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Old
07-14-2011, 11:09 AM
  #26
JeffMangum
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Originally Posted by freewheeler View Post
They just lost Huselius, and was not Tyutin benched for large stretches last year?
He played in 80 games, logging over 22+ minutes on average.

I don't see why CBJ would trade him; he's on a relatively cheap contract, and is pretty versatile.

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07-14-2011, 11:15 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Hell no! prospal is old and cant skate PERIOD! i dont care what he did for the final 29games of the season. Until he can stay healthy and put up pts for the ENTIRE season then he needs to stay away. The guy completley fell apart in the playoffs and cant keep up with the pace of the nhl. Hes like Brendan Shannahan. Everyone loves him but he just cant play in the nhl anymore. I dont have much of a problem if he comes back for cheap and can come in and play once in awhile but to rely on him to be healthy all year is a god awful idea.

I dont see us sigining a vet defender as our 5-7dman and therefor saving 1.5m on the cap. So we would be about alittle more than 2m under the cap. Which by the trade deadline will allow us to add up to 4m in cap in a trade. There is no reason at all to get rid of wolski for garbage. Thats ****** asset management.

By the way who cares what his QO is.. He is a stop gap for this season until Krieder and Thomas are ready to come in, which sounds like it will be next year. If we dont want him next year we dont have to keep him. Everyone makes his contract out to be so horrible but yet its only for 1 year.

Id rather stick with the youth and see what we have and who fits to be able to make a trade for a top 6 player and so forth.
Unlike Wolski, Prospal actually fits on this team, and encompasses what Torts will actually utilize. I strongly disagree about the characterization that he "fell apart" in the playoffs or can't keep up in the NHL.

As you pointed out, in the 29 games he played last year, Prospal put up 23 points. In the 37 games Wolski played with the Rangers, he put up only 19 points.

As a 1 year stopgap, Prospal makes a lot more sense than Wolski, because even though he's slow and old, Torts will actually play him in the top 6 -- because Prospal will actually compete.

EDIT: Believe me, nothing would make me happier than Wolski approaching the game with a new attitude next year. However, I keenly remember our playoff series, where in a 1 goal game, Wolski decides to stop moving his legs despite a 3-4 stride lead on a defenseman racing for an icing. We don't get scored against on that icing, but that's the kind of thing that will see Wolski remain on the outside looking in when Torts is divvying up icetime, even if Wolski is more talented than those he's competing with.

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07-14-2011, 11:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
The issue with Wolski isn't points. It's everything else. Even if he goes out there and puts up the points, he's shown that he's not willing to battle (even in the playoffs, in close games). Torts will not stand for that, and Wolski will find himself relegated to low minutes or even being the healthy scratch.

Unless you believe that Wolski is going to approach the game with a new attitude next season, I don't see how you could think that he's actually going to get prime ice time. And, if he's not going to get prime ice time, his value is significantly diminished, because he won't even be putting up points.

While you aren't likely going to find a long-term solution via the current UFA or trade market, I think it's unlikely that Wolski is a long term solution either (due to his qualifier and willingness to compete). Therefore, if you're comparing Wolski for a year vs. Prospal for a year, Prospal makes a lot more sense as a stopgap until Kreider, etc. are ready.
I personally dont agree with that and if you read what i wrote, i am talking about how he seems to be revamping his game and his attitude towards the game. When was the last time you heard about Wolski seeking help for his game or anything? Exactly. Im saying that since befriending Boyle and Prust and so forth, it seems like they were able to show the light to Wolski and get through to him about what he needs to do to be successful just like Brian Boyle did last year. And it is about pts right now because we need players who can put the puck in the net.

I think he will get prime ice-time, either next to Richards/gabby, Ani/Cally, or Stepan/whoever. As long as he is put with offensive players he will be good. Dont really know what you mean by his battle worthyness in the playoffs, he was our leading scorer and played very well with Boyle and Prust.

