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Old
07-17-2011, 10:07 AM
  #51
Kane One
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Originally Posted by sbjnyc View Post
I think one of the biggest misnomers in gambling is that you need to be good at math. I never heard of any game where you need to evaluate a line integral to win.

Back on topic, I used to always find myself in Vegas in early September and always plunked down about $50 on the Rangers to win the cup. As I recall, they need to fill out a tax form if you win more than $1,200 so you may want to split your bets up to avoid that wonderful problem.
I never said you need to be good at math to be good at gambling. You need to be good at math to count cards, since you have to do simple math but very quickly.

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07-17-2011, 02:27 PM
  #52
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I never said you need to be good at math to be good at gambling. You need to be good at math to count cards, since you have to do simple math but very quickly.
Counting cards isn't math. Even art history majors can count cards (no offense to any art history majors out there but I'm sure you're used to it by now).

Anyway, I really don't mean to be pedantic - just trying to steer people who aced freshman calc away from losing their dog walking money. Too many people think they can beat the system but in the long run nearly everyone loses. And most of those who actually do win do so by dumb luck anyway because they're betting at the wrong limit. It's kind of like poker on TV. It looks so easy when you can see everyone's hole cards.

But if you can do it successfully then more power to you - not like I'm trying to defend the casinos or anything. I just stick to full pay video poker machines with a progressive. A lot easier on the noggin.

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07-17-2011, 05:53 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by sbjnyc View Post
Counting cards isn't math. Even art history majors can count cards (no offense to any art history majors out there but I'm sure you're used to it by now).

Anyway, I really don't mean to be pedantic - just trying to steer people who aced freshman calc away from losing their dog walking money. Too many people think they can beat the system but in the long run nearly everyone loses. And most of those who actually do win do so by dumb luck anyway because they're betting at the wrong limit. It's kind of like poker on TV. It looks so easy when you can see everyone's hole cards.

But if you can do it successfully then more power to you - not like I'm trying to defend the casinos or anything. I just stick to full pay video poker machines with a progressive. A lot easier on the noggin.
I think you should actually learn how to count cards before you call it dumb luck, not math, and betting at the wrong limit. Also, if anyone thinks poker looks easy because they show everyone's cards through the camera are idiots, no offense if you are one of them.

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07-17-2011, 06:21 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
I think you should actually learn how to count cards before you call it dumb luck, not math, and betting at the wrong limit. Also, if anyone thinks poker looks easy because they show everyone's cards through the camera are idiots, no offense if you are one of them.
Learning how to count cards is easy. Good luck winning by counting cards against 5 decks.

Betting smart is hard.

Until you get out there and earn a living by gambling nothing matters. Saying you know you can do it because you are good at math or you can beat your friends is a far cry from earning a living by doing it professionally.

Not saying you can't do it. Am saying that you appear to be cocky at something you have never done.

I paid my way through grad school by betting a system in football that I came up with. I made a buddy of mine about a half-million using the same system. Then he thought he understood it and lost it and more. I stopped because it ate me up inside to spend every waking hour agonizing over it.

The most important thing about gambling is self-control. I've probably met a dozen people who can do it, out of thousands who thought they knew how to do it.

Gambling is a 24/7 job, more so than any other profession. Being a professional gambler and having a real life outside of gambling is near impossible. It can be done, but I can only think of one or two people who have accomplished that, that I have ever met.

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07-17-2011, 08:45 PM
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Learning how to count cards is easy. Good luck winning by counting cards against 5 decks.

Betting smart is hard.

Until you get out there and earn a living by gambling nothing matters. Saying you know you can do it because you are good at math or you can beat your friends is a far cry from earning a living by doing it professionally.

Not saying you can't do it. Am saying that you appear to be cocky at something you have never done.

I paid my way through grad school by betting a system in football that I came up with. I made a buddy of mine about a half-million using the same system. Then he thought he understood it and lost it and more. I stopped because it ate me up inside to spend every waking hour agonizing over it.

