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Messier's Legacy (2nd Stint)

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Old
07-17-2011, 10:17 AM
  #26
White Plains Batman
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The Sakic offersheet was after Mess left. Anyone here remember the whole "Don't see Airforce One" (the Harrison Ford movie) angle? The Avs used that money to match because somehow they were related through a business investment. There was actually an article about it from Larry Brooks back in the day.

As for the second stint, I like to forget the dark ages. It was painful watching Dallas/Detroit/Colorado/Devils fight it out for those years and not even sniffing a part of it. Those teams were all disjointed. They had a few good young guys who had career altering injuries (Blackburn, Dvorak, Kloucek) a horrible defense, and the coaches didn't command the players respect.

Take this for what it's worth, but I was at a bar in Westchester when I was playing in cover bands (waay back in the early days of the post lockout) and the owner saw I had a Rangers hat on. We started talking about how good it was to have this team on the right track with youth, etc. He said that a few of the old assistant coaches used to come in before the lockout and mentioned how the team was full of arrogant vets who didn't listen and wouldn't take advice from the coaches and how the room was cliquish and divided.

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07-17-2011, 02:00 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
But is Mark Messier's legacy as a captain overshadowed by him not taking a paycut to stay with the Rangers and not test the free agent market?
Mark Messier is the single biggest reason your franchise is not 70 years and running without a Stanely Cup. He is the biggest reason why the chant of "1940" has been moot since 1994.

Given that, I'll leave it to you and perhaps a few other NYR fans to contemplate whether or not his legacy as NYR captain is overshadowed, tainted and other (excuse me) nonsense.

For most, the answer is, rightly, clear as day.

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07-17-2011, 02:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TonyTheGr8 View Post
Haha..good point. Unfortunately, none of us were even a thought in our parents mind...in fact, our parents weren't a thought in our grand parents mind!
speak for yourself. You might be a youngin' but I am not unfortunately

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07-17-2011, 02:13 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TonyTheGr8 View Post
Actually..by the time they offer sheeted Sakic, Mess was already gone. I think that was their way of trying to fill the "void" left by Messier. And no one thought Colorado would match, but they did. Also..that was not the year Richter was a free agent. That might have been the next year or the year after that. But it wasn't the year Mess left. Also, when he came back, it was not Dolan he buried that hatchet with, it was Dave Checketts.

Lol..sorry, if all of that sounds like I'm correcting you..wasn't meant to be that way, but I just noticed your post and wanted to clarify ta few things...I unfortunately have TOO good a memory from that era.

As far as Messier as GM, I think he would be a better coach. Just feel his leadership is much more suited to run a bench, then to be an executive. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. We'll find out when Mess walks in to Glen's office one day with his coffee and bagel, sees his decomposing body sitting in the chair and goes, "Oh ****....guess I'm taking over as GM now!"
No issues with me bro. Its been a long time now. Trying to remember all that nonesense that went on with the Rangers back in the days while I worked double shifts to pay the bills.. Sorry if the memory is a tad off. lol

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07-17-2011, 02:18 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
Going for more money was really a shame, and yes it tarnished his image somewhat. Not too much though, everyone still adores him and rightfully so.
He went for more money!!!???

Wow!!!!!

Never saw another professional athlete do that before.

My only complaint with Messier is that we took him back and that wasn't his fault.

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07-17-2011, 02:54 PM
  #31
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Messier's legacy should not be effected by the failure of his second stint with the Rangers. You can not blame an old man trying to recapture the magic of his younger years. It is unfortunate that it did not work out, but really he should always be remembered as the best Captain in Rangers history

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07-17-2011, 03:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
The Sakic offersheet was after Mess left. Anyone here remember the whole "Don't see Airforce One" (the Harrison Ford movie) angle? The Avs used that money to match because somehow they were related through a business investment. There was actually an article about it from Larry Brooks back in the day.
Totally remember it. Just started dating the now ex-wife. Told her I was gonna boycott the movie even though Harrison Ford was one of my favorite actors. She wanted to go see it cause her and her whole family were Devils fans..B*TCH!!

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Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
speak for yourself. You might be a youngin' but I am not unfortunately
Lol..I ain't that young, I'm 37.

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Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
No issues with me bro. Its been a long time now. Trying to remember all that nonesense that went on with the Rangers back in the days while I worked double shifts to pay the bills.. Sorry if the memory is a tad off. lol
Haha..it's all good. Like I said, I just have WAY too good of a memory of that time!

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07-17-2011, 03:16 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Mark Messier is the single biggest reason your franchise is not 70 years and running without a Stanely Cup. He is the biggest reason why the chant of "1940" has been moot since 1994.

Given that, I'll leave it to you and perhaps a few other NYR fans to contemplate whether or not his legacy as NYR captain is overshadowed, tainted and other (excuse me) nonsense.