I dont believe Prospal is a solution at all. The guy was injured all year. Of course in the final 29games he will play extremly well. its because the guy has been resting ALL SEASON LONG. Even in those 29 games we saw that he though he was producing, he wasnt able to keep up with the play on the ice. He is to slow, has no battle against the boards, easy to knock off the puck and so forth. I love the guy and how he has heart but id MUCH rather take a chance on a 25yo 50pt winger who seems to have found a home here and a brand new attitude on what he needs to do to be successfull in the NHL. Thats just my take and during next season we will find out either way.

But honestly there is NO desire to give Wolski up for nothing but **** just to clear capspace for what? There is no1 else out there that has the potential that Wolski has. He will most likely be gone next year anyway and the capspace will be clear. Give the guy a chance before you write him off. We all did that to Boyle and NOW look at him.

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07-14-2011, 11:19 AM
  #29
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I'd love to have Tyutin back on the Rangers. But Columbus doesn't seem willing to trade him.

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07-14-2011, 11:20 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Unlike Wolski, Prospal actually fits on this team, and encompasses what Torts will actually utilize. I strongly disagree about the characterization that he "fell apart" in the playoffs or can't keep up in the NHL.

As you pointed out, in the 29 games he played last year, Prospal put up 23 points. In the 37 games Wolski played with the Rangers, he put up only 19 points.

As a 1 year stopgap, Prospal makes a lot more sense than Wolski, because even though he's slow and old, Torts will actually play him in the top 6 -- because Prospal will actually compete.
Wolski is the same age as the core of this team. He has as much talent as any of them as well. I don't see at all how the aging Prospal is a better fit than 25 year old Wolski.

Everyone talking about Torts distaste for Wolski remember he had Boyle sent to HDF already in his mind before camp. Players make the coaches change their minds so stop with the Torts will never play him stuff. Wolski comes in and produces I don't see why Torts wouldn't play him.

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07-14-2011, 11:20 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Im on the complete polar opposite of alot of fans on here about Wolski. The kid had one bad season when he normally puts up 45-50pts. Which is 2nd line material. During the season he WASNT used correctly. He was put with gabby for about a couple periods a game but that was it. The only other times he was used right was with Zucca and Stepan when he had 12pts in 18games, then in the playoffs when he was put with Prust and Boyle. The guy is extremley skilled offensively and NEEDS to be put in that situation to succeed. Id personally love to see what he can do this year, rather than giving up on him after half a season and selling him off for prospects/picks that wont help us as much as Wolski.

.....
Why not bring back Zherdev then? More skilled, just as inconsistent and useless away from the puck. There's more to a player than points. My problem is WW is similar to that of Zherdev. He makes poor decisions, has a marginal work ethic, doesn't show every night, is very one dimensional, etc. I'd rather not have someone like that in my top 6 playing alongside superstars like Gaborik and Richards. What does he bring them? Give me Prospal, Feds, even MZA, if my alternative is WW. Luckily, he seems to have some trade value, especially being in his final year. So hopefully Sather can swing something. Otherwise his value will just erode as Torts slowly picks him apart.

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07-14-2011, 11:22 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I personally dont agree with that and if you read what i wrote, i am talking about how he seems to be revamping his game and his attitude towards the game. When was the last time you heard about Wolski seeking help for his game or anything? Exactly. Im saying that since befriending Boyle and Prust and so forth, it seems like they were able to show the light to Wolski and get through to him about what he needs to do to be successful just like Brian Boyle did last year. And it is about pts right now because we need players who can put the puck in the net.

I think he will get prime ice-time, either next to Richards/gabby, Ani/Cally, or Stepan/whoever. As long as he is put with offensive players he will be good. Dont really know what you mean by his battle worthyness in the playoffs, he was our leading scorer and played very well with Boyle and Prust.

I dont believe Prospal is a solution at all. The guy was injured all year. Of course in the final 29games he will play extremly well. its because the guy has been resting ALL SEASON LONG. Even in those 29 games we saw that he though he was producing, he wasnt able to keep up with the play on the ice. He is to slow, has no battle against the boards, easy to knock off the puck and so forth. I love the guy and how he has heart but id MUCH rather take a chance on a 25yo 50pt winger who seems to have found a home here and a brand new attitude on what he needs to do to be successfull in the NHL. Thats just my take and during next season we will find out either way.