The most important thing about gambling is self-control. I've probably met a dozen people who can do it, out of thousands who thought they knew how to do it.

Gambling is a 24/7 job, more so than any other profession. Being a professional gambler and having a real life outside of gambling is near impossible. It can be done, but I can only think of one or two people who have accomplished that, that I have ever met.
Plenty of the websites that taught me how to count cards gives another formula to use to bet wisely and when to bet x amount, depending on the count. I also never said I'm good at counting cards because I'm good at math. I said I think I will eventually be good at it, because I'm good at math. Counting cards is easy and I think anyone could do it if they try really hard, but the hard part is having to remember the count and even more important is counting very very quickly and not getting distracted by all the noises and sexy ladies at the casino. It's pretty much all about multitasking. I also don't want to count cards for a living. I like to learn weird things that plenty of people can't do because it's just interesting. Like I also want to learn how to pick locks and crack safes. Not that I want to go around breaking into homes and going through peoples safes, it's just a hobby learning how to do weird ****.

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07-18-2011, 02:12 AM
  #56
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Actually to be a professional gambler math is pretty important. By no means do you need to be an expert at it though. Obviously you gotta know basic math to calculate your payouts are right. Where math really helps is when you're calculating the strategy for some game. (programming skills come into play there too).

As far as time spent in the casinos it's hardly a 24/7 job. I been doing for a year now, made about as much as my last "real" job and on average put in 9 days a month. It's not an easy 9 days though. Most of those days I'm playing 2 shifts and am exhausted after a 3-5 day trip. (so in reality it's like working 18 days a month just squeezed into 9 days time). Most people who do it for a living aren't card counters either. I don't do card counting at all. I'd rather put my time and effort into learning new games and/or calculating the strategies for games where the charts aren't easy to obtain. And of course it always sucks to play 2 8 hour shifts for 4 days and end up down 10k. Or even worse spend whole days scouting and not finding any games to play

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07-18-2011, 02:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
Actually to be a professional gambler math is pretty important. By no means do you need to be an expert at it though. Obviously you gotta know basic math to calculate your payouts are right. Where math really helps is when you're calculating the strategy for some game. (programming skills come into play there too).

As far as time spent in the casinos it's hardly a 24/7 job. I been doing for a year now, made about as much as my last "real" job and on average put in 9 days a month. It's not an easy 9 days though. Most of those days I'm playing 2 shifts and am exhausted after a 3-5 day trip. (so in reality it's like working 18 days a month just squeezed into 9 days time). Most people who do it for a living aren't card counters either. I don't do card counting at all. I'd rather put my time and effort into learning new games and/or calculating the strategies for games where the charts aren't easy to obtain. And of course it always sucks to play 2 8 hour shifts for 4 days and end up down 10k. Or even worse spend whole days scouting and not finding any games to play
My 24/7 comment does not refer to casino time. Professional gamblers I have known that support themselves spend almost all their waking hours at least thinking about it. It's the most grinding profession I have ever seen.

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07-18-2011, 02:31 PM
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The bookie I worked for had a book written partially about him. A movie based on the book is coming out later this year. It is called Lay the Favorite.
Cast:
Bruce Willis
Dink Heimowitz
Laura Prepon
Vince Vaughn
Catherine Zeta-Jones

AWESOME

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07-18-2011, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
Cast:
Bruce Willis
Dink Heimowitz
Laura Prepon
Vince Vaughn
Catherine Zeta-Jones

AWESOME
Bruce is portraying my friend. Cjz is his wife.

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07-18-2011, 06:30 PM
  #60
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My 24/7 comment does not refer to casino time. Professional gamblers I have known that support themselves spend almost all their waking hours at least thinking about it. It's the most grinding profession I have ever seen.
Most pros I know stop thinking about it the moment they leave the casino, a lot of them play at a much higher level then me as well. Some of them earn as much as 40K sometimes in a single 8 hour shift. I'm usually trying to get around 1K per day I spend at the casino.

