HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

McD + for MPS - would you do it?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-18-2011, 07:42 PM
  #51
Chalfdiggity3
Registered User
 
Chalfdiggity3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Brian Boyle has already pointed out some deficiencies in your post so i will not do the same.

The bottom line is that with all the fan fare that our system gets it's still pretty thin with regards to talente dplayers up front that project out to be top 6 forwards.

Kreider and Thomas...after that it's pretty thin at best.

Zuccs is not long for this team. It's an opinion, but He's not a bottom six guy and I do not believe he can carry the load as a top 6 guy. I could see him flourishing as a decent player on a very bad team, but not someone you want to rely on.

And Carl Hagelin is a perfect 3rd/4th line forward.

MPS, just like Kreider, has WJ18, WJC, WC success. He's come into the NHL in a tough spot up there in Edmonton and posted better numbers than Anisimov did in his first year in the NHL AND Anisimov had 2 AHL seasons to get used to the style of play)

Your attempt at diminishing what he's done at the NHL level falls short.

Also, I personally believe that his ceiling is higher than McD's.
I read Boyles remarks and i do see his points but there are plenty of flaws with his comments too. You can list all the stats that you want but there are always players that have sophmore slumps. Or have started hot and never amounted to much.

Quote:
He wasn't a "disappointment" unless you were holding him to the ridiculous standards set by the fans last offseason. A 15/19/34 statline is about in line with what people should have been expecting from him.
I never said that MPS didnt have a good year, im just saying that with all the hype surrounding him, i just dont think he will be the player everyone is overhyping him to be. I think hell end up a very good 2nd line LW.

Quote:
Paajarvi was averaging 15:23 TOIPG last season. 1:50 PPTOI. He really wasjn't playing a "ton" of minutes in any sense.

These were the lines he played on the majority of last season at ES:
The kid still averaged 17-18min a game, thats still solid 2nd line minutes, or top end 3rd line minutes depending upon how well he is playing.

Umm idk about you but I thought Omark and Gagner were supposed to be talented offensive players? not sure how you can say he didnt play with quality players.

Stepan still had 45pts with the likes of Wolski and Zucca as his linemates. Not real

Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Brian Boyle has already pointed out some deficiencies in your post so i will not do the same.

The bottom line is that with all the fan fare that our system gets it's still pretty thin with regards to talente dplayers up front that project out to be top 6 forwards.

Kreider and Thomas...after that it's pretty thin at best.

Zuccs is not long for this team. It's an opinion, but He's not a bottom six guy and I do not believe he can carry the load as a top 6 guy. I could see him flourishing as a decent player on a very bad team, but not someone you want to rely on.

And Carl Hagelin is a perfect 3rd/4th line forward.

MPS, just like Kreider, has WJ18, WJC, WC success. He's come into the NHL in a tough spot up there in Edmonton and posted better numbers than Anisimov did in his first year in the NHL AND Anisimov had 2 AHL seasons to get used to the style of play)

Your attempt at diminishing what he's done at the NHL level falls short.

Also, I personally believe that his ceiling is higher than McD's.
How can you compare Anisimov and MPS with their success before coming here. They both played in DIFFERENT leagues lol.

I personally have alot of faith that Krieder and Thomas will actually both pan out. I love both of their skill sets, determination, work ethic, and heart. Adding them to the likes of Richards, Gaborik, Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Anisimov. Thats easily a great top 6 in the nhl.

I agree that we are pretty thin at the forward spot for us but we have alot of Boom/Bust players that we have in the system and just drafted like St Croix, McClogan, Miller, Hagelin, and so on.

Would i love to have MPS, sure but not at the expense of Mcdonagh who i see as someone that could rival Staal for our #1 spot.

Chalfdiggity3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 07:43 PM
  #52
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYGBleedBlueNYR View Post
People also forget Sauer could become oft-injured again.

I think McD will become a legit #1 D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Eat Crow View Post
McDonagh has top pairing potential. We only started to see what McD is capable of last season. I think Paajarvi is redundant unless Kreider doesn't pan out. Pass on this one.
Sure would be nice if that's how he turns out. Word on the street is that Erixon will be better than McDonagh. Talk about a sick D if both of those guys reach that level.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 07:51 PM
  #53
HatTrick Swayze
Tomato Potato
 
HatTrick Swayze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,581
vCash: 500
It may sound cliche but I firmly believe that defense wins championships.

I like MPS as a player and would make a strong offer for him if he were available...but I think McDonagh is too important of a piece for our defensive core. Personally, I see him as having Staal-like upside as a top-pairing shutdown guy (obviously they both have different strenghts & weaknesses). We also realistically have noone to replace him in the pipeline.

