ever happened to him?

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07-13-2011, 12:47 PM
  #196
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what ever happened to him?
he fell off the end of the Earth

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07-13-2011, 01:00 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Talk about a lack of gratitude/appreciation.
People on the board said yeah, for Stamkos, then even the untouchables are touchable.
I come up with something that arguably minimizes that by offering a large amount of depth in other assets.
What do you expect to pay for Stamkos?

Let's see your constructive proposal, and how realistic it is...
Go ahead, I call your bluff, show us what YOU can come up with.
Talk is cheap.
It is easy to destroy; it is difficult to build.
Let's see what you come up with, given the parameters I outlined in 164 + 166...

Today is Thursday. 7/13
I'll give you thru the weekend til Monday to deliver something tasty.
I'm gonna say trading for stamkos is NOT realistic, period. Unless stamkos refuses to play for tampa it's not happening.

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07-13-2011, 04:49 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
How many teams will Stamkos invite into the after-market of potential suitors?
That is the question.
If it's the rest of the league, no holds barred, there will many competitive offers.
If SS says my list is just two or three teams, the shorter the list, the lower are those few lowball offers and nominal competitive offers to pay just enough to get him.

Stamkos
for
Stepan
Gaborik
Christian Thomas
Stacjer
Girardi
and choice of
M. Staal
or
McDonaugh + Sauer

would probably be basis of difficult but worthwhile overpayment (not including AA, Cally, Dubi).
Lightning would ship out deadwood or trade more expensive items (Gaborik) to highest bidder to maintain cap and financial risk acceptable, but would have flexible summer to decide how to do so.
If this trade was to occur I would never watch the Rangers ever again. I'm sorry but this has to be the worst proposal I have ever seen. You might as well add MSG, The shield emblem, and the Statue of Liberty's head because this proposal drops our team from a contender to 14th in the conference while destroying our depth.

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07-13-2011, 08:17 PM
  #199
bernmeister
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But again, you are asking them to take on a minimum of $13 mil in salary. If they could afford to pay that, why not just re-sign the player to the desired front-loaded contract and be done with it?
Forgive me, wolfie, it' been a hard day's night.

I'm not sure I understand you (your question). The "they" you refer to is Tampa.

I agree, fully, if there is anyway TB can keep Stamkos they will.
I have no inside scoop (and never claimed to) as to what Lightning can swing.

I fully expect 'high but normal #s' --- 7, 8 mil to be met. Easily.
Not so easy is the higher you go.
9, 10 mil maybe.

More, if Stamkos pushes for total top dollar.
Who can afford 13mil per, and for how long!
That's almost double Gaborik's salary!!

But in NYR case it would just be a matter of moving enough contracts to do that.
You would think TBL would do the same.
Presumably they can.

But maybe they can't --- LeCavalier? (he's roughly 10m per several years still, right?).
There maybe some internal restriction; maybe not.

I thought I did infer clearly this is a fallback only if Lightning can't meet his demands.

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07-13-2011, 08:27 PM
  #200
Swept In Seven
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Forgive me, wolfie, it' been a hard day's night.

I'm not sure I understand you (your question). The "they" you refer to is Tampa.

I agree, fully, if there is anyway TB can keep Stamkos they will.
I have no inside scoop (and never claimed to) as to what Lightning can swing.

I fully expect 'high but normal #s' --- 7, 8 mil to be met. Easily.
Not so easy is the higher you go.
9, 10 mil maybe.

More, if Stamkos pushes for total top dollar.
Who can afford 13mil per, and for how long!
That's almost double Gaborik's salary!!

But in NYR case it would just be a matter of moving enough contracts to do that.
You would think TBL would do the same.
Presumably they can.

But maybe they can't --- LeCavalier? (he's roughly 10m per several years still, right?).
There maybe some internal restriction; maybe not.

I thought I did infer clearly this is a fallback only if Lightning can't meet his demands.
He is a Restricted Free Agent, and there is no way that he is going to be getting 12.8 million per year. He is going to get anywhere between 6-8 million per, probably for 4-6 years so he will either be arbitration eligible or a UFA.

I will tell you one thing, Yzerman wants to keep it shorter than 6 years because if Stamkos hits the wire as a UFA in his prime, he is going to get one of those pretty little lifetime contracts worth 100 million by some other team

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