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Old
07-11-2011, 06:25 PM
  #51
seventieslord
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I wonder how much of it has to do with that Gretzky quote saying Forsberg was top-5 of all-time.

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07-11-2011, 07:11 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think if you would watch a homage to the goals he has scored you'd beg to differ that he has "not the greatest hands". I know you have seen Crosby play many times so I wonder what you're thinking. If you are comparing him to the hands of Lemieux then I can see, but there are few players in the NHL with better hands than him right now. Datsyuk, maybe Malkin.
Sid has never been a dangler.I think he is the best player in the league, but his "hands" are nowhere near best.Very rarely you see him do magical dkeing like Malkin and Dats.

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07-11-2011, 07:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wonder how much of it has to do with that Gretzky quote saying Forsberg was top-5 of all-time.
I never read that. I just think it's funny, that people think it's funny that I couldn't make a case for Forsberg being a better hockey player than Trottier. Trottier had considerably better linemates than Forsberg, yet he was still better offensively relative to his era, and even by a bit more in the playoffs. Trottier was better than Forsberg defensively? That opinion I can live with, but if so, it's not by much.

Really, I feel like I can just as easily say, make the case for Trottier being a better player than Forsberg, without simply just showing me the HOH top 100 ratings.

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07-11-2011, 07:24 PM
  #54
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Show me how Trottier's ten year prime was better than Forsberg's other then games played. I think you could almost go with either one. Then when you consider one guy had a top 5 defenseman and top 5 goalscorer of all-time as linemates, in a slightly more shallow NHL, then I say there's a good argument for Forsberg being the better player. Even ignoring that there still is.

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Old
07-11-2011, 08:23 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabres1026 View Post
Lemieux or lindros.
Lindros is a great example.

The list of elite offensive players who were that dominant physically is very very short. He was maybe the best bodychecking and fighting forward in the league outside of pure goons. And of the few comparables in that regard, I can't think of any that did it as a centre who was an elite playmaker.

And Lemieux...unique in the sense that he had basically the best of every single offensive skill you could ever want from a player.

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07-11-2011, 11:27 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Show me how Trottier's ten year prime was better than Forsberg's other then games played.
Sure, that is child's play:

Awards

AwardTrottierForsberg
Calder11
Art Ross11
Hart11
Conn Smythe10
1st AS23
2nd AS20

Trottier was also the runner up for the Hart trophy in '78 and '82, and he was 3rd in '84, which along with his playoff record, pretty much ends this whole debate right there.

Edge: Trottier.


Production:

Trottier: 5th, 5th, 8th finishes in goal scoring.
Forsberg: None.

Trottier: 1, 1, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 8 finishes in assists.
Forsberg: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10.

Trottier: 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10 finishes in points.
Forsberg: 1, 2, 4, 5, 9

Edge: Trottier

(although as a playmaker and total production its close, Trottier's goalscoring and longevity wins the day)


Defensive Play

Trottier: 1,2,3,4,10 finishes in plus minus. (plus minus sucks but..)
Forsberg: 1, 10, 10.

Trottier: 2,7,8,10 Selke voting.
Forsberg: 2,4,6,8

(hopefully I have those correct, it is too late for checking small votes off the list!)

At first glance the Selke record looks close and in favour of Forsberg.

However, if you consider the voting trends on the Selke during Trottier's prime vs. the trend during Forsberg's time, it is in fact the opposite. Trottier garnering Selke attention while putting up 100+ point seasons was not the norm at the time.

Trottier was also voted the best faceoff man in the league in an NHL coaches poll, among other attributes applicable to defense.

In any case, overall it is

Edge: Trottier.



Playoffs/Leadership

Trottier:

Copy and pasted from my bio in the ATD this year:

Over the Islanders 5 straight Stanley Cup final runs Trottier put up 121 points in 96 games while helping his team win a record 19 straight playoff series.

A little known fact is a testimonial to Trottier's consistency during the playoffs: Trottier is the unofficial record holder for scoring at least one point in 27 consecutive playoff games.

Trottier led the NHL playoffs in scoring two times and won the Conn Smythe trophy in 1980.


