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Messier's Legacy (2nd Stint)

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07-16-2011, 01:20 AM
  #1
Kershaw
 
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Messier's Legacy (2nd Stint)

Mark Messier is probably the most beloved captain in New York Rangers history, but is he one of the bigger reasons for the franchise's failures in the early 21st century? I'm saying this because Mark Messier came of a stint with the Canucks where he split up locker rooms, took the number 11, which was unofficially retired by the franchise if I recall correctly. Messier in his disastrous adventure with the Canucks ended after he re-signed with the Rangers and was given the captaincy from Brian Leetch. He later went on and promised a playoff birth upon his signing, but he never made the playoffs with the Rangers in his 2nd go-around stint. The Rangers had star players such as Bure, Leetch, Fleury, Lindros and still could not make the playoffs. These were truly the dark ages as Rangers fans as the Devils went on to have success in the early part of the decade. When he tested the free agent market, Wayne Gretzky and him were re-united from the Oilers-dynasty days the season before and enjoyed a relatively successful season together. But is Mark Messier's legacy as a captain overshadowed by him not taking a paycut to stay with the Rangers and not test the free agent market?

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07-16-2011, 01:31 AM
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Swagelin
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Yeah his legacy may be overrated but He's still the best captain we've ever had. You'll still see a ton of Messier jerseys at the garden during games.

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07-16-2011, 01:59 AM
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NYRSchrute217
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Guarantee and hat trick in Game 6 vs NJ...Stanley Cup clinching goal..etc.

I can forgive him for playing a few too many years. He should've retired earlier but it takes nothing away from him or his legacy in my opinion

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07-16-2011, 02:07 AM
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His legacy Isn't overrated by any means. As you watch more hockey and more years go by you appreciate what Mark and the rest of that team accomplished in 94 that much more.

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07-16-2011, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
Guarantee and hat trick in Game 6 vs NJ...Stanley Cup clinching goal..etc.

I can forgive him for playing a few too many years. He should've retired earlier but it takes nothing away from him or his legacy in my opinion
Just saying how some people went on to say we have to move on with Jagr, yet Messier always got the free pass. Just saying.

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07-16-2011, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
Just saying how some people went on to say we have to move on with Jagr, yet Messier always got the free pass. Just saying.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Rangers fan who thought Mess should have come back for a second stint. The Rangers should have moved on, just like they did with Jagr (possibly because they learned a lesson?).

To blame the failure of the 2000-2004 team on Mess however, seems a bit unfair to me. Yes he was part of the problem (overpaid vets who weren't nearly as good as they were in their heyday) but he wasn't the only one and I'd say that the blame should mainly be directed at a management group who simply threw $$ at FAs who were passed their prime instead of trying to build a 'team'.

You can look at the names and say that group should have achieved more (there was certainly enough talent to make the playoffs) but the pieces never really lined up.
- Lindros went back to being a concussion-ridden wreck
- Fluery went off the rails
- Holik and Messier were just massively overpaid 3rd liners who were asked to do too much
- Leetch ended up with ankle injuries that really seemed to effect his speed
- Richter had knee and concussion problems
- Bure's knees were just gone
- There were really no kids coming through the system

Yeah, all of the above are excuses, but because management signed/traded and used these players in situations they shouldn't have been in they are the ones who IMO deserve the most blame.

I think Mess tried hard, it looked like he still wanted to win but he just didn't have the skill to take over a game any more. He was still effective on the PP etc but was given too much ice-time and too much responsibility. Did he ask/demand that time? I don't know, and if he did maybe the coaches were too scared to say no to a NY legend, but then once again you need to come back to holding management accountable for not hiring coaches who could handle a very 'top heavy' playing group.

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07-16-2011, 08:40 AM
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Mark Messier is my favorite player of all time, and one of the greatest leaders in the history of this sport, and with out a doubt, the greatest Captain in Rangers history.

Yes, he stayed a little longer then he should have. Yes, he should've taken a pay cut to stay with the Rangers. But the Rangers also did everything they could to kick him out the door after the 96-97 season. Both sides were wrong, and both I think would even admit as much.

I don't think it really tarnishes his legacy too much, though. Still a beloved figure in this city.