But honestly there is NO desire to give Wolski up for nothing but **** just to clear capspace for what? There is no1 else out there that has the potential that Wolski has. He will most likely be gone next year anyway and the capspace will be clear. Give the guy a chance before you write him off. We all did that to Boyle and NOW look at him.
I never wrote off Boyle. In fact, last offseason I vehemently opposed those who were writing him off. Because although he was ineffective, Boyle showed compete in his first season with the Rangers. As a 4th liner with a 500k cap hit, Boyle served a role even simply as a penalty killer.

That's not true with Wolski. I have not seen any willingness to win puck battles, etc. The icing situation is the most prevalent example that I can recall off hand. It was especially frustrating, because prior to that it looked like maybe him being the healthy scratch got to him and he would put forth an honest effort.

In your view, Prospal may be physically unable to compete. I disagree. In my view, Wolski's mental unwillingness to compete is a much bigger issue, because Torts has already shown that he will not give players that engage in that behavior ice time.

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07-14-2011, 11:23 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by freewheeler View Post
Why not bring back Zherdev then? More skilled, just as inconsistent and useless away from the puck. There's more to a player than points. My problem is WW is similar to that of Zherdev. He makes poor decisions, has a marginal work ethic, doesn't show every night, is very one dimensional, etc. I'd rather not have someone like that in my top 6 playing alongside superstars like Gaborik and Richards. What does he bring them? Give me Prospal, Feds, even MZA, if my alternative is WW. Luckily, he seems to have some trade value, especially being in his final year. So hopefully Sather can swing something. Otherwise his value will just erode as Torts slowly picks him apart.
I think Zherdev is a perfect comparison for Wolski. It takes more than just talent to succeed -- especially under Torts.

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07-14-2011, 11:24 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Unlike Wolski, Prospal actually fits on this team, and encompasses what Torts will actually utilize. I strongly disagree about the characterization that he "fell apart" in the playoffs or can't keep up in the NHL.

As you pointed out, in the 29 games he played last year, Prospal put up 23 points. In the 37 games Wolski played with the Rangers, he put up only 19 points.

As a 1 year stopgap, Prospal makes a lot more sense than Wolski, because even though he's slow and old, Torts will actually play him in the top 6 -- because Prospal will actually compete.

EDIT: Believe me, nothing would make me happier than Wolski approaching the game with a new attitude next year. However, I keenly remember our playoff series, where in a 1 goal game, Wolski decides to stop moving his legs despite a 3-4 stride lead on a defenseman racing for an icing. We don't get scored against on that icing, but that's the kind of thing that will see Wolski remain on the outside looking in when Torts is divvying up icetime, even if Wolski is more talented than those he's competing with.
Look i get what your saying but you also have to put into account that any player who has NOT played all season long just to come back at that time in the season is going to have ALOT in the tank compared to other players. But even at that time he could NOT keep up with the play and yes i agree he has tons of heart but nothing else anymore. I dont mind bringing him back and keeping Wolski but i have no interest in giving up on Wolski yet till after this season or just before the trade deadline. I dont believe Prospal is the answer since the guy CAN NOT stay healthy for a long period of time, he is breaking down.

lol i get the pts part but when your Wolski and you arent put in a chance to succeed for HALF those games then what will your pts totals look like? When he was put on a line where he can use his offensive abilities with other offensive players he was able to pot 12pts in 18games with 2 ROOKIES in Stepan and Zucca. i get what your saying about Prospal's compete level and dont mind bringin him back for insurance purposes but im not interested in giving up on Wolski for Prospal. I see a new attitude in him at the end of the season and this offseason and am wililng to see what he can do with that and a full training camp under torts.

Lol in the playoffs Wolski was our leading scorer and no offense but talking about that type of play then we should get rid of Gaborik for ****ING us over in the playoffs then.. Wolski had a huge lead on the ice against the washington player and was coasting for an icing. Sorry to say but MOST nhl players do that when they have time to get the puck. There are a number of factors as to why he was gliding to the puck for an ICING call lol.

