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McD + for MPS - would you do it?

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07-18-2011, 11:55 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Panfork View Post
No. I would try to work out a deal including one of our young defenseman for MPS, but not McDonagh. I think McDonagh, in addition to the obvious shutdown ability he's already displayed, has some solid passing potential. He's shown at lower levels that he's a great breakout passer, and I'm anticipating it continuing into the NHL. I think our defense lacks that kind of thing right now. Staal, Girardi, Sauer, already in the NHL. Valentenko, McIlrath, Pashnin for the future. I don't think any of these guys are ever going to be especially good for breakout passes, save maybe Staal. And I believe it's very important to have players on the blueline that can do that. I think for the future, Erixon and McDonagh will be 2 defenseman who are solid as a rock on defense, and can make perfect on-the-tape passes out of the defensive zone. Del Zotto will probably be mostly good for those homerun passes, and powerplay QBing. Gotta hope Staal develops that skill, but I think he'll be more of a shooter than passer.

So, as for getting MPS, I'd love to have him, but not for McDonagh or Erixon, because I think they're both going to be exactly what our defense needs.
I agree with McD on the break out passes. I think Rozy might be the worst in the league at this and it consistently killed us. I remember right after he was traded to PHX, the first highlight I saw with him was a breakout pass at the winger's knees which was promptly countered and brought in for a goal. I do, however, think Sauer was excellent in this area as well, especially for a rookie. Good decision making and hard tape to tape breakouts. It's upgrades in these areas that sometimes go unnoticed by outsiders. But swapping the Rozys and Gilroys for Sauers and (hopefully) Erixons makes us a significantly better team if for no other reason that errors are being eliminated.

As for the trade, I don't see how a deal like this make sense for a rebuilding team. Why shuffle one developing prospect for another? Do you not trust your scouts? EDM is not down on MPS, and at this point they are just accumulating assets, rather than plugging specific holes or making position upgrades. It's one of those, 'well the value makes sense, but neither side would do', deals.

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07-18-2011, 11:55 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
How could you not do that trade. We are deep on D, Mcd is behind Sauer, Stall and probably Girardi in depth list and we have guys that could probably be better in Erixon etc. You guys must think Mcd is going to have some real jump next year because from his play last year idk how you dont make that trade. We have no prospects like MPS that is flashy, big hes the whole package and some serious potential to get more than 15 goals. Id take him in flash for Mcd. Stall or Sauer probably not but MPS is a very good prospect who i would love to have.

PEOPLE ARE REALLY OVERRATING MCD on this board. If u watched last season you would know that Sauer carried Mcd and was the real stud. Im not saying Mcd played bad but give me a break with the untradeable crap im hearing.
Idk what team you were watching but Mcd is not behing Sauer in the depth chart. It goes Staal, Girardi, Mcd, then Sauer. Mcd and Sauer were both rock solid two way players and to say that a 22 and 24yo player wont continue to grow and get better after their rookies seasons is ridiculous. Mcd has shown flashes of being the same type of player that Marc Staal is. And by the way Marc Staal is a #1 dman, and an all-star. You would trade him for a player who with all the hype about him was only able to put up 15g? Come on man!

We have plenty of our own center prospects in Anisimov and Stepan who have BOTH out scored MP and are both under 23yo! How can you say we dont have players like him? Id like to see how far sauer and Mcd progress this season along with the play of Erixon, before i make a rash decision in making a trade.

Are you even a rangers fan since you obviously have no idea how to spell Staals name which makes me seriously question everything else you said. I understand that its your opinion but ive never read anything i didnt feel dumber from reading except when i read this.

I would definatly trade anyone depending upon if it was for the right player. MP for Mcdonagh is a negative move by us. If you were talking about Taylor Hall, then it would be a different story.

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07-18-2011, 01:07 PM
  #28
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I know I am in the minority here, but I would do McD for MSP but only as a straight swap.

Scoring LW'er with speed and size? An advanced version of Kreider.

Then we still get to bring Kreider in next year?

I like McD, think he can be a solid 2nd pairing defenceman, but I also like our depth at that position and feel that we could use to add a bit more offensive talent to our forward group.

One for one, i do that deal.

McD+ for MSP, I'll pass.

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07-18-2011, 01:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I know I am in the minority here, but I would do McD for MSP but only as a straight swap.

Scoring LW'er with speed and size? An advanced version of Kreider.

Then we still get to bring Kreider in next year?