The ones who think about it all the time probably suck at it and are probably better off delivering pizzas. I know of a bunch of people like this as well. They're making at best 15 bucks an hour at the table (and they're not beginners betting low to learn the ropes, they been doing this for years and have never moved up). I don't respect or associate with those people. It's one thing to be making 15 bucks an hour at a casino game if you're a recreational player or you're just getting started, but it's downright stupid to try to do that for a living.

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07-18-2011, 08:34 PM
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Most pros I know stop thinking about it the moment they leave the casino, a lot of them play at a much higher level then me as well. Some of them earn as much as 40K sometimes in a single 8 hour shift. I'm usually trying to get around 1K per day I spend at the casino.

The ones who think about it all the time probably suck at it and are probably better off delivering pizzas. I know of a bunch of people like this as well. They're making at best 15 bucks an hour at the table (and they're not beginners betting low to learn the ropes, they been doing this for years and have never moved up). I don't respect or associate with those people. It's one thing to be making 15 bucks an hour at a casino game if you're a recreational player or you're just getting started, but it's downright stupid to try to do that for a living.
I couldn't disagree more. Out of the two or possibly three that I personally know that have made it, all are millionaires many times over, but they can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about some gambling angle.

The ones who have done the best are the ones who specialize in sports. I know a few doing well in poker. For casino games, I'm not sure I know one person who has a great steady income. They are the most prone to getting killed, at times. Casinos are built on the backs of those that play casino games, and while it's the slot players who do most of the losing, a scant few are getting wealthy playing casino games. They used to kill back in the day.

One of my favorite guys I met in the gambling world was an innovator and he got rich before the bookies knew what was going on. Before the Internet, he would call Chicago every day to get a weather report, specifically, which direction the wind was blowing. He made millions betting over/under in Cubs games based on wind direction. Before the books figured it out, he was retired in his 30's.

In sports you can find real edges if you work hard enough and are prepared to grind. Poker, you can definitely win at, but such a small percentage of them are living large.

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07-18-2011, 09:55 PM
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I couldn't disagree more. Out of the two or possibly three that I personally know that have made it, all are millionaires many times over, but they can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about some gambling angle.

The ones who have done the best are the ones who specialize in sports. I know a few doing well in poker. For casino games, I'm not sure I know one person who has a great steady income. They are the most prone to getting killed, at times. Casinos are built on the backs of those that play casino games, and while it's the slot players who do most of the losing, a scant few are getting wealthy playing casino games. They used to kill back in the day.

One of my favorite guys I met in the gambling world was an innovator and he got rich before the bookies knew what was going on. Before the Internet, he would call Chicago every day to get a weather report, specifically, which direction the wind was blowing. He made millions betting over/under in Cubs games based on wind direction. Before the books figured it out, he was retired in his 30's.

In sports you can find real edges if you work hard enough and are prepared to grind. Poker, you can definitely win at, but such a small percentage of them are living large.
I know nobody (personally) that makes a living through sports or poker.

All the people I know make a living playing casino table games, and none of them are card counters.

I know almost every angle there is for table games. Some are illegal (such as card marking, collusion with a dealer) so I won't get involved with those, and for the rest, I don't really need to think about it. Sure, I'll spend an hour or two sometimes to memorize a strategy chart, or spend a few days working on a computer simulation for a play. I've spent time practicing my skills, but that has to be done at the casino on a real game. For casino table games, you really need to be AT the casino watching the game being dealt to think about the angles. I know most of the angles, but I'm only proficient at a few of them, but all the angles are relatively straightforward, it's just a matter of developing any skills required for them. I specialize in hole carding, and even there there's categories, and specific skills for each one. Eg. There's games dealt by hand, out of a shoe, or out of a machine. Each one requires a different technique. Then there's scouting, the ability to evaluate a game, and of course the ability to actually play the game, know the strategy for the game, and most importantly figure out how to play the game without the dealers/bosses getting wise to what's going on. For example, in blackjack, if you have a hard 19 and the dealer has a 20, what do you do? The answer is to stand and eat the loss. Other decisions like how much to bet, etc, avoiding problem people. Like one of the first things I do when I walk onto the floor is look for people who know who I am and what I do so I can make sure to avoid them.