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07-14-2011, 11:28 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
I think Zherdev is a perfect comparison for Wolski. It takes more than just talent to succeed -- especially under Torts.
I think Zherdev and Wolski are TERRIBLE comparisons for RIGHT NOW. yes in previous years i would agree. But to me i honestly see a different person now than before with Wolski. I have no issue giving him another chance. When have you ever seen or heard about Zherdev getting outside help for his game or for that matter Wolski? Wolski has taken it upon himself to get help and that to me shows that he has a different mind set now and a new understanding of what he must to do play for torts and succeed in the nhl. Thats my perspective on him now. And will see in the next season what happens.

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07-14-2011, 11:30 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Look i get what your saying but you also have to put into account that any player who has NOT played all season long just to come back at that time in the season is going to have ALOT in the tank compared to other players. But even at that time he could NOT keep up with the play and yes i agree he has tons of heart but nothing else anymore. I dont mind bringing him back and keeping Wolski but i have no interest in giving up on Wolski yet till after this season or just before the trade deadline. I dont believe Prospal is the answer since the guy CAN NOT stay healthy for a long period of time, he is breaking down.

lol i get the pts part but when your Wolski and you arent put in a chance to succeed for HALF those games then what will your pts totals look like? When he was put on a line where he can use his offensive abilities with other offensive players he was able to pot 12pts in 18games with 2 ROOKIES in Stepan and Zucca. i get what your saying about Prospal's compete level and dont mind bringin him back for insurance purposes but im not interested in giving up on Wolski for Prospal. I see a new attitude in him at the end of the season and this offseason and am wililng to see what he can do with that and a full training camp under torts.

Lol in the playoffs Wolski was our leading scorer and no offense but talking about that type of play then we should get rid of Gaborik for ****ING us over in the playoffs then.. Wolski had a huge lead on the ice against the washington player and was coasting for an icing. Sorry to say but MOST nhl players do that when they have time to get the puck. There are a number of factors as to why he was gliding to the puck for an ICING call lol.
If you're going to treat it as a negative that Prospal came back "fresh", I think you also need to treat it as a positive that he was coming back from a significant injury. At best, I'd say that's a wash. Even if you're in the best of physical conditioning, it isn't easy stepping back into the game after an injury.

Regarding Wolski being our "leading scorer" in the playoffs, I don't consider a goal and two assists in give games as something laud him for, considering how awful he was at everything other than putting up those not-overly-impressive points.

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07-14-2011, 11:32 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I think Zherdev and Wolski are TERRIBLE comparisons for RIGHT NOW. yes in previous years i would agree. But to me i honestly see a different person now than before with Wolski. I have no issue giving him another chance. When have you ever seen or heard about Zherdev getting outside help for his game or for that matter Wolski? Wolski has taken it upon himself to get help and that to me shows that he has a different mind set now and a new understanding of what he must to do play for torts and succeed in the nhl. Thats my perspective on him now. And will see in the next season what happens.
Are you under the impression that hockey players don't train in the offseason?

Just because Wolski decided to train with Boyle does not mean he is going to some extraordinary lengths to make himself better. Every single NHLer trains over the offseason. Some with private trainers, some collectively, some with Gary Roberts, etc.

Just because he's training with Underhill does not scream "extraordinary effort." In fact, a majority of our team has worked with Underhill.

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07-14-2011, 11:37 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
If you're going to treat it as a negative that Prospal came back "fresh", I think you also need to treat it as a positive that he was coming back from a significant injury. At best, I'd say that's a wash. Even if you're in the best of physical conditioning, it isn't easy stepping back into the game after an injury.

Regarding Wolski being our "leading scorer" in the playoffs, I don't consider a goal and two assists in give games as something laud him for, considering how awful he was at everything other than putting up those not-overly-impressive points.
okay fair enough about only playing 29games but still goes to show that Prospal can NOT stay healthy for a full season. So you want to bring prospal back to play another 40 or so games and NOT have a replacement for him or Wolski for the top 6? I have no problem signing and having BOTH players, but in no way in hell am i down for trading wolski for nothing and signing prospal when he wont be ablt to play a full season.

lol oh come on! the whole team played poorly in the playoffs, you singling out wolski just seems like hatred for just him rather than how the entire team performed. But you really cant take away the fact that he was still our leading scorer in the playoffs.