Forsberg:

Forsberg was also a huge playoff performer and, like Trottier, lead the post season in scoring twice. Most impressively, the second time he lead the playoffs in scoring the Avs didn't even make the finals.

Notably he also scored goals at a higher rate in the playoffs compared to his regular seasons.

Forsberg won two Stanley Cups but did not play the finals in '01.

This is the area that Forsberg is closest to Trottier in if you ask me.

However the consecutive game scoring streak, Conn Smythe and 4 Cups during 5 straight finals runs has to tip this towards Trottier.

Edge: Trottier


Physicality:

Hulking defenseman Larry Robinson was another fan of Trottier's.

"What you don't realize is that Trottier weighs over 200 pounds. You can't budge the guy or knock the puck off of his stick. And he hands out a lot of punishment at close quarters."

Anyone who watched them both play knows this one is over before it even got started.

Edge: Trottier (but Forsberg was no slouch either)


I hope this has been informative.

And it isn't meant to slight Forsberg - a great player in his own right.

I do think Forsberg is the closest player to Trottier that the league has seen since.

I'm just keeping the Forsberg fans feet on the ground and indulging in pumping up Trottier who I do believe gets overlooked at times.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:39 PM
  #57
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Very well done Brave.

Too bad it's all going to go to waste when the first thing out of their mouths will be...."Yeah but that was in the 80's"

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Old
07-12-2011, 12:54 AM
  #58
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Hasek. Nobody can come close to finding another goalie like him.
Terry Sawchuk imo

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Old
07-12-2011, 09:46 AM
  #59
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Trottier was not better in the playoffs than Forsberg... I've seen Trottier play, many times. He wasn't as good in his era as Forsberg was in his. When did I ever say something like, but that was in the 80's?

Of course linemates don't matter at all to you eh? Forsberg was the second best offensive player in the league in his ten year prime, Trottier was 4th...

Forsberg was the best offensive player tied with Jagr in his ten year prime, Trottier wasn't. Forsberg was better. He was just as good a hitter, and if we consider puck control a form of defense he was on par with him defensively as well.


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Old
07-12-2011, 10:11 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Korean Devil 23 View Post
Hasek. Nobody can come close to finding another goalie like him.
He OWNS this thread. Uncomparable.

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Old
07-12-2011, 10:15 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
You guys are in dreamland. Wow.

B/S.
I could say the same thing about your Forsberg dreams.

Quote:
Trottier was not better in the playoffs than Forsberg
Yes, he was.. he lead the playoffs twice the same as Forsberg.

The difference is he has two extra cup rings in his prime, an extra finals appearance on top, a 27 game playoff point streak, and most importantly: the Conn Smythe trophy.

You know, the playoff MVP?

Quote:
... I've seen Trottier play, many times. He wasn't as good in his era as Forsberg was in his.
Based on what?

Quote:
When did I ever say something like, but that was in the 80's?
Maybe not in so many words, but it is a pretty constant philosophy with you. I mean you literally just told us yesterday that Jagr was better in an absolute sense post lockout than in his prime.

Quote:
Of course linemates don't matter at all to you eh?
For sure Trottier had the best single linemate in Bossy.. but you're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to make team arguments for Forsberg. Forsberg played on a very strong cup contending team his entire prime. Sakic, Roy, Blake, Bourque etc..


Quote:
Forsberg was the second best offensive player in the league in his ten year prime, Trottier was 4th...

Forsberg was the best offensive player tied with Jagr in his ten year prime, Trottier wasn't.
Again, based on what?

Quote:
Forsberg was better. He was just as good a hitter, and if we consider puck control a form of defense he was on par with him defensively as well.
No, he was a good hitter, but not as good as Trottier. Trottier was a punishing opponent seemingly every shift.

And as for the puck control, Trottier was also voted among the best stickhandlers in the league in a coaches poll during his prime.

Forsberg is not on par with Trottier defensively. Forsberg was good defensively, Trottier was great.


If you have an actual argument to make, then make it. Otherwise abandon your fantasy.

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Old
07-12-2011, 11:37 AM
  #62
vadim sharifijanov
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we may never see another lindros, but we will see guys who are a poor man's lindros. early thornton was one, getzlaf is another.

but we will never even see a poor man's fedorov. his skill set was one of a kind.

