HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Doughty vs. Subban

View Poll Results: Doughty or Subban
Doughty 267 62.38%
Subban 161 37.62%
Voters: 428. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-13-2011, 11:18 AM
  #151
Mathradio
Go Roy Munson!
 
Mathradio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,492
vCash: 500
Sure, there is the drive, there is conditioning that plays a factor on who will have a better future, and it is also quite hard to predict when will a player have injuries or breakout seasons.

Mathradio is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 03:51 PM
  #152
LordRamsay
Come out and flay
 
LordRamsay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: 905
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,278
vCash: 588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stasis View Post
I stumble through from time to time partially because I live in Montreal, but mostly just for threads like these.

This is hilariously awesome. Carry on.
That's pretty rich considering you have people on your forum saying they wouldn't trade Tyler Myers for Stamkos straight up.

LordRamsay is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 04:38 PM
  #153
THE HOFF
Registered User
 
THE HOFF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,167
vCash: 500
I voted subban. the reason ? simple. He'd be the only one in that matchup with the balls to skate up the other player and go '' hey drew, you know I'm better than you, right ? ''

THE HOFF is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 04:43 PM
  #154
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calif via Montreal
Posts: 11,462
vCash: 500
I think the conditioning rap against Doughty is bull. He was injured last year, that's all.

Doughty has superior vision, but PK is a strong passer as well. I don't think PK moves with the puck/finds seams/or is as creative a passer as Doughty in the offensive zone. But he's not shabby either.

As for the other end, give me PK any day of the week.

I'll say it again, both guys are gonna be on Team Canada and PK will be mentioned for the Norris during his career. I have no doubts. Especially if he's splitting tough minutes with Markov. That might free him up to put up more points.


Last edited by tinyzombies: 07-13-2011 at 04:48 PM.
tinyzombies is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 04:57 PM
  #155
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
I think the conditioning rap against Doughty is bull. He was injured last year, that's all.

Doughty has superior vision, but PK is a strong passer as well. I don't think PK moves with the puck/finds seams/or is as creative a passer as Doughty in the offensive zone. But he's not shabby either.

As for the other end, give me PK any day of the week.

I'll say it again, both guys are gonna be on Team Canada and PK will be mentioned for the Norris during his career. I have no doubts. Especially if he's splitting tough minutes with Markov. That might free him up to put up more points.
I don't think Doughty has superior vision. He has better passing skills (more precise) but the vision seems on par. Subban can cut through the middle zone like no other, and on a constant basis. You need extremely good hockey vision to do that (and his speed and stickhandling). Same hockey vision that makes PK so good in the D zone when he can easily predict where players will go.

Both are extremely talented, but offer little differences from one category to the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great One View Post
I think you overlooked the fact that i did mention that it's too early to say who will be better. My argument is that from what we've seen thus far it just don't make much sense to say that Subban will be the better defenceman. We can all make a guess and say that we believe Subban will be better, and i'm ok with that but i'm just saying that there's no logical evidence to back up this prediction.Many people in this room have followed Subban since day 1 and i understand how they can be biased in their opinion, but from alot of the comments i've read, it just seems like they haven't watched much of Doughty and are just basing their opinions on what they've seen from Subban. The only explantions i've seen so far that Subban will be better is that Doughty is out of shape, and has drug and alcohol problems. I don't agree with these statements and think they're BS because if it were true or severe enough to damper his development then i'm sure the Kings would have dealt with the situation before now.

Look, i'm not a Subban hater like alot of other posters on these boards. I get frustrated with his antics at times, but i can see past that and see that this kid will be a great player in this league for many years. I just think it's too early to compare these players because of all Doughty has proven in this league so far. It's almost like comparing Seguin to Stamkos. Stamkos and Doughty have been in the league long enough to establish themselves as elite players whereas Seguin and Subban are just getting started and are just not in the same league as Doughty and Stamkos at this point in their careers.
And yet I ended right about him when people questioned if he was ready in 09-10, and that he'd be ready for 1st pairing in his rookie season, which he did.

Context and circumstances are the things that seperate DD and Subban. Not sure DD would've accomplished so much offensively if he were trusted into #1 spot in Montreal like he did in his sophomore season in LA. And not sure PK would've improved so much defensively if he went through the Kings development system, but might've been an offensive juggernaut playing with LA's top 6. I look at the overall talent, all the tools they have, and the difference is too small to say that one is definetly better. Accomplishments are directly related with the player's circumstances, and that's why, unlike most people, I don't subscribe to the cult of great men who get put on a pedestal, where a single accomplishment (especially in a team sport) thrumps consistency and overall individual play and what you can see with your own eyes, on the ice, in the action.