I like McD, think he can be a solid 2nd pairing defenceman, but I also like our depth at that position and feel that we could use to add a bit more offensive talent to our forward group.

One for one, i do that deal.

McD+ for MSP, I'll pass.
Please help me to understand why in gods name you would do that? MP proved close to nothing about all his hype. The guy had 15 goals and hes a CENTER not a LW. We have Anisimov and Stepan who BOTH had MORE pts than this guy and are the same age.

An advanced version of Krieder? Not a chance, they arent close to being the same player and if thats your arguement towards why we should trade Mcd for MP then its dumb considering we will have krieder up with us NEXT YEAR.

Mcdonagh IS ALREADY a solid 2nd pairing defensman. Do you believe he wont progress and get better? If thats what you think then yea by all means make the trade. But if thats what you think then you are sadly mistaken. Mcdonagh has just started to scratch the surface of his NHL career and i personally can see him becoming another Marc Staal like player.

Not interested in trading any of our young d until we find out who fits and everything and even then i wouldnt trade him for MP. the only guy on the oilers i would is taylor hall

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07-18-2011, 01:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Please help me to understand why in gods name you would do that? MP proved close to nothing about all his hype. The guy had 15 goals and hes a CENTER not a LW. We have Anisimov and Stepan who BOTH had MORE pts than this guy and are the same age.
Paajarvi is a winger.

He put up 15 goals coming straight out of the SEL as a 20 year old on the worst team in the NHL. Add in the fact that he's defensively responsible, and whether or not he lived up to "the hype" is meaningless. The bottom line is that he had a very successful rookie year.

I wouldn't deal McDonagh for him, as I already alluded to, but there's no need to undermine Paajarvi to make your point regarding McDonagh.

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07-18-2011, 01:30 PM
  #31
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People also forget Sauer could become oft-injured again.

I think McD will become a legit #1 D.

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07-18-2011, 01:37 PM
  #32
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McDonagh has top pairing potential. We only started to see what McD is capable of last season. I think Paajarvi is redundant unless Kreider doesn't pan out. Pass on this one.

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07-18-2011, 01:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Paajarvi is a winger.

He put up 15 goals coming straight out of the SEL as a 20 year old on the worst team in the NHL. Add in the fact that he's defensively responsible, and whether or not he lived up to "the hype" is meaningless. The bottom line is that he had a very successful rookie year.

I wouldn't deal McDonagh for him, as I already alluded to, but there's no need to undermine Paajarvi to make your point regarding McDonagh.
I dont mean to undermine him and im sure he will be a solid player for years to come. But that does not change the fact that it was actually a disappointing year for him. Just because he played on a bad team doesnt explain why he wasnt better. There are lots of players who play on horrible teams that put up better stats. Someone has to score on that team and if your getting tons of minutes you should be doing better. There were plenty of rookies who are the same age or younger who have had more successful rookie seasons than him even on bad teams. Look hes a good player but NOT worth Mcdonagh PERIOD.

Mcdonagh will continue to get better and better with each season and being a 21yo while going against some of the better teams players and still being one of our best dmen says alot about him. I think Mcdonagh has the ability to be a Staal-lite player. Depending upon how his offense comes, i would say a Letang player.

Like i said.. If the Oilers were offering Hall for Mcdonagh then id be down.

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07-18-2011, 01:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I'd do it.

I think MPS is underrated, he is a year younger than MDZ and he was caught on a donut team with a ton of wingers last season that struggled mightly. He was definitely rushed into the NHL, since he couldn't be eased in.

I like his game a lot. He plays with a ton of speed and always takes the puck to the net. He is not a top notch sniper nor playmaker, but when he hits his prime he will bring a boatload of speed to his team and a good solid 70 pts or something like that. I think he would compliment what we have really well. I could definitely see him fitting in with BR in the same manner as Loui Eriksson did -- and then you could add 20 pts to the number mentioned above.

As regards to McD, the kid is a stud for sure. But, I wonder if there isn't a risk for us to overrate him a bit. Like in I think there is a bigger risk that he will become a very strong nr 4 then a avg nr 2.
MPS for MDZ + 2nd I'd definitely consider

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07-18-2011, 01:39 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I dont mean to undermine him and im sure he will be a solid player for years to come. But that does not change the fact that it was actually a disappointing year for him. Just because he played on a bad team doesnt explain why he wasnt better. There are lots of players who play on horrible teams that put up better stats. Someone has to score on that team and if your getting tons of minutes you should be doing better. There were plenty of rookies who are the same age or younger who have had more successful rookie seasons than him even on bad teams. Look hes a good player but NOT worth Mcdonagh PERIOD.