But like i just said earlier, i see a different person now with wolski than i do before. If he wasnt seeking outside help from Underhill and others in order to improve his game and everything else i would agree with you and say send him packing. But anyone who notices their faults and goes themselves to work on those faults and ask for help to make them better shows the willingness that he wants to be better, wants to be here, wants to play hard, and wants to win. I think thats a big indicator as to show that he seems to have changed

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07-14-2011, 11:38 AM
  #39
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If Wolski and Zherdev is a good comparison, does that mean without Wolski the Rangers end up with the equivalent of Kotalik?

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07-14-2011, 11:45 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Are you under the impression that hockey players don't train in the offseason?

Just because Wolski decided to train with Boyle does not mean he is going to some extraordinary lengths to make himself better. Every single NHLer trains over the offseason. Some with private trainers, some collectively, some with Gary Roberts, etc.

Just because he's training with Underhill does not scream "extraordinary effort." In fact, a majority of our team has worked with Underhill.
ha AZROK, i used to play hockey and i know what its like to train in the offseason and basically every day. I know ALL hockey players and ANY professional athlete trains nonstop. Dont try to be a dick about me stating that this is different than hockey players doing normal offseason training. We are simply having a disagreement

Im under the impression that Wolski and players like him (Zherdev) dont ask for help because they feel that they have all the skill in the world and can do everything on their own. Yes ALL players train in the offseason in every sport, but what your failing to see physcologically is that this is not just training, this is going out and seeking help. It shows that he seems to have finally opened his eyes to what he needs to do to be successful in the nhl. If you know about psychology you can better understand what im talking about with a persons mind set. Since im at work i really dont have time to go over it.

because hes working with Underhill under his own willingness then yes it does scream extra effort on his part. I dont think you get that even tho the ranger players work with underhill, they still arent OBLIGATED to do so. I see the work ethic and the close knit family of our team is rubbing off on Wolski and i personally see him as going to be a different player this next season. But well just have to wait and see who is right. I was right about Boyle last year, lets see about this year.

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07-14-2011, 11:48 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Wolski has taken it upon himself to get help and that to me shows that he has a different mind set now and a new understanding of what he must to do play for torts and succeed in the nhl. Thats my perspective on him now. And will see in the next season what happens.
How much does the prospect of a new contract play into that? He'll be 26 and coming off a contract he may not duplicate.

Sorry to sound so morose, but like some others here, I really feel he's not a good fit for this team. He scored 50 points as a 20 year old. Statistically, he's marginally improved from there. Watching him, I can understand why.

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07-14-2011, 11:54 AM
  #42
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How much does the prospect of a new contract play into that? He'll be 26 and coming off a contract he may not duplicate.

Sorry to sound so morose, but like some others here, I really feel he's not a good fit for this team. He scored 50 points as a 20 year old. Statistically, he's marginally improved from there. Watching him, I can understand why.
Well the prospect of a new contract would HELP him more since you have to assume that he will compete harder as well.

Dont be we all have different opinions and foresight into the future about players and basically everything. Yea you can say he may not fit into this team last year, but i have a feeling about how he is taking this offseason that he will fit better next season. What i dont get is why people wont give him a chance, he is only signed for one more year and there is NO1 out there who would be better than him. Plus i for one am in no rush to trade players and prosects that we have yet to really get a handle on who and what they may become in order to find a replacement.

Im all for giving the kid a chance/

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07-14-2011, 12:13 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Personally, if you can get anything of value for Wolski, I move him and re-sign Prospal. Not only does Wolski not seem to fit on our roster, but with a $4m qualifier, even a halfway-decent season out of him will probably see him reach UFA, because we won't be qualifying him.

Move him for something, and bring back Prospal. Then, alternate Prospal and Fedotenko on the Richards - Gaborik line as Torts sees fit to keep Prospal fresh for the playoffs.