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07-16-2011, 08:42 AM
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Going for more money was really a shame, and yes it tarnished his image somewhat. Not too much though, everyone still adores him and rightfully so.

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07-16-2011, 09:13 AM
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When he signed with the Nucks, it left a sour taste in my mouth and I haven't fully forgiven him for that.

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07-16-2011, 09:20 AM
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If I remember correctly, it was the Rangers that decided they were going hard after Joe Sakic and offer-sheeted Joe, leaving Mess' on the outside looking in. He decided to sign with Vancouver and if I am not mistaken was this the same year or close to it that we were gunning hard after Cujo when Richter was a UFA and ended up signing Richter when he got close to signing with Philly. I believe Messier was looking for close to 20 Million dollars and the Rangers were telling him HELL NO yet they turned around and offer-sheeted Joe Sakic 20 million dollars and that really left Messier's jaw hung open.

So its really the Rangers that screwed over their OWN UFA's.

When Messier came back to the Organization Dolan and Him got a glass container filled with dirt and they buried the proverbial Hatchet. And at the press conference Leetch gave Messier the Captaincy because all the Rangers fans were turning on Leetch because we thought he sucked as a captain. So it was only fitting that Messier got it back and a HUUUUGE MONKEY off Leetch's back.

I dont think Messier's legacy is tarnished by any means. He was a true captain that did ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING he could to better this franchise.

He won us a Cup (yes I know it was not only him but he definately took the franchise on its back and brought us to that cup!).

Long Live Messier.

As a Manager? I dont know yet. The vote is still out on him. Time will only tell.

But as a Leader and a Player? Blasphemy for even THINKING about making a post about tarnishing him.

Blasphemy I tell you!

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07-16-2011, 09:55 AM
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The second stint is a blur to me while 94 is still detailed and vivid.

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07-16-2011, 10:02 AM
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2nd stint was an utter failure. No two ways about it.

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07-16-2011, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
If I remember correctly, it was the Rangers that decided they were going hard after Joe Sakic and offer-sheeted Joe, leaving Mess' on the outside looking in. He decided to sign with Vancouver and if I am not mistaken was this the same year or close to it that we were gunning hard after Cujo when Richter was a UFA and ended up signing Richter when he got close to signing with Philly. I believe Messier was looking for close to 20 Million dollars and the Rangers were telling him HELL NO yet they turned around and offer-sheeted Joe Sakic 20 million dollars and that really left Messier's jaw hung open.

So its really the Rangers that screwed over their OWN UFA's.

When Messier came back to the Organization Dolan and Him got a glass container filled with dirt and they buried the proverbial Hatchet. And at the press conference Leetch gave Messier the Captaincy because all the Rangers fans were turning on Leetch because we thought he sucked as a captain. So it was only fitting that Messier got it back and a HUUUUGE MONKEY off Leetch's back.

I dont think Messier's legacy is tarnished by any means. He was a true captain that did ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING he could to better this franchise.

He won us a Cup (yes I know it was not only him but he definately took the franchise on its back and brought us to that cup!).

Long Live Messier.

As a Manager? I dont know yet. The vote is still out on him. Time will only tell.

But as a Leader and a Player? Blasphemy for even THINKING about making a post about tarnishing him.

Blasphemy I tell you!
They offer sheeted Sakic after Mess bolted. They had to do something.

He was offered the same contract that Gretz got and the primadona in him couldn't handle taking a pay cut so he bolted to 20 million over three years.

I lost a lot of respect for him for that and really have not totally forgiven him either.

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07-16-2011, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
but is he one of the bigger reasons for the franchise's failures in the early 21st century?
I think the Rangers failure in the early part of the century wasn't a fault of Messier, and this comes from a guy who fells he is somewhat overrated at times. How many bad signings did the Rangers make in the late 90s up till the new CBA, I don't blame those on Messier. Forcing a cap on the Rangers was probably the best thing the league could do to control the Rangers

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07-16-2011, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bienvenue a New York View Post
Yeah his legacy may be overrated but He's still the best captain we've ever had. You'll still see a ton of Messier jerseys at the garden during games.
Can't say best ever in an 80+ year history.

Bill Cook captained the Rangers to two Stanley Cups.

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07-16-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Can't say best ever in an 80+ year history.