Mcdonagh will continue to get better and better with each season and being a 21yo while going against some of the better teams players and still being one of our best dmen says alot about him. I think Mcdonagh has the ability to be a Staal-lite player. Depending upon how his offense comes, i would say a Letang player.

Like i said.. If the Oilers were offering Hall for Mcdonagh then id be down.
it wasnt that bad of a year for him. new country, different rink size, different game, on a craptastic team, with, imho, a mediocre coach. not surprising at all.

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07-18-2011, 01:44 PM
  #36
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it wasnt that bad of a year for him. new country, different rink size, different game, on a craptastic team, with, imho, a mediocre coach. not surprising at all.
i didnt mean that he had a bad year, sorry if it came out that way. From all the hype that this kid was getting and to play 80 games on the top 2 lines of any team he should have been better. The oilers arent a bad team, they are just a very young team but with TONS of young talented forwards. I think he had a solid year but there are other guys i would rather go after than him if we are giving up Mcdonagh.

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07-18-2011, 01:50 PM
  #37
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I would do either MacDonagh or MDZ for MPS. Ballsy move. Talent for talent but a move that pretty much sets the core.

McD may eventually be a top pair guy (I'm thinking more 2nd pair) but MPS could be a 40 goal guy. Players like that don't grow on trees.


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07-18-2011, 01:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I dont mean to undermine him and im sure he will be a solid player for years to come. But that does not change the fact that it was actually a disappointing year for him.
He wasn't a "disappointment" unless you were holding him to the ridiculous standards set by the fans last offseason. A 15/19/34 statline is about in line with what people should have been expecting from him.

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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Just because he played on a bad team doesnt explain why he wasnt better. There are lots of players who play on horrible teams that put up better stats. Someone has to score on that team and if your getting tons of minutes you should be doing better.
Paajarvi was averaging 15:23 TOIPG last season. 1:50 PPTOI. He really wasjn't playing a "ton" of minutes in any sense.

These were the lines he played on the majority of last season at ES:

% Of TimeSituationCenterRWLW
17.89%EVGAGNER,SAMOMARK,LINUSPAAJARVI,MAGNUS
7.33%EVHORCOFF,SHAWNEBERLE,JORDANPAAJARVI,MAGNUS
6.36%EVGAGNER,SAMJONES,RYAN91PAAJARVI,MAGNUS

Relatively run of the mill linemates, excluding his short time with Eberle.

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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
There were plenty of rookies who are the same age or younger who have had more successful rookie seasons than him even on bad teams. Look hes a good player but NOT worth Mcdonagh PERIOD.
Not many players, at his age, have come over from the Swedish Elite League and fit in comfortably right away. Paajarvi has the tools to be Marian Hossa-esque -- it's just a matter of adjustment and finding his niche.

His perceived "value" is similar to McDonagh -- it just doesn't make sense for the Rangers to trade McDonagh for Paajarvi, given the circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Mcdonagh will continue to get better and better with each season and being a 21yo while going against some of the better teams players and still being one of our best dmen says alot about him. I think Mcdonagh has the ability to be a Staal-lite player. Depending upon how his offense comes, i would say a Letang player.
I actually made the Letang comparison myself. They're somewhat similar, but not as similar as I once thought.

If he hits his ceiling, he'll be Ryan Suter-lite. Otherwise, Dan Hamhuis/Fedor Tyutin like.

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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Like i said.. If the Oilers were offering Hall for Mcdonagh then id be down.
I think everyone here would be content with Hall.

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07-18-2011, 02:05 PM
  #39
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I would offer McD easily for MPS. Take a look at these:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Paajarvi played with a big level of suck in his first season in the NHL. Watching him play, he'll create plays, he's super fast, great at backchecking and he can find his way to the net for the greasy garbage goals. I think people in this thread are underrating him by just looking at his stat card. He is just a rookie in his first full NA pro season and he's played more games this year than ever. Give him some time and him and Hall will have a good 1-2 LW punch.

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07-18-2011, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Defensemen>>>>>Forwards.

Rangers can wait the year for Kreider for the 15 goals MPS would contribute.

And can sign Prospal for the immediate production.

The answer isn't trading a young defenseman that comes cheap and proves to be incredibly solid, and showed signs he could be a two way defenseman.

McDonagh's value>>>MPS.

I know people love goals, but preventing them is equally as important. And you can't just replace a legitimate top four defenseman. None of our defense prospects are anywhere close to what McDonagh provided at the NHL level.