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07-12-2011, 12:47 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
For sure Trottier had the best single linemate in Bossy.. but you're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to make team arguments for Forsberg. Forsberg played on a very strong cup contending team his entire prime. Sakic, Roy, Blake, Bourque etc..
I agree that Bryan Trottier was probably a better player than Peter Forsberg ever was. He absolutely without question accomplished more.

However I think you're circumventing the point here in the linemate/teammate argument. The Avs of the late 90s early 00s was a great team. The Isles of the early 80s, however was probably among the top 5 teams the game has ever seen. And Trottier's line is likely one of the absolutely most talented lines the game has ever seen.

You are correct, Forsberg played on a very strong cup-contending team during his entire prime. But the point here is that Trottier played on an aboslutely outstanding team during his prime. Yes, Trottier was an integral part of making that team what it was, but it is obvious that he played his career with a greater team and better even strength linemates than Forsberg ever did.

Trottier did accomplish more than Forsberg did. But I do believe that he also had better help doing so. Milan Hejduk simply does not compare to Mike Bossy. Adam Foote does not compare to Denis Potvin.

I still agree with your main point, just felt I needed to give my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

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07-12-2011, 01:53 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Kaiser View Post
Trottier did accomplish more than Forsberg did. But I do believe that he also had better help doing so. Milan Hejduk simply does not compare to Mike Bossy. Adam Foote does not compare to Denis Potvin.
One thing that could probably be noted on Trottier's behalf: Unlike Forsberg, I'm sure Trottier's line was always the one getting the most attention from the opposition's top defensive players. While Forsberg didn't have the benefit of a Bossy-level talent on his line, Trottier never had the benefit of Joe Sakic taking attention away from him either. Just sayin'.

Both guys played on such stacked teams though, it's pretty hard to argue that one had such an advantage over the other.


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07-12-2011, 02:34 PM
  #65
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One thing that could probably be noted on Trottier's behalf: Unlike Forsberg, I'm sure Trottier's line was always the one getting the most attention from the opposition's top defensive players. While Forsberg didn't have the benefit of a Bossy-level talent on his line, Trottier never had the benefit of Joe Sakic taking attention away from him either. Just sayin'.

Both guys played on such stacked teams though, it's pretty hard to argue that one had such an advantage over the other.
I agree that when comparing Trottier to Forsberg it does not matter. Both played on such highly succesful teams that the "teammate argument" is irrelevant to me. That argument becomes an issue when arguing players from say the '85 Oilers vs. the '75 Caps.

It's just that I can't agree on the Isles and Avs being equal. Imo, the early 80s Isles is one of the top-5 hockey teams ever assembled.

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07-12-2011, 04:07 PM
  #66
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... I personally would choose a prime Trottier over a prime Forsberg, but it's very very close.

I think one of the questions I would ask, if I were comparing the two (which I think is silly, by the way) - were either of these players even the best on their own teams, much less in the league? To me, Sakic was the best on those Nordique/Avalanche teams, and Potvin was the best on those Islander teams. Both guys were surrounded by a very significant amount of talent.

As for the topic of the thread ... I would also say Hasek was a player the likes of which I'd never seen before and likely will never see again.

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07-15-2011, 09:14 AM
  #67
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The guy talks about how much linemates matter, and they do, and Trottier played with a top 5 goalscorer, and a top 5 defenseman (offensively and defensively) during his entire prime, yet on a per game basis still wasn't as good offensively compared to his peers as Forsberg was, in the regular season, and in the playoffs. Forsberg played with Foote, and some decent lines for maybe 4 or 5 seasons.

Everything I've just stated here is not an opinion, they're all facts. Facts that make me question how Trottier was better by any decisive margin, if at all.

You guys realize that would be like Forsberg spending his entire prime in this era with players like Pronger and Kovalchuk. What would his +/- be like then? Assuming he had Joe to take all the tough matchups for him (...lol), then it would have been even better, and that's just deadly...

Even pretending the league they each played in (teams they faced), and the players they were playing with weren't a factor, I don't see how Trottier displayed that he was a better player than Forsberg. Infact, he started to decline a lot earlier, and if Forsberg still had both ankles he'd likely still be one of the best players today.

