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Doughty vs. Subban

View Poll Results: Doughty or Subban
Doughty 267 62.38%
Subban 161 37.62%
Voters: 428. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2011, 01:43 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I said he played like a top 10 the second half of the year and I maintain it.

You say he makes mistakes. He does, but the end result is what matters. It's not how you do it, it's that you do it.

Subban was playing against top notch opposition. He was producing pts as a top 10 dman offensively on an average team with a very defensive system. He was maintaining excellent micro stats. He was playing with a 3rd pairing dman. He was getting the job done playing sometimes 27 min in the playoffs. He outshined Chara in the first round by a mile IMO. And he did that all of the second half of the season consistently every game.

Did he make mistakes in his own end ? Did he show inexperience positionally ? Yes he did. But he got the job done despite that. And when I say got the job done.. I mean as good as any other dman in the league. You can't expect more than a guy going out there and eating top minutes against top opposition and putting up a lot of pts. When Subban is on the ice we spend most of our time in the opposition's other end. THAT is what matters. How he gets it done doesn't matter all that much. Some guys do it with smart sound positional defense and great stick work while Subban did it with speed, energy and desire like when he shadowed Crosby a year ago on that cool sequence. The end result was the same as any of the other really good dman out there : when Subban was on the ice, we didn't spend our time hemmed in our own zone. Unlike when Gill, a third pairing guy, was paired with Josh Gorges. So clearly it's not Gill's skills making the difference here.



To be clear I doubt Doughty continues to slip. Last year was probably as low as it's gonna get. But, there are still questions... questions that always get answered in Montreal.
I agree with your whole post and your side on the arguement, I've been ghost reading this thread for a while now without adding my two cents largely on the premise that you've pretty much been saying what I've been thinking. Subban without a doubt in my mind was playing like a Top 10 (Top 15 at worst) league wide in the second half of this seaso. No doubt in my mind about it. His penalty killing statistics are unbelievably solid (#2 in the league based on Ozy's stat post a while back), he also had 27pts in his last 43 games (January-April) which gives him a .627PPG%. Pro-rated that's 51pts. In his rookie-season. PK Subban is the kind of guy that HAS to be given the reigns, he has to be the best, when all the injuries went down J.Martin was put in a position where he HAD to give Subban the keys to the city and see what he could do and he DELIVERED THE GOODS.

By no means, like yourself, am I saying that Subban is better than Doughty right now. I'm not even saying he's going to be better in the long run, but I think Subban is a harder worker and more responsible person at this stage of their lives and that projects very well for him moving forward. Doughty still has time on his side to correct his mis-steps and take his game to an even higher level.

I wouldn't trade Subban for Doughty because right now he's cheaper, long-term he's likely cheaper, he's level-headed and I think the difference on the ice is not large enough to make-up the difference. I have never believed in a hockey player for the Habs as much as I believe in Subban, I know he is going to be the superstar we've lusted for forever and lead us to some very interesting results in the future. People are allowed to believe otherwise and I won't think less of them.

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07-17-2011, 02:24 PM
  #202
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I love the habs and P.k but i went with Doughty. He made the olympic team after all and its not like he beat out slouches.

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07-17-2011, 04:25 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Eeeeeh, you've been here since march? Is it cause I'm not a huge fan of the jersey? I follow the Habs closely.

As for this topic, I find it absolutely ridiculous. That's my opinion. I've shared many opinion with many Habs fans and participate on the Habs board because as I've said, I follow the team just as much as I do Ottawa. But this thread I find ridiculous and would love to see a similar thread on the main board. And it's not that Subban doesn't get any exposure, because he does on many networks, and if anything, I think Habs fans might not be exposed enough to Drew, which IMO, comes back to the lack of hockey (not to be confused with Canadiens) coverage provided by Montreal media.

That said, I realize that it does not apply in most cases on HF, as fans have a better understanding of the game here than anywhere else. Nonetheless, results like this would not fly anywhere else. PK is a very good young defensemen, I recognize that and enjoy watching him play, but saying PK is better than Doughty is just as crazy as if I were saying that Karlsson is better than Doughty.

