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Old
07-15-2011, 04:36 PM
  #26
Brad Doty
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
That about sums it up. Like several have said, Hickey may make the NHL - but he may not make it with the Kings.

THAT should be later round picks, not a #4 overall.

Many hockey "experts" had Hickey to be drafted in the 2nd round or later - that is proving to be correct.

The Hickey pick at #4 is easily DL's biggest failure as GM - geez Hickey may have even been available in the 2nd round.
The first round of that draft is pretty miserable, though. I definitely wanted either Alzner or Voracek (I remember my buddy and I looking at each other, going "WHO?!?", and immediately pounding a beer), but I still think Hickey could be the best among them. I just think, due to injuries and his physical development, he's going to be more of a project than intended. I still think he's going to be a top-4 d-man in the NHL--it's just going to take some time.

In retrospect, it's easy to say that's DL's biggest failure, but keep in mind the cupboards were pretty bare at the time. I also doubt Hickey would have been available in the 2nd round, seeing as (reportedly, of course) DL allegedly tried to trade down but changed his mind as someone else (Boston?) had Hickey in their sights.

But don't get me wrong...I'm not mad at anyone here who sees it the other way. I just feel like Hickey is being sold a bit short.

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07-15-2011, 04:40 PM
  #27
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No way is Hickey a bust!

I just think some people have an unrealistic expectations when it comes to player development. Not everyone's going to be NHL ready coming out of juniors. Hickey, Voynov and even Teubert (I know he's no longer a king) should all develop into a solid dman.

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07-15-2011, 04:47 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
No way is Hickey a bust!

I just think some people have an unrealistic expectations when it comes to player development. Not everyone's going to be NHL ready coming out of juniors. Hickey, Voynov and even Teubert (I know he's no longer a king) should all develop into a solid dman.
I agree, we just need to find a way to combine them all.

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07-15-2011, 04:50 PM
  #29
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My issue is that if Hickey never makes this team he was a wasted draft pick. Yes he has had a run of injuries but that also comes into play. He is undersized for a Dman. Were those injuries freakish, I don't know, maybe he will rebound. If lucky he will turn into a Rafalski type player one day, I don't see him being more than a 5 or 6 on the Kings tho.

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07-15-2011, 05:04 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
No way is Hickey a bust!

I just think some people have an unrealistic expectations when it comes to player development. Not everyone's going to be NHL ready coming out of juniors. Hickey, Voynov and even Teubert (I know he's no longer a king) should all develop into a solid dman.
I agree. And Boston was going to move up and take him. You can look at every draft with 20/20 hindsight, but Hickey's career is far from over yet.

If he doesn't wind up playing for the Kings, they should be able to get at least something for him. I would like to see him get his shot, but we have a crazy amount of depth. If he flourishes elsewhere, I expect there will be some gnashing of teeth.

On a related note: I remember a lot of people being down on Martinez before this season began, too. He was sent back to Manchester, and was cut before Hickey and Muzzin at camp. His first call-up to the Kings made almost everyone write him off; his second call-up made people into believers. He worked hard to get a second shot, and it paid off.

A lot of things can happen.

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07-15-2011, 05:21 PM
  #31
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I think Thomas Hickey plays 15+ games with the Kings this year. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say it.

I know Voinov has jumped ahead on the depth chart, but Hickey's going to get a taste of the NHL this year. It's time. Also, I don't think Drewiske is going to make it through the entire year as a King.

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07-15-2011, 07:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Asheru View Post
On a related note: I remember a lot of people being down on Martinez before this season began, too. He was sent back to Manchester, and was cut before Hickey and Muzzin at camp. His first call-up to the Kings made almost everyone write him off; his second call-up made people into believers. He worked hard to get a second shot, and it paid off.

A lot of things can happen.
Maybe, but being down on a #95 pick (!) and being down on a #4 pick are 2 TOTALLY different things. Yes, I equate a #4 as being more NHL-ready than a #95. Who doesn't do that?

Does that really need to be pointed out?

A Mart looked great last year, I liked what he showed. Unfortunately, I don't have a sampling of Hickey games to see what he's got.

Yeah, a lot of things can happen - I'd like to see Hickey make it here. It's total;ly up to his skill set.

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07-15-2011, 07:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Maybe, but being down on a #95 pick (!) and being down on a #4 pick are 2 TOTALLY different things. Yes, I equate a #4 as being more NHL-ready than a #95. Who doesn't do that?

Does that really need to be pointed out?
I think it does.

The "bust" label is thrown around to any Kings defenseman who doesn't make the NHL by age 22. And yet, most defensmen don't break into the league until they're older than that.