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07-15-2011, 10:06 AM
  #68
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now i've seen everything. using potvin and bossy to discredit trottier. bryan trottier, as unassailable and visibly dominant a non-generational superstar as this game has ever seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Infact, he started to decline a lot earlier, and if Forsberg still had both ankles he'd likely still be one of the best players today.
IF. IF trottier hadn't played in five straight stanley cup finals + the 1981 canada cup, maybe he would have continued to put up 100 points into his 12th season. or maybe if he had taken the entire '84-'85 regular season off to heal and regenerate and just came back for the playoffs...

trottier declined earlier? trottier ran out of gas after the fifth finals run, at age 28. that was his 10th year in the league. forsberg only played 128 NHL games from his 10th season on. when healthy, he was still one of the best players in the for sure, but he was broken by then. and forsberg had far fewer miles on his body than trottier when he broke.

fact of the matter is, peak vs. peak, it's pretty close. i can't even definitely decide which one i would take though i tend towards trottier because in his best regular season, forsberg won the scoring championship over markus naslund only because naslund choked in the last game of the season. in his best regular season, trottier won the scoring championship over guy lafleur and marcel dionne at the height of their powers. but both guys did their best work in the playoffs, and in my opinion their playoff peaks are very close.

career vs. career, how is it even a question? his 10th season and after, trottier still put up three PPG years in FULL seasons. forsberg put up PPG years in frustratingly abbreviated seasons, and that's after having two full seasons off in the middle to rest up and heal.

forsberg was remarkably physical for a skill player. he could and did run over guys. but trottier was devastasting physically. not just devastastingly physical for a skill player, devastingly physical period. he played a much more physical game and his body held up much better.

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07-15-2011, 10:21 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
now i've seen everything. using potvin and bossy to discredit trottier. bryan trottier, as unassailable and visibly dominant a non-generational superstar as this game has ever seen.



IF. IF trottier hadn't played in five straight stanley cup finals + the 1981 canada cup, maybe he would have continued to put up 100 points into his 12th season. or maybe if he had taken the entire '84-'85 regular season off to heal and regenerate and just came back for the playoffs...

trottier declined earlier? trottier ran out of gas after the fifth finals run, at age 28. that was his 10th year in the league. forsberg only played 128 NHL games from his 10th season on. when healthy, he was still one of the best players in the for sure, but he was broken by then. and forsberg had far fewer miles on his body than trottier when he broke.

fact of the matter is, peak vs. peak, it's pretty close. i can't even definitely decide which one i would take though i tend towards trottier because in his best regular season, forsberg won the scoring championship over markus naslund only because naslund choked in the last game of the season. in his best regular season, trottier won the scoring championship over guy lafleur and marcel dionne at the height of their powers. but both guys did their best work in the playoffs, and in my opinion their playoff peaks are very close.

career vs. career, how is it even a question? his 10th season and after, trottier still put up three PPG years in FULL seasons. forsberg put up PPG years in frustratingly abbreviated seasons, and that's after having two full seasons off in the middle to rest up and heal.

forsberg was remarkably physical for a skill player. he could and did run over guys. but trottier was devastasting physically. not just devastastingly physical for a skill player, devastingly physical period. he played a much more physical game and his body held up much better.
What is with all this discrediting talk? I'm not aloud to try and make as accurate a comparison as possible (which involves factoring in who you play with and against), and you're going to tell me having those linemates didn't factor in his production, and that it wasn't more of an edge than the situation Forsberg was in? I mean it surely wasn't a bad one, but honestly I think who's better between the two is more of an opinion, and neither one could possibly be that much better than the other that it could be decisive, or someone's opinion could be wrong. I'm aware of all stats possible when comparing the two, have seen Trottier play enough times, and I just don't see the clear edge, if any, that Trottier supposedly has on him.

Regarding the second bolded part of your post, Forsberg played 7 less games than Naslund that year, and his ankle started to become an issue (along with many other past injuries) around the time they paired Forsberg with Tanguay/Hejduk and he started tearing things up. How you can give an edge to Trottier for a peak season based on Naslund "choking away the scoring lead", is rather curious.