The difference between the best and 100th best player in the league is so much smaller than it was 20 years ago, but people still abide to the same mentality. Where the best player is seen like a Lemieux or a Bourque compared to a Muller or a Desjardins. The gap is much much smaller than this, and that is why anytime a player does a great season now, they are erected on a pedestal, because it now is the new yarstick as the stats are so small in difference. But accomplishments is a simplistic yardstick for this day and age. I rather look at what I said before.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-13-2011 at 06:18 PM. Reason: merged
Ozymandias is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 06:37 PM
  #156
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,980
vCash: 500
Doughty struggles in LA
PK thrives in Montreal

And when I say Doughty struggles.. I mean he doesn't achieve his full potential in a market where he has little pressure from fans/medias.

And PK thrives in circumstance much harder.

It's not that easy to find players who can blossom in this environment we're in.

And while Doughty has accomplished more, this is fairly irrelevant in what both will accomplish in the future.

Give me PK.

E = CH² is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 08:32 PM
  #157
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Doughty struggles in LA
PK thrives in Montreal

And when I say Doughty struggles.. I mean he doesn't achieve his full potential in a market where he has little pressure from fans/medias.

And PK thrives in circumstance much harder.

It's not that easy to find players who can blossom in this environment we're in.

And while Doughty has accomplished more, this is fairly irrelevant in what both will accomplish in the future.

Give me PK.
I don't know what you mean by the boldfaced statement but I find reason to take exception to it. I think Hab fans are so desperate for heroes that they're inflating PK's stature. If the Habs had DD instead they'd be puffing him up too. PK may be an exceptionally talented player but he does make mistakes and I can't overlook the difference in age between PK and DD.

Teufelsdreck is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 08:34 PM
  #158
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,033
vCash: 500
I'd love to add a Doughty, but I wouldn't swap him for PK. He may be ahead right now but I still believe PK in the long run will be better(I know I'm crazy)

Habs 4 Life is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 08:58 PM
  #159
kovatroll*
David Clarkson ✘👎
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Middle of nowhere
Country: United States
Posts: 1,766
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFpineapple View Post
Interesting about this faceoff is that Toronto is among the teams not represented...



There is one player per team... Stamkos is there.
Wrong, both Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews are there.

And I'd pick Doughty, because he's better over all, and has more discipline even though he's younger.

kovatroll* is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 09:15 PM
  #160
Thinkbig
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,366
vCash: 500
Doughty = Another overrated player that we don't see play very often.

Imagine if Subban would be playing in a marketplace like St-Louis, we would all be comparing Subban to Crosby.

Thinkbig is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 09:16 PM
  #161
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I don't know what you mean by the boldfaced statement but I find reason to take exception to it. I think Hab fans are so desperate for heroes that they're inflating PK's stature. If the Habs had DD instead they'd be puffing him up too. PK may be an exceptionally talented player but he does make mistakes and I can't overlook the difference in age between PK and DD.
Doughty also makes mistakes and they are 6 months apart in age. Their individual acheivements are based on different circumstances.

DD didn't do what PK did in the playoffs and that is highly overlooked....

Folks said the same thing as your bolded part last season when I said (09-10) he was ready for the top 4 in Montreal, said the same thing when I said PK was ready for top pairing duty...

Some Habs fans have been so deprived of talent and success that they are overly pessimistic and try to lower down expectations....

I've watched both play a lot. There isn't much difference in overall talent. There is a difference in style of play and mental makeup.

Ozymandias is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 09:26 PM
  #162
Protest the Hero
Registered User
 
Protest the Hero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkbig View Post
Doughty = Another overrated player that we don't see play very often.

Imagine if Subban would be playing in a marketplace like St-Louis, we would all be comparing Subban to Crosby.
I'd hardly call Doughty overrated, I think the fact that he's so good makes his play look lazy at times. Imagine how good he'd be if he had the same drive as Subban though.

Protest the Hero is offline  
Old
07-13-2011, 09:42 PM
  #163
JohnLennon
Registered User
 
JohnLennon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,943
vCash: 500
324 votes so far is pretty impressive for a poll that was put up yesterday. Habs fans have quite a presence on this board. That, and the fans of other teams that lurk the Habs board and secretly love them.