You can make a big deal about him going #4 overall, but each draft year is different. I think it's right to acknowledge that.

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07-15-2011, 07:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Knight of the Realm View Post
I would have been happier with Alzner or Voracek(I believe he was after Hickey no?)

I like Hickey and I want to see him make the team but his window is getting smaller.
JJ, Doughty, Greene, and AMart all have spots barring injury or trade. The space just isn't going to be there and it's looking like he may never suit up in LA.

That to me is a bust, especially at #4 in the draft.

For his sake I think he can make the NHL but it might take awhile. Even Boucher was traded a couple of times before coming into his own. If LA can trade him for something of use I'd be happy but I don't think the league is burning up the phones for Hickey, sort-of-speak.
Would you call Alzner a bust too, had Lombardi draft him instead? He'd be log jammed right behind Greene, Scuds and Mitchell [you could probably throw in DD44 too], in the exact position Hickeys in, waiting to get his shot. Voracek has scored 39 goals in 241 games and is not exactly tearing up the league.Calling Hickey a bust is way too premature, now if you want to talk about Kyle Turris...

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07-15-2011, 08:45 PM
  #35
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Alzner hasn't had the injury history and has shown himself to be a decent player, with ice time granted. Alzner was also drafted where he should have been. DL didn't like him because he was a what you see is what you get kind of player. Ask the caps fans how they feel about him. In LA, it's entirely possible that Alzner would have taken AMarts spot or provided a role that we brought Mitchell in here for. Hickey has some tools but if isn't a bust he is very close to being one.

I just don't see him beating anyone out of a job. DD44 beat him out. Voynov has surpassed him. Muzzin has more grit. Forbort will be coming up eventually. Deslauries has all the skill set of Hickey. Is he bust for the NHL, doubt it. Is he a bust for the Kings, odds are not stacking up in his favor.

After Scuds and Mitchell leave: 12/13 season
JJ Doughty
Greene Voynov
Martinez Muzzin
Hickey

IF LA does not pick up/resign a vet

Hickey really has to come strong this camp!

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07-15-2011, 09:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Knight of the Realm View Post
Alzner hasn't had the injury history and has shown himself to be a decent player, with ice time granted. Alzner was also drafted where he should have been. DL didn't like him because he was a what you see is what you get kind of player. Ask the caps fans how they feel about him. In LA, it's entirely possible that Alzner would have taken AMarts spot or provided a role that we brought Mitchell in here for. Hickey has some tools but if isn't a bust he is very close to being one.
Alzner is benefiting from being Carlson's partner. DL didn't deny his talent at all -- if you go back to the draft interviews, you see him acknowledge it. He thought Alzner was closer to making the NHL at a younger age. Hickey had something else (and this was before the injuries, too),

I think where we differ is the label of "bust." Hickey will need to wind up not having an NHL career, by my definition. You think the pick should have been used on someone else. I sympathize, but to me, that's a different issue.

Hickey and Alzner had no control over where they were drafted. I think this is anger at DL more than the player, yet it manifests itself in criticism of the draft pick.

Let Hickey be Hickey, and see what comes of it. And realize that we drafted a lot of players in the same time period, so the franchise's success isn't riding on any one kid. Drafts are like that.

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07-16-2011, 12:12 AM
  #37
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The "bust" label is thrown around to any Kings defenseman who doesn't make the NHL by age 22. And yet, most defensmen don't break into the league until they're older than that.
Actually it was the last season (2010-11) several 2007 1st round draftees broke into the league.

2007 NHL Entry Draft
1st round, drafted dmens

#5 Karl Alzner played last season 82 NHL games
# 10 Keaton Ellerby 54 NHL games
# 12 Ryan McDonagh 40 NHL games
# 14 Kevin Shattenkirk 72 NHL games
# 15 Alex Plante 3 NHL games
# 18 Ian Cole 26 NHL games
#23 Jonathon Blum 23 NHL games

#4 Thomas Hickey no NHL-games
#27 Brendan Smith no NHL-games
#28 Nick Petrecki no NHL-games
#30 Nick Ross no NHL-games

And Brendan Smith had an excellent season in the AHL and is a lot, really a LOT, better prospect than Hickey.

There was also some 2nd and 3rd rounders, whose played in the NHL last season like Montreal's P.K. Subban and Yannick Weber.

I don't understand why people think that Hickey is a good prospect. A smallish injuryprone dman, who can't produce points and he is definitely not a physical force.

Injuries? Jake Muzzin had also some injuries and now 5th rounder Muzzin >>> 1st rounder Hickey. Muzzin = a potential two-way dman, Hickey = no-way dman, a career AHLer.