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07-15-2011, 11:03 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
The guy talks about how much linemates matter, and they do, and Trottier played with a top 5 goalscorer, and a top 5 defenseman (offensively and defensively) during his entire prime, yet on a per game basis still wasn't as good offensively compared to his peers as Forsberg was, in the regular season, and in the playoffs. Forsberg played with Foote, and some decent lines for maybe 4 or 5 seasons.
I'm a huge Forsberg fan but Trottier was significantly better IMO. It's no small point that Trottier's "peers" were some of the best players the game has ever seen, especially when it comes to scoring. Playing Gretzky and that team in 2 straight finals (the 4th and 5th straight seasons Trottier had been to the finals, surely took it's toll)

And Forsberg maxed out at 30 goals, Trottier accomplished 30 or more 11 times, including 4 40+ and 1 50 goal season. He had 6 100pt seasons. 6 cups.

It's one thing to look at per/game stats and draw comparisons but Trottier delivered far more than what you see in the stats it's just doing a complete disservices to him as a player to compare on stats. I know Forsberg also contributed in several ways but Trottier's success and stats would have been even more incredible if he hadn't played in an era with 99 and 66.

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07-15-2011, 11:11 AM
  #71
vadim sharifijanov
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What is with all this discrediting talk? I'm not aloud to try and make as accurate a comparison as possible (which involves factoring in who you play with and against), and you're going to tell me having those linemates didn't factor in his production, and that it wasn't more of an edge than the situation Forsberg was in? I mean it surely wasn't a bad one, but honestly I think who's better between the two is more of an opinion, and neither one could possibly be that much better than the other that it could be decisive, or someone's opinion could be wrong. I'm aware of all stats possible when comparing the two, have seen Trottier play enough times, and I just don't see the clear edge, if any, that Trottier supposedly has on him.

Regarding the second bolded part of your post, Forsberg played 7 less games than Naslund that year, and his ankle started to become an issue (along with many other past injuries) around the time they paired Forsberg with Tanguay/Hejduk and he started tearing things up. How you can give an edge to Trottier for a peak season based on Naslund "choking away the scoring lead", is rather curious.
i say "discredit" because it seems like we have two guys who at their peak have similar accomplishments relative to their peers. so when we try to differentiate them, we we either point to a positive that sets one guy apart (e.g., trottier's very complete game), or we point to a negative (e.g., quality of linemates in your case, or quality of competition in mine).

i do agree that, peak vs. peak at least, choosing between the two is not an exact science and is a matter of opinion. but i disagree with your methodology, based on how having seen how demonstrably dominant trottier was. potvin and bossy didn't make trottier stronger or tougher, didn't make him a better defensive player, didn't make him a better leader, even if they may arguably have augmented his stats somewhat. the plus/minus i'll give you, but i don't think you really need plus/minus stats to make a case for trots.

yes, forsberg played seven fewer games. (i don't think it adds much to my argument, but i'll note that trottier played four fewer games than lafleur and dionne in his best offensive year, and finished with twice as big a lead in the scoring race.) but my point is, can we seriously compare peak naslund to peak lafleur and dionne as art ross competition? wouldn't peak trottier also have won the art ross over peak naslund, peak bertuzzi, and young thornton in '03? would peak forsberg win the art ross over peak lafleur and dionne in '79?

as for the choking thing, naslund did certainly choke. he choked away the richard trophy, art ross, first place in the division, and the 50 goal mark on the same day, captaining a first place team to being shut out against a non-playoff LA team on the last day of the season when all they needed was a tie to clinch. i watched naslund's entire vancouver career and i am 100% sure that if there wasn't so much riding on that last game of the season, he would have won that game and the art ross, with a good chance at also the rocket richard.

that's not to say that forsberg wasn't awesome in '03. he went on an insane tear in the second half of that season and came back from having a forgettable first half of the season by his high standards to catch naslund in the scoring race and to catch the canucks for the division lead. he was the rightful hart winner that year, no doubt about it. full credit to forsberg for coming through on his big last game of the season and helping to seal hejduk's richard trophy while doing it. but how does naslund, who feasted on non-playoff teams that year, not score two points in that game? if naslund had also performed as he would have under normal circumstances, forsberg has no art rosses and probably no harts either.

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