JohnLennon is online now  
Old
07-13-2011, 10:21 PM
  #164
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,871
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Doughty struggles in LA
PK thrives in Montreal

And when I say Doughty struggles.. I mean he doesn't achieve his full potential in a market where he has little pressure from fans/medias.

And PK thrives in circumstance much harder.

It's not that easy to find players who can blossom in this environment we're in.

And while Doughty has accomplished more, this is fairly irrelevant in what both will accomplish in the future.

Give me PK.
Doughty was absolutely incredible in the Olympics, I'd say he's proven that he can play under pressure. If you pick PK that's fine, but you don't need to downplay Doughty to justify it. Doughty is an outstanding defenseman right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkbig View Post
Doughty = Another overrated player that we don't see play very often.

Imagine if Subban would be playing in a marketplace like St-Louis, we would all be comparing Subban to Crosby.
I don't think he's overrated at all. He had injury problems but he's looked great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Doughty also makes mistakes and they are 6 months apart in age. Their individual acheivements are based on different circumstances.
Subban made rookie mistakes that Doughty wouldn't. He'll improve over time but let's not kid ourselves here. Right now DD is the better guy, bar none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
DD didn't do what PK did in the playoffs and that is highly overlooked....
Doughty more than made up for it in the Olympics on the world stage. PK played one series and we lost. Sure he played great, but Doughty is younger and has more experience behind him. You're going overboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Folks said the same thing as your bolded part last season when I said (09-10) he was ready for the top 4 in Montreal, said the same thing when I said PK was ready for top pairing duty...

Some Habs fans have been so deprived of talent and success that they are overly pessimistic and try to lower down expectations....

I've watched both play a lot. There isn't much difference in overall talent. There is a difference in style of play and mental makeup.
I think PK will be great too. Hopefully that turns out to be the case. If he's even close to Doughty I'll be thrilled. I actually think he'll be better offensively.

Lafleurs Guy is online now  
Old
07-14-2011, 01:02 AM
  #165
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calif via Montreal
Posts: 11,462
vCash: 500
Vision=passing, not anticipation.

I think you could compare Doughty's creative passing to Markov's, except that Markov is a much safer passer. Doughty takes big risks both offensively AND defensively.

I would take PK over him. If PK were allowed to cut loose on offense, he would put up big numbers.

For a young defenseman to acquire the discipline that PK did so suddenly shows maturity as well. Doughty was hurt. I don't know how many times it has to be said. We'll see what he's made of this year if he's healthy. I think he has to shore up his positional play big time and calm down with his first pass and stop being so fancy with it.

For people to take Doughty over PK 2 to 1 is not so surprising to me becasue of the media. But I've seen plenty of Doughty since living in LA and I can tell you I'd rather have PK. Imagine Doughty one on one against Lucic?

tinyzombies is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 01:14 AM
  #166
Habs
Registered User
 
Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,293
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkbig View Post
Doughty = Another overrated player that we don't see play very often.

Imagine if Subban would be playing in a marketplace like St-Louis, we would all be comparing Subban to Crosby.
Thats why we got Eller, because he's going to be better than Crosby.

Habs is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 03:03 AM
  #167
Nine to Five
Now Eight to Four!
 
Nine to Five's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Thats why we got Eller, because he's going to be better than Crosby.
Why are you even comparing the two?
Crosby only wishes he can one day be compared to a Habs player.

130 or so of you have got to be kidding yourselves. Talk about blinding yourself with homerism, this is just awful to see.
Unless this a poll that leaf or bruin fans mass voted in to make hab fans look bad.

Nine to Five is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 08:27 AM
  #168
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine to Five View Post
130 or so of you have got to be kidding yourselves. Talk about blinding yourself with homerism, this is just awful to see.
Unless this a poll that leaf or bruin fans mass voted in to make hab fans look bad.
I think the poll is approximately even if you filter out non-Habs fans. It's only the intrusion of non-Habs fans that have allowed Doughty to take the lead.

And it's perfectly acceptable... even desirable, laudable... for us to vote for Subban, IMHO. Why shouldn't we be loyal to the player we've come to love? I wouldn't trade Subban for any other defenseman in the league. I don't think that means we blindly believe he's better than them. Everybody knows Doughty is better. We just like Subban more.