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07-16-2011, 12:38 AM
  #38
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You also have to consider team needs. The Kings are overloaded on D making it very difficult for Hickey or VV or JM to break in and play leaving them outside of the NHL. Several of the players listed went to teams who simply had more room to to give them the space to bring them into the league.

I can't see why that part of the Hickey saga is hard to understand (not directed at anyone in particular, just in general). We simply have nothing to measure his abilities at the NHL level yet and until he makes his debut we won't. He has improved each year at each level he has played at whenever injuries weren't present.

Its all opinion but I stand behind my own and that is that Hickey is an exceptional skater with a great shot who has a ton of hockey I Q. I am not certain he will get his chance with our team to become an established top four NHL defenceman but I am willing to bet that he will get his shot with some team to make it.

Using some of the logic posted here then there are tons of prospects who are also busts because of their size or that they have had injuries or haven't been able to usurp Kopitar yet etc etc.

Time, sometimes it take more time to develop then people would like but that doesn't mean that it won't happen.

Its all interesting to me.

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07-16-2011, 12:38 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Asheru View Post
Alzner is benefiting from being Carlson's partner. DL didn't deny his talent at all -- if you go back to the draft interviews, you see him acknowledge it. He thought Alzner was closer to making the NHL at a younger age. Hickey had something else (and this was before the injuries, too),

I think where we differ is the label of "bust." Hickey will need to wind up not having an NHL career, by my definition. You think the pick should have been used on someone else. I sympathize, but to me, that's a different issue.

Hickey and Alzner had no control over where they were drafted. I think this is anger at DL more than the player, yet it manifests itself in criticism of the draft pick.

Let Hickey be Hickey, and see what comes of it. And realize that we drafted a lot of players in the same time period, so the franchise's success isn't riding on any one kid. Drafts are like that.
My definition of a bust is being drafted at #4 and not playing a game or becoming a significant part of the Kings team. He may go on to another team and have a decent career or he could turn some heads this year. Is Hickey a bust in the sense that he may never play in the NHL? No, probably not. I do think he is a bust in the sense that Purcell, Boyle, and Tukonen were for the Kings. I hope he can prove me wrong.

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07-16-2011, 12:54 AM
  #40
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One interesting thing about Hickey and our first round picks is that when Dean was hired, he was championing a platform of building through the draft and was pointing at our drafting history of how our first round picks mostly never played for LA and a lot of the picks or prospects were either traded before they could show what they could do or they would bust and not play in the NHL.

It's a little funny because Dean has made 7 first round selections out of 8 possible picks (Bernier, Lewis, Hickey, Doughty, Teubert, Schenn, and Forbort), and only 3 of those players (Doughty, Bernier, and Lewis) has played for the Kings, and only one (Doughty) is the primary in his role and looks to have a long-term future with the organization at this point (outside of the most recent Forbort who is still unknown). But it is still a little interesting that three of those players/picks (Teubert, Schenn, 2011 1st) were traded and four of those players (Forbort) either never will or have yet to play a game for the Kings.

I am sure this is the whole foundation of the local pessimist/anti-Dean argument, but it is a little amusing to see that he campaigned on a platform of developing internally and utilizing those firsts, making fun of the Pagnutti and Jokinen picks, and less than 50% of his picks have been kept or has done anything for us.

Not that I am complaining, I love the way things turned out, just an interesting note.

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07-16-2011, 12:56 AM
  #41
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Hickey's had a lot of injuries, hard to predict that. He was also selected in a weak draft. So being 4th overall is out of context a bit. But if he does end of being a bust. Big deal. Voynov, Muzzin, A-mart, Ndes were all steals.

Sometimes you miss with a high pick, sometimes you strike gold with a late one. But when you add it all up we gotta be pleased with the drafting in Lombardi's era.

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07-16-2011, 12:57 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Vino View Post
Actually it was the last season (2010-11) several 2007 1st round draftees broke into the league.

2007 NHL Entry Draft
1st round, drafted dmens

#5 Karl Alzner played last season 82 NHL games
# 10 Keaton Ellerby 54 NHL games
# 12 Ryan McDonagh 40 NHL games
# 14 Kevin Shattenkirk 72 NHL games
# 15 Alex Plante 3 NHL games
# 18 Ian Cole 26 NHL games
#23 Jonathon Blum 23 NHL games

#4 Thomas Hickey no NHL-games
#27 Brendan Smith no NHL-games
#28 Nick Petrecki no NHL-games
#30 Nick Ross no NHL-games

And Brendan Smith had an excellent season in the AHL and is a lot, really a LOT, better prospect than Hickey.