For most, the answer is, rightly, clear as day.
You can argue influence, but for performance on the ice, Leetch was easily the biggest reason for that Cup.

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07-17-2011, 03:17 PM
  #34
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Messier's legacy is cemented, and the 2nd stint really doesn't matter - nor will it matter if he takes over some higher position within the organization and sucks at it (not that I personally see that happening). The iconic images of Messier jumping up and down and laughing in 94 will always personify the feeling we all felt when the 54 year curse died. That is his legacy, and it was so important that it really doesn't matter what else he has done or will do here, we are still - and forever will be - thankful for that one spectacular moment.

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07-17-2011, 05:16 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Mark Messier is the single biggest reason your franchise is not 70 years and running without a Stanely Cup. He is the biggest reason why the chant of "1940" has been moot since 1994.

Given that, I'll leave it to you and perhaps a few other NYR fans to contemplate whether or not his legacy as NYR captain is overshadowed, tainted and other (excuse me) nonsense.

For most, the answer is, rightly, clear as day.
Absolutely. The next season the Rangers were playing the Isles (on LI) and near the end of the first period the puck flew over the boards and the clock stopped at 19:40. From the crowd...silence. It truely was golden.

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07-17-2011, 05:21 PM
  #36
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You can argue influence, but for performance on the ice, Leetch was easily the biggest reason for that Cup.
It's a team sport--people shouldn't forget that Kovalev scored the first goal in Game 6against the Devils either. But, Messier pushed the young players (Leetch, Richter, Kovalev, Graves, etc), to another level and even when the coach quit on them, helped to push and pull them (on and off the ice) through every single obstacle. As far as I'm concerned, Messier will always be the messiah of the Rangers.

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07-17-2011, 05:24 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Mark Messier is the single biggest reason your franchise is not 70 years and running without a Stanely Cup. He is the biggest reason why the chant of "1940" has been moot since 1994.

Given that, I'll leave it to you and perhaps a few other NYR fans to contemplate whether or not his legacy as NYR captain is overshadowed, tainted and other (excuse me) nonsense.

For most, the answer is, rightly, clear as day.
I appreciate what he's done in 94, but he seems like a selfish character when he left for more cash and didn't stay loyal to the Rangers. Especially when fans were excited to see Messier and Gretzky re-united. People say he is the greatest leader the Rangers ever had, but he led to broken promises and disappointment in his final years. Although I may be pushing too much on an old man to carry the team, he should've never left for Vancouver.

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07-17-2011, 05:30 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
I appreciate what he's done in 94, but he seems like a selfish character when he left for more cash and didn't stay loyal to the Rangers. Especially when fans were excited to see Messier and Gretzky re-united. People say he is the greatest leader the Rangers ever had, but he led to broken promises and disappointment in his final years. Although I may be pushing too much on an old man to carry the team, he should've never left for Vancouver.
You might want to talk to Dave Checketts (President of the Garden at the time). He was the one who helped push Messier out--he didn't want to give in to Messier's demands and wouldn't match what Vancouver was willing to pay him. Messier went to the highest bidder--something that been debated endlessly on these boards since their inception. But, in the end, it wasn't just Messier.

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07-17-2011, 05:31 PM
  #39
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He's Mark Messier. Case closed.

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07-17-2011, 05:32 PM
  #40
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Im surprised so many people simply dismiss Messier's disasterous 2nd stint here. No argument of how important he was to the cup during the first go-around, but he came back with the same mentality; and that was a real problem when he was a shell of the player he once was.

Hes not the kind of guy that would accept a limited role, and he didnt. Not saying it was the major culprit, but it certainly added to the disfunction of the early 2000's.


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07-17-2011, 05:35 PM
  #41
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I really don't think he was so much a detriment though. The whole organization was a festering mess. Leetch and Mess were just caught in the storm.

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07-17-2011, 05:40 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
You might want to talk to Dave Checketts (President of the Garden at the time). He was the one who helped push Messier out--he didn't want to give in to Messier's demands and wouldn't match what Vancouver was willing to pay him. Messier went to the highest bidder--something that been debated endlessly on these boards since their inception. But, in the end, it wasn't just Messier.
I'm sorry but the Rangers brought in his best friend and former teammate in Gretzky to specifically play alongside him and than he leaves after only one season, this was pathetic.

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07-17-2011, 06:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
I'm sorry but the Rangers brought in his best friend and former teammate in Gretzky to specifically play alongside him and than he leaves after only one season, this was pathetic.
They presented him with a 1 year offer worth $4 million, and Checketts said, "How long do I have to pay for that Cup?"

In the meantime, he gave Patrick Ewing $68 Million. That 6'8" BUM who never won a freaking thing for the Knicks.

Not for nothing, but I consider that a little bit of a slap in the face.

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07-17-2011, 06:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TonyTheGr8 View Post
They presented him with a 1 year offer worth $4 million, and Checketts said, "How long do I have to pay for that Cup?"