And nice little complaint there. You had me tearing up.
What results? Doughty actually winning a poll on the Habs forum against essentially every Habs fan's favorite player by almost 100? Give me a break. It's not like Doughty is in another league in comparison to Doughty like you seem to insinuate. Subban, while admittedly older, had a better rookie season than Doughty and on an arguably worse team at that. He also took on the #1D role in his rookie season all the way through to the Stanley Cup Playoffs. It's not crazy to assume Subban could possibly be better than Doughty at some point in the future, which is essentially the argument for those who voted Subban in the poll.

And Subban is better than Karlsson in terms of his play on both ends of the ice. He is more physical, better skater, and better defensively. I think in a couple years, Subban and Doughty are going to be an even closer comparison than they are now. It is just immature of you to chastise Habs fans for simply "having a thread still up".

The results are what you would expect at this point with Doughty winning, and it has spurned some interesting conversation. I don't see why you have to make two posts in this thread whining about how dumb it is. I don't see it as anything other than trolling on your part.

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Old
07-17-2011, 05:42 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
What results? Doughty actually winning a poll on the Habs forum against essentially every Habs fan's favorite player by almost 100? Give me a break. It's not like Doughty is in another league in comparison to Doughty like you seem to insinuate. Subban, while admittedly older, had a better rookie season than Doughty and on an arguably worse team at that. He also took on the #1D role in his rookie season all the way through to the Stanley Cup Playoffs. It's not crazy to assume Subban could possibly be better than Doughty at some point in the future, which is essentially the argument for those who voted Subban in the poll.

And Subban is better than Karlsson in terms of his play on both ends of the ice. He is more physical, better skater, and better defensively. I think in a couple years, Subban and Doughty are going to be an even closer comparison than they are now. It is just immature of you to chastise Habs fans for simply "having a thread still up".

The results are what you would expect at this point with Doughty winning, and it has spurned some interesting conversation. I don't see why you have to make two posts in this thread whining about how dumb it is. I don't see it as anything other than trolling on your part.
Keep campaigning to paint me a troll all you want. I disagree as would most hockey fans. To me, this thread is just another case of huge homer'ism.

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07-17-2011, 06:37 PM
  #205
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Keep campaigning to paint me a troll all you want. I disagree as would most hockey fans. To me, this thread is just another case of huge homer'ism.
Most hockey fans would think Subban has no chance at ever catching Doughty? That's ridiculous and simply untrue. Doughty had one outstanding year and hasn't done much in the NHL other than that. Subban had the best rookie season for a defenseman in Habs history. You are overrating one player and underrating the other because of your apparent dislike of the Habs. You still haven't even indicated as to why you think this thread is such extreme homerism, which I find funny.

And I don't think most people need my painting you as a troll to see for themselves why you even bother posting here: To whine about threads and how stupid Habs fans are, but have no input until someone calls you out on it. Brilliant posting, man.

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07-17-2011, 07:08 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Most hockey fans would think Subban has no chance at ever catching Doughty? That's ridiculous and simply untrue. Doughty had one outstanding year and hasn't done much in the NHL other than that. Subban had the best rookie season for a defenseman in Habs history. You are overrating one player and underrating the other because of your apparent dislike of the Habs. You still haven't even indicated as to why you think this thread is such extreme homerism, which I find funny.

And I don't think most people need my painting you as a troll to see for themselves why you even bother posting here: To whine about threads and how stupid Habs fans are, but have no input until someone calls you out on it. Brilliant posting, man.
Dude... all you need is love

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07-17-2011, 07:14 PM
  #207
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Dude... all you need is love
I'm just a working class hero, sitting here watching the wheels go 'round. Imagine.

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Old
07-18-2011, 11:24 AM
  #208
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I just think that if you go with Doughty it's a gamble.

A gamble that the Montreal night life won't seduce him away from the hard work of being an actual top athlete. You can't make it on skill alone.

Then, you're also taking the chance that the attention from medias and fans doesn't affect his game.

Then you're taking the chance Doughty would work well in Martin's system.

We know Subban can work in those circumstances. Not only that, but we know Subban has done it as a rookie.