There was also some 2nd and 3rd rounders, whose played in the NHL last season like Montreal's P.K. Subban and Yannick Weber.

I don't understand why people think that Hickey is a good prospect. A smallish injuryprone dman, who can't produce points and he is definitely not a physical force.

Injuries? Jake Muzzin had also some injuries and now 5th rounder Muzzin >>> 1st rounder Hickey. Muzzin = a potential two-way dman, Hickey = no-way dman, a career AHLer.
Meh....the 07 draft, basically screwed every rebuilding team except for the Hawks. Compared to basically every year since then you'd be beyond pissed if Hickey was your pick. That year honestly it doesn't hurt much. As for the Alzner pick....absolute waste imo, players with little to no offensive upside or "character guys" with third line upside have no place in the top5-10 most not even the first round. I would never touch a player like L. Schenn/Alzner/Teuburt/Maclarth and Upshall/Chipchura in the high first round. Give me a risky Russian any day of the week over an average NHL player.

And comparing to Muzzin is misleading. Muzzin was a top pick going into juniors and had back/injury problems that lead to him missing much time and falling in the draft and then not getting signed.

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07-16-2011, 01:05 AM
  #43
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All fair points to me and as far as DL's drafting has gone I can't imagine anyone saying anything close to negative about what he has been able to do. To me it is shocking and I mean absolutely shocking how successful DL and co have been and when it is all said and done I think that they may end up being seen as among the best of all time.

It is shocking how deep we are at every position and how many of his players are in the NHL today.

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07-16-2011, 05:53 AM
  #44
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All fair points to me and as far as DL's drafting has gone I can't imagine anyone saying anything close to negative about what he has been able to do. To me it is shocking and I mean absolutely shocking how successful DL and co have been and when it is all said and done I think that they may end up being seen as among the best of all time.

It is shocking how deep we are at every position and how many of his players are in the NHL today.

I remember when DL first joined the Kings, an article or interview discussing how much more money he intends to spend on drafting. I don't know if it was an extreme amount but I remember getting the sense that he was not very impressed with our scouting and development staffs(he even criticized our gym equipment). I remember starting a thread on LGK during the Dave Taylor era about why we didn't take drafting and scouting more seriously, it's so crucial and seems so obvious, maybe it was different during non-salary cap times.

It's scary but fair to assume our drafting may get even better, as DL and his staff get more experienced and more precise. It's obvious that DL drafted for need a couple times, hoping to address a team weakness rather than BPA. I can complain but not too much because Clifford was a need pick and I absolutely love the kid. But this year we go and use our highest pick in the draft on a goalie. So now it appears we're taking the best player available regardless of need, which should only improve our output.

Why did we only give DL a two year extension? I have nightmares that AEG let's Dean and Hextall go and replaces them with Robitaille/ Blake.


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07-16-2011, 10:12 AM
  #45
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Meh....the 07 draft, basically screwed every rebuilding team except for the Hawks. Compared to basically every year since then you'd be beyond pissed if Hickey was your pick. That year honestly it doesn't hurt much. As for the Alzner pick....absolute waste imo, players with little to no offensive upside or "character guys" with third line upside have no place in the top5-10 most not even the first round. I would never touch a player like L. Schenn/Alzner/Teuburt/Maclarth and Upshall/Chipchura in the high first round. Give me a risky Russian any day of the week over an average NHL player.

And comparing to Muzzin is misleading. Muzzin was a top pick going into juniors and had back/injury problems that lead to him missing much time and falling in the draft and then not getting signed.
Just because Alzner is not flashy does not mean he doesn't have value. Scuderi and Mitchell types are just as important to Stanley Cup teams as flashier players.

I understand why LA took him and he seems like a good kid with upside, but he seems closer to busting than making any impact on LA. Alot can happen and maybe Hickey will get some time to prove himself but as I said before, the odds are getting longer. If Hickey breaks in with LA it could take a long time given our defensive depth. Why would he even want to toil in the minors until he gets his shot? He may not even want to stick around that long especially with the competition that is stacking up in the organization.

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07-16-2011, 11:47 AM
  #46
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I remember when DL first joined the Kings, an article or interview discussing how much more money he intends to spend on drafting. I don't know if it was an extreme amount but I remember getting the sense that he was not very impressed with our scouting and development staffs(he even criticized our gym equipment). I remember starting a thread on LGK during the Dave Taylor era about why we didn't take drafting and scouting more seriously, it's so crucial and seems so obvious, maybe it was different during non-salary cap times.