Prospal/Fedotenko - Richards - Gaborik
Dubinsky - Anisimov - Callahan
Fedotenko/Prospal - Stepan - Zuccarello
Rupp - Boyle - Prust
Avery/Christensen

[EDIT: Assuming no rookies make it -- if any show they are readying you can adjust accordingly]

Prospal's wheels may be falling off, but he showed that he is still capable of putting up very good numbers and showing up when it counts.

You then have significant cap space to pursue a LW during the season or via UFA next year.
See, I don't think it needs to be an either/or with Prospal and Wolski. Prospal costs nothing more than a minimal cap hit, with a potentially excellent reward. Wolski's cap hit is obviusly bigger, but he, too has the potential for a good reward if he has a good season. Neither contracts are prohibitive in terms of allowing us to accomplish anything--and if the cost for either or both DOES stand in the way of a move being made, they'll both be easy to make disappear.

I'd prefer to sign Prospal today, and have him in our back pocket. Let he and Wolski battle it out when the season starts. If Wolski loses out, you either scratch him or waive him. If there's a good move to be made before the summer ends, you ship Wolski out. We can fit both under the cap, no problem. Stockpile potential NHL assets, and then move them around when the picture becomes more clear.

I don't see us getting more than a C-level prospect for Wolski at this point. He'll probably become more valuable during camp or the early part of the season, as teams lose players to injury. I don't see the need to move him now.

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07-14-2011, 12:20 PM
  #44
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Isn't this a contract year for Wolski? If so, I'd rather see if he's motivated.

If I'm wrong here, ignore this post.

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07-14-2011, 12:21 PM
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nyr2k2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LamoTheKid View Post
Isn't this a contract year for Wolski? If so, I'd rather see if he's motivated.

If I'm wrong here, ignore this post.
You're correct.

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07-14-2011, 12:59 PM
  #46
Mason530
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Seriously, anytime moving Wolski away for young prospect and picks is good. Adding Christensen for more assets in return is good.

There is no such thing of 'past the point to add young assets'. They can also be part of future trades, bad teams always want young and inexpensive players in return. In addition, there is nothing bad about having a wave after wave of young players coming up.

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07-14-2011, 01:01 PM
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I like having Christensen, Wolski, Avery all as options off the scratch list. Unfortunately that leaves us without a 7th dman.

I think its more likely that management leaves Vinny unsigned and runs EC and Avery as the scratches with a 7th defenseman.

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07-14-2011, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LamoTheKid View Post
Isn't this a contract year for Wolski? If so, I'd rather see if he's motivated.

If I'm wrong here, ignore this post.
yes, contract year. for the low return suggested, I'd rather hold on to him. Putting him with Richards will spark his motor boat, even if it only lasts for 30 games in the season, you will get 30 very productive games out of him. And if you must trade him, THAT is when you trade him

And I love Tyutin and all but another LD? We could really use a RD if we are going to acquire one.

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07-14-2011, 01:45 PM
  #49
Melrose_Jr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
The issue with Wolski isn't points. It's everything else. Even if he goes out there and puts up the points, he's shown that he's not willing to battle (even in the playoffs, in close games). Torts will not stand for that, and Wolski will find himself relegated to low minutes or even being the healthy scratch.
But if he goes out and has a career offensive year, does Tortorella look past some of those shortcomings?

There's simply no place for Wolski as a 3rd liner on this team. If Tortorella isn't committed to getting the best of out his abilities in a perfect situation, then indeed he should cut bait and seek a swap that gets the Rangers something better than a high paid bench rider.

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07-14-2011, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
But if he goes out and has a career offensive year, does Tortorella look past some of those shortcomings?

There's simply no place for Wolski as a 3rd liner on this team. If Tortorella isn't committed to getting the best of out his abilities in a perfect situation, then indeed he should cut bait and seek a swap that gets the Rangers something better than a high paid bench rider.
Maybe, but I don't see how he gets to the point of having his shortcomings overlooked (due to a career year), because unless he's absolute gangbuster out of the gate, I think those other shortcomings result in him relegated to bottom 6 minutes or the healthy scratch slot.

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