Most of us picking Subban are picking him because he's one of the few who has been able to realize his full potential in Montreal despite long odds.

People who come to Montreal need to be mature at an early age in the way they approach their professional career. They have to be smart enough to avoid the temptations of Montreal and to not be overwhelmed by the fact they become pop stars.

It's an entirely different thing than to play in LA.

Trading Subban for Doughty is a gamble that I'd not take considering the not so wide gap between the two. A gamble that Doughty would do better than Subban has right here in Montreal. We're not in a hockey simulator.

Half the fans from other teams don't know or understand that and the other half just wants to troll us so I could care less what other people think.



Thing is, he's a fine PKer, great leader in the room, and pretty consistent guy but do you really want him on your first 2 pairings ? Sure Subban-Gill is a solid pairing that's greater than the sum of Gill's parts but really... there would be quite a few other partners Subban could get who would be a lot better. Now... maybe his "father figure" qualities would be missed though. But Subban has been fine up to now, don't see why that wouldn't continue with/without Gill.



I said he played like a top 10 the second half of the year and I maintain it.

You say he makes mistakes. He does, but the end result is what matters. It's not how you do it, it's that you do it.

Subban was playing against top notch opposition. He was producing pts as a top 10 dman offensively on an average team with a very defensive system. He was maintaining excellent micro stats. He was playing with a 3rd pairing dman. He was getting the job done playing sometimes 27 min in the playoffs. He outshined Chara in the first round by a mile IMO. And he did that all of the second half of the season consistently every game.

Did he make mistakes in his own end ? Did he show inexperience positionally ? Yes he did. But he got the job done despite that. And when I say got the job done.. I mean as good as any other dman in the league. You can't expect more than a guy going out there and eating top minutes against top opposition and putting up a lot of pts. When Subban is on the ice we spend most of our time in the opposition's other end. THAT is what matters. How he gets it done doesn't matter all that much. Some guys do it with smart sound positional defense and great stick work while Subban did it with speed, energy and desire like when he shadowed Crosby a year ago on that cool sequence. The end result was the same as any of the other really good dman out there : when Subban was on the ice, we didn't spend our time hemmed in our own zone. Unlike when Gill, a third pairing guy, was paired with Josh Gorges. So clearly it's not Gill's skills making the difference here.



To be clear I doubt Doughty continues to slip. Last year was probably as low as it's gonna get. But, there are still questions... questions that always get answered in Montreal.
Just to be clear... we aren't talking about trading Doughty for Subban. It's an evaluation of talent and potential that's all. Doughty with Montreal or Martin isn't really what we're talking about here.

You'd go with Subban? I'm cool with that. I think there's valid reason to think that way based on his potential. He really is a special talent but that talent is very raw right now.

Some guys are never able to have the defensive instincts to make the right play. However, defense is a lot easier to teach than offense is and I believe that Subban will learn D as he develops. The thing that I think most people like about Doughty though is that he's already proven that he can play both offensively and defensively. If his career is anything like he's shown in his sophmore year, he's going to be sick. And it's shocking to think that he's actually younger than PK.
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Keep campaigning to paint me a troll all you want. I disagree as would most hockey fans. To me, this thread is just another case of huge homer'ism.
Some of it might be, but the question is far more legitimate than you're painting it to be. And again, Hab fans didn't make this poll... TSN did. And they did so because folks who understand the game of hockey look at PK and see that he has exceptional skills and raw talent. I'd take Doughty too but I think Subban is going to have a great career and it's closer than you think it will be.

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07-18-2011, 11:58 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Hab fans didn't make this poll... TSN did. And they did so because folks who understand the game of hockey look at PK and see that he has exceptional skills and raw talent. I'd take Doughty too but I think Subban is going to have a great career and it's closer than you think it will be.
Ah, you're taking the easy way out.

If Doughty turns out better, you can say you picked him, and if PK turns out better, you can say you warned folks it was closer than they think!

So I'll just boldly come out and say that my prediction is that PK Subban will be better, for a longer time, than Drew Doughty in this league.