It's scary but fair to assume our drafting may get even better, as DL and his staff get more experienced and more precise. It's obvious that DL drafted for need a couple times, hoping to address a team weakness rather than BPA. I can complain but not too much because Clifford was a need pick and I absolutely love the kid. But this year we go and use our highest pick in the draft on a goalie. So now it appears we're taking the best player available regardless of need, which should only improve our output.

Why did we only give DL a two year extension? I have nightmares that AEG let's Dean and Hextall go and replaces them with Robitaille/ Blake.
That happens and I won't be buying any tickets for a long time.

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07-16-2011, 01:42 PM
  #47
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The bust label gets thrown around way too much here the kid is still young and has been sidelined by injuries. No one has ever brought up a lack of skill, lack of effort or drive. The kid plays his ass off and has come up short because of injuries. If it was up to these boards we'd give up on another good D-man like we used to back when this organization couldn't develop players for ****, ship them off and have them emerge as gems to other teams. If anything the real handicap he has is we all can't ***** and moan about how its Terry Murray's system that's holding him back

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07-16-2011, 02:08 PM
  #48
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I remember when DL first joined the Kings, an article or interview discussing how much more money he intends to spend on drafting. I don't know if it was an extreme amount but I remember getting the sense that he was not very impressed with our scouting and development staffs(he even criticized our gym equipment). I remember starting a thread on LGK during the Dave Taylor era about why we didn't take drafting and scouting more seriously, it's so crucial and seems so obvious, maybe it was different during non-salary cap times.

It's scary but fair to assume our drafting may get even better, as DL and his staff get more experienced and more precise. It's obvious that DL drafted for need a couple times, hoping to address a team weakness rather than BPA. I can complain but not too much because Clifford was a need pick and I absolutely love the kid. But this year we go and use our highest pick in the draft on a goalie. So now it appears we're taking the best player available regardless of need, which should only improve our output.

Why did we only give DL a two year extension? I have nightmares that AEG let's Dean and Hextall go and replaces them with Robitaille/ Blake.
I am glad LA only gave DL a two year extension. He has been running the team since the summer of 2006 and its time this team win a round or two in the playoffs. Most GM's come to a team and talk about 5 yr plans. DL has just had his 5th season as GM and the team is going in the right direction. IMO the next two seasons are HUGE. If LA does not advance to the Western Final in 2012-13 I will be upset. Our young players are getting better every year and our vets are actually solid contributors.

If we don't make noise in the playoffs in the next two seasons than I would have no problem with LA bringing in a new GM

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07-16-2011, 02:12 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
One interesting thing about Hickey and our first round picks is that when Dean was hired, he was championing a platform of building through the draft and was pointing at our drafting history of how our first round picks mostly never played for LA and a lot of the picks or prospects were either traded before they could show what they could do or they would bust and not play in the NHL.

It's a little funny because Dean has made 7 first round selections out of 8 possible picks (Bernier, Lewis, Hickey, Doughty, Teubert, Schenn, and Forbort), and only 3 of those players (Doughty, Bernier, and Lewis) has played for the Kings, and only one (Doughty) is the primary in his role and looks to have a long-term future with the organization at this point (outside of the most recent Forbort who is still unknown). But it is still a little interesting that three of those players/picks (Teubert, Schenn, 2011 1st) were traded and four of those players (Forbort) either never will or have yet to play a game for the Kings.

I am sure this is the whole foundation of the local pessimist/anti-Dean argument, but it is a little amusing to see that he campaigned on a platform of developing internally and utilizing those firsts, making fun of the Pagnutti and Jokinen picks, and less than 50% of his picks have been kept or has done anything for us.

Not that I am complaining, I love the way things turned out, just an interesting note.
Pagnutti? I agree with your post and IMO the Richards deal is like Dave Taylors deal for Palffy. Both GM's saw a chance to bring in a NHL star and sacrifice a top young prospect Jokinen/Schenn

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07-16-2011, 02:19 PM
  #50
northernKing
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In 2007 i was looking for LA to draft Voracek or Blum. Had we drafted Voracek maybe we could have moved him to Philly instead of Schenn

But seriously I would be surprised to see LA not move one or two of their d prospects and maybe a Moller in a package for a solid young NHL talent. This team is now built to win in the present.

As bad as the Hickey pick may be to some I still cringe at LA trading down and allowing Buffalo to pick Meyers!

Also we need to realize that if Mitchell is not brought back after this season that LA will probably sign another UFA to fill his role. Maybe a Gleason or B.Allen?
Personally I also think Forbort is going to take another 3-5 years to make it to the NHL. Which is not a bad thing with our logjam at D.

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