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07-18-2011, 10:12 PM
  #63
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I know nobody (personally) that makes a living through sports or poker.

All the people I know make a living playing casino table games, and none of them are card counters.

I know almost every angle there is for table games. Some are illegal (such as card marking, collusion with a dealer) so I won't get involved with those, and for the rest, I don't really need to think about it. Sure, I'll spend an hour or two sometimes to memorize a strategy chart, or spend a few days working on a computer simulation for a play. I've spent time practicing my skills, but that has to be done at the casino on a real game. For casino table games, you really need to be AT the casino watching the game being dealt to think about the angles. I know most of the angles, but I'm only proficient at a few of them, but all the angles are relatively straightforward, it's just a matter of developing any skills required for them. I specialize in hole carding, and even there there's categories, and specific skills for each one. Eg. There's games dealt by hand, out of a shoe, or out of a machine. Each one requires a different technique. Then there's scouting, the ability to evaluate a game, and of course the ability to actually play the game, know the strategy for the game, and most importantly figure out how to play the game without the dealers/bosses getting wise to what's going on. For example, in blackjack, if you have a hard 19 and the dealer has a 20, what do you do? The answer is to stand and eat the loss. Other decisions like how much to bet, etc, avoiding problem people. Like one of the first things I do when I walk onto the floor is look for people who know who I am and what I do so I can make sure to avoid them.
I would have done it for a living if I didn't feel so consumed by it. The money was great but I felt it was negatively affecting the rest of my life. The only game I consistently beat over a 4-year period was football. I made good money on hockey and decent money at baseball. Had no clue about basketball, but some of the best sports gamblers I have met made a living on college basketball.

If anyone is interested, the way I beat pro football was by playing a relatively simple system that I devised that was based on the theory that most people lose betting on pro football. Here it is:

Most importantly, know it inside out. Really study it. Once you feel that you really understand all that you can possibly understand, before the weekly lines come out, figure out what you think the lines should be. When they come out, if you are off by 1.5 points or more, bet against your instinct.

For example, you think Jets should be minus 7 over the Giants. Line comes up 5.5. Instinct says bet the Jets. I bet the Giants. The thinking behind this is that books are trying to push you in a direction or there is info out there that we are not in on.

The tough part about doing this is that once you get really good at handicapping football, there are often weeks where there are no games to bet, and most gamblers can't handle not gambling. An average week probably had one play, although I remember one week where there was four.

I don't have a clue how this would play out now, but it was probably around a 70% winner when I was doing it.

Another theory, along similar lines, is to pick up a paper like the Post. If they have ten handicappers picking, and 7 or more go one way, I go the other. I only played around with that one, but it did pretty well. It's based on the same theory that most people lose.

All this paid for grad school and kept me employed as a private tout for a couple of years. A few friends have told me to get back into it, but I'm pretty content with what I do now.

Clearly you know your game. I hope it works out for you longterm. I have tremendous respect for gamblers who handle it in a scientific manner, as you have demonstrated here.

If you are able to balance it all you might be one of the folks who can pull the whole thing off. Good luck.

I know you don't need advice from me, but the one thing is that I hope you can keep a normal relationship going while being a professional gambler. I couldn't. Gambling took a lot of my brainpower and energy. Relationships take more of both.


Last edited by chosen: 07-18-2011 at 10:29 PM.
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Old
07-19-2011, 01:03 PM
  #64
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I can see why sports would be a 24/7 thing since there's almost always something going on.

Casino games is more like a regular job then sports (of course both are nowhere even close) since going to the casino is basically going to work. I see going to the casino as going to the office more or less.

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