Blind Gardien is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 08:42 AM
  #169
SB164
Registered User
 
SB164's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Doughty more than made up for it in the Olympics on the world stage. PK played one series and we lost. Sure he played great, but Doughty is younger and has more experience behind him. You're going overboard.

I think PK will be great too. Hopefully that turns out to be the case. If he's even close to Doughty I'll be thrilled. I actually think he'll be better offensively.
In case you forgot, after playing his first two NHL games in 09-10 regular season, PK played 14 games in the playoffs, notching 8 points, helping the Habs beat the Caps and the Pens. In fact, speaking of experience - unlike DD - Subban has actually been past the first round of the playoffs.

SB164 is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 10:19 AM
  #170
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,282
vCash: 50
I wouldn't swap pk for doughty but if we drafted doughty and they got pk. I still wouldn't swap. Doughty IS better but I'd stick to what we know.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 10:29 AM
  #171
Le Tricolore
Boo! Booooo!
 
Le Tricolore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 27,606
vCash: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I wouldn't swap pk for doughty but if we drafted doughty and they got pk. I still wouldn't swap. Doughty IS better but I'd stick to what we know.
I'd have to agree with this, 100%.

Le Tricolore is online now  
Old
07-14-2011, 10:53 AM
  #172
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

Subban made rookie mistakes that Doughty wouldn't. He'll improve over time but let's not kid ourselves here. Right now DD is the better guy, bar none.
You didn't watch DD in his rookie season like I did then. No matter if he came in the league a year earlier (matter of circumstances), DD took a whole year to adapt, made a lot of mistakes. He's made way more mistakes this year than PK did. The only season where DD was close to mistake-free, was his sophomore season, that's one out of three. Here's a novel idea, buy NHL network, so next time you won't be talking out of where the sun don't shine. Let's not kid ourselves, as per usual, you don't know what you're talking about, and the next part proves it even better.


Quote:
Doughty more than made up for it in the Olympics on the world stage. PK played one series and we lost. Sure he played great, but Doughty is younger and has more experience behind him. You're going overboard.
Now do you care explaining to me howcome Subban played only one playoff series, yet has 21 games under his belt, and was instrumental in shuting down Crosby and Malkin... was instrumental in game 7 against the Caps, tied the game to force the OT in the game 7 against the Ruins this year...

Like I said before, their accomplishments are a matter of circumstances, but why would I even bother debating this with you when you are exactly the type of person I described before in this thread. You abide to the old mentality (you even show signs of cognitive dissonance as to you Norris nomination = pedestal, so then you blind yourself from facts like the ones I'm just saying, without even knowing if what you're saying is the truth, you say it anyway IE DD flawless, Subban played only one playoff round), and since you don't have much in terms of hockey analytical skills, all you're able to do is look at stats and look at accomplishments that are situational and based on a set of circumstances and then you ASSUME the rest.

Going overboard? I'd say you're blinded from the truth.


I look at the two men, and everything they CAN do, and everything they DID, and what their skillset can bring, and what their mental makeup is, what their drive is, and DD has nothing on PK.

**Now, people should expect you to either go out of context, ignoring these arguments, or make it about something else, as it is your usual MO, the opposite would surprise me**


... oh,... and I fully assume all the hurtful things I just said to you. I meant them. Feel free to use that as a typical pathetic excuse to avoid talking about your mistakes and lack of discernment.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-14-2011 at 11:16 AM.
Ozymandias is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 11:44 AM
  #173
Player 61
#Winning
 
Player 61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,159
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Player 61
No chance for Subban, Doughty's got over 77% of the TSN vote.

Franchise Faceoff:
http://www.tsn.ca/franchisefaceoff/

Player 61 is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 01:50 PM
  #174
nyhabsfan
Waiting for #25.....
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Connecticut
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,844
vCash: 500
Let's just sign Doughty to an offer sheet so only one can be in the pole...can you image if we could actually get him on an offer sheet.

Gomez --Minors $7.3

PK --Doughty
Georges--Markov
Weber--Gill
Emelin

Dear God... please!

nyhabsfan is offline  
Old
07-14-2011, 02:12 PM
  #175
KingKovy
Registered User
 
KingKovy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 216
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I wouldn't swap pk for doughty but if we drafted doughty and they got pk. I still wouldn't swap. Doughty IS better but I'd stick to what we know.
I 100% agree. Even though DD was my favorite player on team Canada.. I can't wait for both of them to be on!

KingKovy is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.