In the meantime, he gave Patrick Ewing $68 Million. That 6'8" BUM who never won a freaking thing for the Knicks.

Not for nothing, but I consider that a little bit of a slap in the face.
Pretty sure that every single number in your post is wrong.

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07-17-2011, 06:49 PM
  #45
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Pretty sure that every single number in your post is wrong.
Ummm..no it's not.

Actually, the 1 year offer for Messier might have been $4.75 Million. So my bad on that one.

But the one for Ewing absolutely is not. I have hated the Knicks everyday since that happened. As much as I hate the Yankees and the Devils..and I'm not even a basketball fan!!

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07-17-2011, 08:02 PM
  #46
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The second stint really shouldn't matter and other than those great images of Mess with the FDNY Hat after 9/11 and breaking Howe's record; can be forgotten. The organization was just a disaster in those years. Some of it may or may not have been his fault but overall it was on Sather who until got the likes of Renney/Clark/Gorton and then Torts, didn't manage well.

How many stars played well past their prime in other sports and no one really mentions it. Does anyone ever bring up Babe Ruth on the Brooklyn Dodgers, Phil Simms on the Cleveland Browns, Moses Malone on the Spurs, etc.?

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07-17-2011, 08:35 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
I appreciate what he's done in 94, but he seems like a selfish character when he left for more cash and didn't stay loyal to the Rangers. Especially when fans were excited to see Messier and Gretzky re-united. People say he is the greatest leader the Rangers ever had, but he led to broken promises and disappointment in his final years. Although I may be pushing too much on an old man to carry the team, he should've never left for Vancouver.
"Broken promises and disappointment"?!

Dude, I'm not an NYR fan, but I lived in Manhattan and as an avid hockey fan had season tickets to MSG, 1992-1996. Trust me, that October day in 1991 when Neil Smith traded for Messier is THE CATALYST for why NYR is engraved on the Cup. I'd say he delivered BIGTIME on the single most important promise any player can make to any team.

Having the privilege of attending Game Seven in June '94 and recalling vividly the tears of joy, and decades of waiting, streaming down countless faces, I guarantee you that no one there that night shares your disillusionment with #11.

Put Messier's "faults" on a balance scale. Then put the Cup on the other side. Guess which way it is tipping.

PS - I'm curious why it is a bad thing to optimize one's earning potential by switching companies (teams) and seeking the highest salary possible. No disloyalty on Messier's part, whatsoever, any more than it would be disloyal for you or I to choose to move from one company to another. He got the job done in '94 - he owed NYR absolutely nothing once his contract expired, spring '97.

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You can argue influence, but for performance on the ice, Leetch was easily the biggest reason for that Cup.
That playoff season, without question. Leetch is rightly a Hall of Fame player and had in '94 one of the most dominating offensive postseason performances from the blueline this side of Robert Gordon Orr.

And, of course, multiple players contributed, as they must on any championship team.

But NYR's march to the Cup started in earnest once #11 was acquired. That was my point.


Last edited by Trottier: 07-18-2011 at 12:00 PM.
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Old
07-17-2011, 09:00 PM
  #48
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If i remember correctly, and I usually do, MSG gave Patrick Ewing a big contract even though Ewing never won anything and virtually kicked Messier out the door.

I always blamed that on the fact that Dave Checketts, who was the Knicks president and then became MSG's president, favored the Knicks over the Rangers.

Then when the team was a non-contender, they brought Messier back for ticket sales.

I was disappointed that Messier left but never blamed him. It was the feeling of ungratefulness on MSG's part that made him leave. Not the money.

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07-18-2011, 07:44 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by TonyTheGr8 View Post
Mark Messier is my favorite player of all time, and one of the greatest leaders in the history of this sport, and with out a doubt, the greatest Captain in Rangers history.

Yes, he stayed a little longer then he should have. Yes, he should've taken a pay cut to stay with the Rangers. But the Rangers also did everything they could to kick him out the door after the 96-97 season. Both sides were wrong, and both I think would even admit as much.

I don't think it really tarnishes his legacy too much, though. Still a beloved figure in this city.
I remember a game Messier played, in that 2nd tour with the Rangers, basically with one arm, and they won the game and he scored the GWG.

The Rangers were a lost organization at that time, but I have no doubt he played hard for them on the ice.

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07-18-2011, 09:53 AM
  #50
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Mark Messier's Legacy is his entire career with the New York Rangers and really his entire career, not just how it ended. Focus on that as his Legacy and you'll get it right.

You're wrong in calling Mark Messier
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Originally Posted by Duskfamous View Post
most beloved captain in New York Rangers history
Because Mark Messier is the most recognized Captain in the NHL or more correctly in HOCKEY HISTORY.

He's not referred to as "The Captain" for nothing you know.

In 2006-07 the NHL did bestow the honor of naming an award after him. How's that for his legacy?


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