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07-18-2011, 01:12 PM
  #210
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Please explain, because i can't see how anyone who knows anything about hockey would not go with Doughty at this point in their careers. If you're just being a complete homer then please tell us because that would be the only logical explanation for you picking Subban.
I'd take Subban as well, he has the ability to explode and change a game, and you can't teach that it's a prowess not a skill. Doughty might be the more safe pick however Subban is the sweet Chocolate man.

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07-18-2011, 01:41 PM
  #211
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I'd take Subban as well, he has the ability to explode and change a game, and you can't teach that it's a prowess not a skill. Doughty might be the more safe pick however Subban is the sweet Chocolate man.
Um.........I'm pretty sure Doughty can change a game with his explosiveness as well, part of the reason he was drafted only behind Stamkos actually.

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07-18-2011, 01:48 PM
  #212
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Um.........I'm pretty sure Doughty can change a game with his explosiveness as well, part of the reason he was drafted only behind Stamkos actually.
Not to the level Subban will.. just my 2 cents.

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07-18-2011, 06:35 PM
  #213
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Ah, you're taking the easy way out.

If Doughty turns out better, you can say you picked him, and if PK turns out better, you can say you warned folks it was closer than they think!

So I'll just boldly come out and say that my prediction is that PK Subban will be better, for a longer time, than Drew Doughty in this league.
Yeah, what am I thinking? One of these guys has to suck right? They can't both be great with one being better. I should've taken the 'hard' choice and predicted which one would fall off a cliff.

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07-18-2011, 06:56 PM
  #214
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Not to the level Subban will.. just my 2 cents.
I've seen Drew Doughty do spectacular solo efforts that Subban hasn't done yet in the NHL, not a slight at Subban because he's pretty darn great at rushing the puck, but Doughty is currently better than he is and, oh yeah, he's still younger.

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07-18-2011, 07:04 PM
  #215
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Yeah, what am I thinking? One of these guys has to suck right? They can't both be great with one being better. I should've taken the 'hard' choice and predicted which one would fall off a cliff.
Neither sucks of course, Doughty is certainly very good, but I think PK has an extremely high degree of determination and this will put him in better stead over the long haul.


But any team would be lucky with either one.

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07-18-2011, 07:34 PM
  #216
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I've seen Drew Doughty do spectacular solo efforts that Subban hasn't done yet in the NHL, not a slight at Subban because he's pretty darn great at rushing the puck, but Doughty is currently better than he is and, oh yeah, he's still younger.
go look at one of Subban's goal he got in his hat trick game...I believe it was the 2nd one.

for the record...I think today, you've got to go with Doughty just because he's been able to show more.

but, let's see where this is at next year around this time.

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07-18-2011, 07:36 PM
  #217
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Back on topic, and knock off the personal attacks.
Thanks for keeping the posts up though it was gold

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07-18-2011, 07:47 PM
  #218
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go look at one of Subban's goal he got in his hat trick game...I believe it was the 2nd one.

for the record...I think today, you've got to go with Doughty just because he's been able to show more.

but, let's see where this is at next year around this time.
That was a nice one, but if that's Subban's best, then I've got two for you to check out from Doughty.

Firstly, a goal wherein he reads the play perfectly, accepts a pass from his own blueline, splits two Phoenix players, controls the puck and then, at the last second, switches to his backhand to beat a surprised Labarbara.

Perhaps his best, though, was in a game against Dallas, wherein he took the puck from his own zone, split two forecheckers and forcing them to knock into each other, controls the puck in the neutral zone, slows down a bit before entering the Dallas zone, then turns on the jets to beat a Dallas Star on the outside, goes around the Dallas net, looks at the slot and twists his body to make a perfect pass that resulted in a one-timer goal. That wasn't puck-rushing: that was going Bobby Orr on the other team.

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07-18-2011, 07:57 PM
  #219
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That was a nice one, but if that's Subban's best, then I've got two for you to check out from Doughty.

Firstly, a goal wherein he reads the play perfectly, accepts a pass from his own blueline, splits two Phoenix players, controls the puck and then, at the last second, switches to his backhand to beat a surprised Labarbara.