If anything, you trade the defense prospects/Del Zotto for the forward.

Do not break up the core of defensemen. They're going to be one of the main reasons for any of this team's successes.
let`s wait for kreider to put up more than 15 goals in college before we can expect 15 at the nhl level

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07-18-2011, 02:49 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Paajarvi is a winger.

He put up 15 goals coming straight out of the SEL as a 20 year old on the worst team in the NHL. Add in the fact that he's defensively responsible, and whether or not he lived up to "the hype" is meaningless. The bottom line is that he had a very successful rookie year.

I wouldn't deal McDonagh for him, as I already alluded to, but there's no need to undermine Paajarvi to make your point regarding McDonagh.
I'm not using this as an argument but I'd like to hear your response. MDZ put up 37 points in his rookie season which is more than Paajarvi. How would you compare their successful rookie years and is there any difference? i.e. Paajarvi could have a sophmore slump too - would his value suffer in your opinion and by how much?

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07-18-2011, 02:58 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I'm not using this as an argument but I'd like to hear your response. MDZ put up 37 points in his rookie season which is more than Paajarvi. How would you compare their successful rookie years and is there any difference? i.e. Paajarvi could have a sophmore slump too - would his value suffer in your opinion and by how much?
MPS was on a short leash with Renney as coach, and started shifts the same in offensive zone vs. center, defensive zone. MDZ got away with murder and started over 58% in the offensive zone while getting spoonfed PP time and shifts against lesser QUALCOMP.

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07-18-2011, 03:09 PM
  #43
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I'm not using this as an argument but I'd like to hear your response. MDZ put up 37 points in his rookie season which is more than Paajarvi. How would you compare their successful rookie years and is there any difference?
Few things:
  • Del Zotto was getting 1st PP unit time on a PP that was red hot tp start the season. Paajarvi never had that opportunity.

  • It's hard to compare their seasons because of the vast difference in position between the two players; you could say that Paajarvi had a "disappointing" season using the idea that a defenseman outscoring him is a negative thing, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.

  • Del Zotto was coming out of the OHL; Paajarvi out of the SEL. It takes an elongated period of adjustment for a player coming out of a European league, especially at Paajarvi's age, to get comfortable at the NHL level/pace in comparison to a player coming out of juniors.

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i.e. Paajarvi could have a sophmore slump too - would his value suffer in your opinion and by how much?
I don't think that Paajarvi is really a prime candidate to "sophomore slump" for a few reasons:
  • He never really garnered much attention; when a rookie has an explosive season, one of the reasons that causes them to put up points is the fact that opposing defensive teams don't really key in on them as much as they would for a proven scorer. That is what happened to Del Zotto as the season went on in 09-10, and he never adjusted. Paajarvi isn't really subject to that, so I would say he is more poised to "breakout" than "slump".

  • He'll most likely be given more offensive opportunities next season; he was brought along slowly by the Oilers' coaching staff; one of the major reasons Paajarvi never really "wowed" last year. He needed to be brought along slowly to adjust to the pace of the NHL game, and the difference in ice size between international rinks and North American rinks/.

If he did "slump", his perceived "value" would certainly go down. And, if he did, I would be even more assertive with my dislike in the idea of trading McDonagh for Paajarvi; that's usually the common reaction, though.


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07-18-2011, 03:09 PM
  #44
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Wouldn't deal any of the NHL defensemen (Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Sauer, Erixon). Our defense corp. is much too important to the success of this team.

Del Zotto i would reluctantly deal in a package, if we were getting back an NHL ready top six forward.

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07-18-2011, 03:22 PM
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let`s wait for kreider to put up more than 15 goals in college before we can expect 15 at the nhl level
David Booth scored 8 goals in his Sophomore season at Michigan State, and scored 7 goals in his Junior season.

He scored 30 in the NHL, and hasn't scored less then 22 in a full season other then the season he got concussed.

Most goals he scored in NCAA was his Freshman season, he scored 17 goals.

Christian Dube scored 52 goals and 145 points in the QMJHL in one season. He played 33 NHL games.

Thomas scored 50+ goals last year in the OHL, he may never reach 30 in the NHL once.

Stats in the NCAA and stats in the CHL do not determine what kind of player they will be at the Pro level.

Kreider will be an NHL player, and productive because of his physical abilities. Not because he did or did not score a ton in NCAA. Which he probably will this year anyway.