Bill Cook captained the Rangers to two Stanley Cups.
Haha..good point. Unfortunately, none of us were even a thought in our parents mind...in fact, our parents weren't a thought in our grand parents mind!

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07-16-2011, 01:52 PM
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Lacked goaltending and D those years that was why we missed the playoffs year after year. Mess should have retired earlier but idk if that was enough to effect playoff birth. No goaltending and no solid D man besides Leetch who was more offensive, equals missing the playoffs no matter which forwards you have.

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07-16-2011, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
Lacked goaltending and D those years that was why we missed the playoffs year after year. Mess should have retired earlier but idk if that was enough to effect playoff birth. No goaltending and no solid D man besides Leetch who was more offensive, equals missing the playoffs no matter which forwards you have.
There was a lot more reasons then that. We weren't a team. We were a collection of big names. And we didn't have a real coach until we hired Renney.

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07-16-2011, 05:57 PM
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Sadly for me, I only remember Messier's second tenure here and was too young to remember the Cup win.

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07-16-2011, 06:38 PM
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When he bolted to Vancouver, the way it all went down left a sour taste in my mouth, for him & the organization. But, I'll always have a soft-spot for Mess. Had it not been for him...we'd still be hearing the 1940 chant.

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07-16-2011, 07:21 PM
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i can sum up how i feel about Messier in two pictures





and that's all i have to say about that.

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07-16-2011, 08:11 PM
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personally i didnt get into hockey till the 2001 season so while i have come to appreciate what hes done, I only saw him play when he was a detriment to the team.

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07-16-2011, 08:25 PM
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The real root of the problem were the Zubov and Norstrom trades. If those two moves hadn't been made, or even had one those two stayed on the Rangers, they wouldn't have missed the postseason six years in a row.

There was that one good half a season in Lindros' first year, and then it all went downhill so fast and stayed that way until Jagr got here.

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07-16-2011, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogie View Post
i can sum up how i feel about Messier in two pictures





and that's all i have to say about that.
i second this. thank you

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07-17-2011, 08:31 AM
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TonyTheGr8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
If I remember correctly, it was the Rangers that decided they were going hard after Joe Sakic and offer-sheeted Joe, leaving Mess' on the outside looking in. He decided to sign with Vancouver and if I am not mistaken was this the same year or close to it that we were gunning hard after Cujo when Richter was a UFA and ended up signing Richter when he got close to signing with Philly. I believe Messier was looking for close to 20 Million dollars and the Rangers were telling him HELL NO yet they turned around and offer-sheeted Joe Sakic 20 million dollars and that really left Messier's jaw hung open.

So its really the Rangers that screwed over their OWN UFA's.

When Messier came back to the Organization Dolan and Him got a glass container filled with dirt and they buried the proverbial Hatchet. And at the press conference Leetch gave Messier the Captaincy because all the Rangers fans were turning on Leetch because we thought he sucked as a captain. So it was only fitting that Messier got it back and a HUUUUGE MONKEY off Leetch's back.

I dont think Messier's legacy is tarnished by any means. He was a true captain that did ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING he could to better this franchise.

He won us a Cup (yes I know it was not only him but he definately took the franchise on its back and brought us to that cup!).

Long Live Messier.

As a Manager? I dont know yet. The vote is still out on him. Time will only tell.

But as a Leader and a Player? Blasphemy for even THINKING about making a post about tarnishing him.

Blasphemy I tell you!
Actually..by the time they offer sheeted Sakic, Mess was already gone. I think that was their way of trying to fill the "void" left by Messier. And no one thought Colorado would match, but they did. Also..that was not the year Richter was a free agent. That might have been the next year or the year after that. But it wasn't the year Mess left. Also, when he came back, it was not Dolan he buried that hatchet with, it was Dave Checketts.

Lol..sorry, if all of that sounds like I'm correcting you..wasn't meant to be that way, but I just noticed your post and wanted to clarify ta few things...I unfortunately have TOO good a memory from that era.

As far as Messier as GM, I think he would be a better coach. Just feel his leadership is much more suited to run a bench, then to be an executive. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. We'll find out when Mess walks in to Glen's office one day with his coffee and bagel, sees his decomposing body sitting in the chair and goes, "Oh ****....guess I'm taking over as GM now!"

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