Perhaps his best, though, was in a game against Dallas, wherein he took the puck from his own zone, split two forecheckers and forcing them to knock into each other, controls the puck in the neutral zone, slows down a bit before entering the Dallas zone, then turns on the jets to beat a Dallas Star on the outside, goes around the Dallas net, looks at the slot and twists his body to make a perfect pass that resulted in a one-timer goal. That wasn't puck-rushing: that was going Bobby Orr on the other team.
Hey, I think Doughty is awesome...great player, he struggled a bit last year but his second year in the NHL was nearly flawless. I used to stay up late to watch Kings games just to watch him play.

I was just responding to your post which said..

"I've seen Drew Doughty do spectacular solo efforts that Subban hasn't done yet in the NHL"

that's what I was responding too...not really interested in comparing goals by both of them. I don't think you can go wrong with either and I don't understand why choosing one or the other would cause so much discussion??

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07-18-2011, 07:59 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Endersoldier View Post
That was a nice one, but if that's Subban's best, then I've got two for you to check out from Doughty.

Firstly, a goal wherein he reads the play perfectly, accepts a pass from his own blueline, splits two Phoenix players, controls the puck and then, at the last second, switches to his backhand to beat a surprised Labarbara.

Perhaps his best, though, was in a game against Dallas, wherein he took the puck from his own zone, split two forecheckers and forcing them to knock into each other, controls the puck in the neutral zone, slows down a bit before entering the Dallas zone, then turns on the jets to beat a Dallas Star on the outside, goes around the Dallas net, looks at the slot and twists his body to make a perfect pass that resulted in a one-timer goal. That wasn't puck-rushing: that was going Bobby Orr on the other team.
Doughty has played a lot more games though. A really good player may only do a play like that once or twice a season especially a defenseman.

That having been said Subban has only played one actual season with us. So it's no wonder that's the only one in particular people can think of right now

I choose Subban by the way because I think he'll be the better player in the long run. Just my opinion but I think in as early as 3-4 years I'll be proven right.

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07-18-2011, 08:23 PM
  #221
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I saw Subban on TV lately and he really dosent seem to have put the same effort as last year. He looks fater, not as shaped. I'm afraid he wont have a better year this year and will probably even get worse.

I thought he would have worken harder and be at the gym everyday from day 1 after the elimination. It sucks to see him taking so many days (Haiti, F1, BAsket ball...etc) ... really disappointed.

I hope i'm wrong though

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07-18-2011, 10:19 PM
  #222
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I saw Subban on TV lately and he really dosent seem to have put the same effort as last year. He looks fater, not as shaped. I'm afraid he wont have a better year this year and will probably even get worse.

I thought he would have worken harder and be at the gym everyday from day 1 after the elimination. It sucks to see him taking so many days (Haiti, F1, BAsket ball...etc) ... really disappointed.

I hope i'm wrong though
Am I the only one missing the sarcasm in the post?

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07-18-2011, 10:40 PM
  #223
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I saw Subban on TV lately ... He looks fater, not as shaped.
That's how fat would have it.

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07-19-2011, 12:47 AM
  #224
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Hey, I think Doughty is awesome...great player, he struggled a bit last year but his second year in the NHL was nearly flawless. I used to stay up late to watch Kings games just to watch him play.

I was just responding to your post which said..

"I've seen Drew Doughty do spectacular solo efforts that Subban hasn't done yet in the NHL"

that's what I was responding too...not really interested in comparing goals by both of them. I don't think you can go wrong with either and I don't understand why choosing one or the other would cause so much discussion??
Pardon me, considering the subject matter I might have gotten a bit hasty. Besides, I did point out that Subban is a pretty great puck-controlling d-man.

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07-19-2011, 09:29 AM
  #225
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Pardon me, considering the subject matter I might have gotten a bit hasty. Besides, I did point out that Subban is a pretty great puck-controlling d-man.
This is going to sound odd, but I tend to think Subban doesn't get enough attention for his ability. He was at times dominant in the 2nd half, he had games where he flat out dominated and was the best player on the ice (often, without putting up any points).

He's still got to refine certain aspects of his game but that will come with experience...

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