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07-18-2011, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Please help me to understand why in gods name you would do that? MP proved close to nothing about all his hype. The guy had 15 goals and hes a CENTER not a LW. We have Anisimov and Stepan who BOTH had MORE pts than this guy and are the same age.

An advanced version of Krieder? Not a chance, they arent close to being the same player and if thats your arguement towards why we should trade Mcd for MP then its dumb considering we will have krieder up with us NEXT YEAR.

Mcdonagh IS ALREADY a solid 2nd pairing defensman. Do you believe he wont progress and get better? If thats what you think then yea by all means make the trade. But if thats what you think then you are sadly mistaken. Mcdonagh has just started to scratch the surface of his NHL career and i personally can see him becoming another Marc Staal like player.

Not interested in trading any of our young d until we find out who fits and everything and even then i wouldnt trade him for MP. the only guy on the oilers i would is taylor hall
Brian Boyle has already pointed out some deficiencies in your post so i will not do the same.

The bottom line is that with all the fan fare that our system gets it's still pretty thin with regards to talente dplayers up front that project out to be top 6 forwards.

Kreider and Thomas...after that it's pretty thin at best.

Zuccs is not long for this team. It's an opinion, but He's not a bottom six guy and I do not believe he can carry the load as a top 6 guy. I could see him flourishing as a decent player on a very bad team, but not someone you want to rely on.

And Carl Hagelin is a perfect 3rd/4th line forward.

MPS, just like Kreider, has WJ18, WJC, WC success. He's come into the NHL in a tough spot up there in Edmonton and posted better numbers than Anisimov did in his first year in the NHL AND Anisimov had 2 AHL seasons to get used to the style of play)

Your attempt at diminishing what he's done at the NHL level falls short.

Also, I personally believe that his ceiling is higher than McD's.

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07-18-2011, 03:53 PM
  #47
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In a vaccuum, I'd definitely consider it.

In reality, unless we're getting an NHL-caliber defenseman back, or have one lined up in free agency, then no.

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07-18-2011, 04:08 PM
  #48
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Tough call. I like McDonagh as a #3 guy on our blue line, but MPS has very good offensive potential. Ultimately I think Edmonton would want too much in addition to McDonagh. He's more valuable to us than he is to them.

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07-18-2011, 04:28 PM
  #49
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I've liked Paajarvi a lot since before his draft year, and always thought he would develop into at the very least a great top 6 forward. Watching him play, you can see that he has all the tools to be a first liner in the league..

Having said that, after watching McD this year, i'm convinced that McD will eventually be a 1st pairing Dman... he's just extremely smart and has great physical tools like his size and speed.. He's great at reading the play and stepping up to intercept the pass or take out the guy. He is more than solid in his own zone for a 22 year old rookie. And towards the end up the season, when he became more comfortable and experienced, he started adding offense to his game. He is very young, and will develop well with experience. If it weren't for Staal, he would be our number 1 in a couple of years- so i really think NYR will end up with 2 top line defense pairings: 2 #1s in Staal and McD, and 2 #2s in Girardi and Saur.. as early as the 2012-2013 season. I wouldn't give that up for Paajarvi.

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07-18-2011, 06:28 PM
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Chalfdiggity3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRantLftyC19 View Post
I've liked Paajarvi a lot since before his draft year, and always thought he would develop into at the very least a great top 6 forward. Watching him play, you can see that he has all the tools to be a first liner in the league..

Having said that, after watching McD this year, i'm convinced that McD will eventually be a 1st pairing Dman... he's just extremely smart and has great physical tools like his size and speed.. He's great at reading the play and stepping up to intercept the pass or take out the guy. He is more than solid in his own zone for a 22 year old rookie. And towards the end up the season, when he became more comfortable and experienced, he started adding offense to his game. He is very young, and will develop well with experience. If it weren't for Staal, he would be our number 1 in a couple of years- so i really think NYR will end up with 2 top line defense pairings: 2 #1s in Staal and McD, and 2 #2s in Girardi and Saur.. as early as the 2012-2013 season. I wouldn't give that up for Paajarvi.
Id like to second this. This is exactly why i wouldnt trade Mcdonagh for Paajarvi. I think Paajarvi will be a 2nd line player in this league. Id much rather keep our d corps as it is and see what Kreider has before making this deal. I believe Krieder has the skills to be just as good or better. So im willing to wait to see what we have in our young dmen before trading them off, while waiting a year or two would allow us to find out who fits on our team and who is ready to step up and it may make other players available to trade to get top 6 talent like - Girardi

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