__________________
"Here we can see the agression of american people. They love fighting and guns. when they wont win they try to kill us all." -HalfOfFame
HatTrick Swayze is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 08:13 PM
  #54
satrabyk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Idk what team you were watching but Mcd is not behing Sauer in the depth chart. It goes Staal, Girardi, Mcd, then Sauer. Mcd and Sauer were both rock solid two way players and to say that a 22 and 24yo player wont continue to grow and get better after their rookies seasons is ridiculous. Mcd has shown flashes of being the same type of player that Marc Staal is. And by the way Marc Staal is a #1 dman, and an all-star. You would trade him for a player who with all the hype about him was only able to put up 15g? Come on man!

We have plenty of our own center prospects in Anisimov and Stepan who have BOTH out scored MP and are both under 23yo! How can you say we dont have players like him? Id like to see how far sauer and Mcd progress this season along with the play of Erixon, before i make a rash decision in making a trade.

Are you even a rangers fan since you obviously have no idea how to spell Staals name which makes me seriously question everything else you said. I understand that its your opinion but ive never read anything i didnt feel dumber from reading except when i read this.

I would definatly trade anyone depending upon if it was for the right player. MP for Mcdonagh is a negative move by us. If you were talking about Taylor Hall, then it would be a different story.

Where in my post did i say i would trade Staal for MPS. I said i would trade Mcd or Girardi but not Sauer or Staal as i think they are the best D man we have going forward. The fact that you rate Sauer behind Mcd only shows that your pretty dumb yourself not to mention u mention Taylor Hall with Mcd which is funny.

MPS reminds me a little like Jagr when he broke into the league and id love to have him but i wont bother arguing with you as you obviously love Mcd. Everyones got there opinion and mine is id would do that trade in a second but im sure no one on the Edm forum nor would the manager accept it. Im not going to say Mcd is going to be a bad player but im more sold on Sauer than i am Mcd and from what i watched he was the better D man last year. But hey u think differently and will see how it goes.

satrabyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 08:19 PM
  #55
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
It may sound cliche but I firmly believe that defense wins championships.

I like MPS as a player and would make a strong offer for him if he were available...but I think McDonagh is too important of a piece for our defensive core. Personally, I see him as having Staal-like upside as a top-pairing shutdown guy (obviously they both have different strenghts & weaknesses). We also realistically have noone to replace him in the pipeline.
Its not really cliche, though.

Its the truth.

And special teams and faceoffs are critical.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 10:17 PM
  #56
NYRantLftyC19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,222
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
The fact that you rate Sauer behind Mcd only shows that your pretty dumb yourself
He's not the only one who believes McD is ahead of Sauer. Sure, Sauer's defensive game is a bit more polished, as it should be because he has been playing the pro game longer... But to me it is obvious that McD has a higher potential than Sauer. Especially offensively.

It would be interesting to see a poll of who NYR fans think will be better, McD or Sauer..

NYRantLftyC19 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 10:38 PM
  #57
Whoot Whoot
Biased-NYR-Homer
 
Whoot Whoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 2,683
vCash: 500
McD - why all the love? He's our 4th best dman.

Whoot Whoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 10:44 PM
  #58
TheRedViper
Registered User
 
TheRedViper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Niagara
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
McD - why all the love? He's our 4th best dman.
3rd best IMO, and I think he'll be surpassing Girardi pretty soon

TheRedViper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 10:47 PM
  #59
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
McD - why all the love? He's our 4th best dman.
Because we acquired him as a throw in on the Gomez deal, and he slid right in on the 2nd pairing as a rookie where he had a very solid season. At only 22 years of age there's no reason to assume we've seen his best hockey yet.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2011, 10:57 PM
  #60
BlueshirtBlitz
Rich Nash
 
BlueshirtBlitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 19,060
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
McD - why all the love? He's our 4th best dman.
He's our 3rd best d-man who played spectacularly in his rookie season after about half a season in the AHL (his first pro experience out of college) who has tremendous tools.

BlueshirtBlitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 06:03 AM
  #61
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 16,680
vCash: 500
One thing I didn't realize about McD is that the kid checks in at 220+ lbs.

Skates the way he skates, has the capabilities to play an honest offensive game, if he can add some snarl to his game, I think I may re-consider the thought process of his availability.

pld459666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 06:09 AM
  #62
JeffMangum
~anger~
 
JeffMangum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Listening to music
Country: United States
Posts: 58,067
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
McD - why all the love? He's our 4th best dman.
He'll be the 2nd best by the end of next season.;

__________________
Soon.
JeffMangum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 06:40 AM
  #63
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,828
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Its not really cliche, though.

Its the truth.

And special teams and faceoffs are critical.
Nah, its false for sure.

I don't know how many teams that has been strong defensively and had all the intanglibles but has been ridiculously dominated by "better" teams after the lockout. The teams that win the momentum battle wins the series basically 9/10 times these days. That's a fact.

Win the momentum battle and you'll win the series. That is what it is about these days.

Ola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 08:12 AM
  #64
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 16,680
vCash: 500
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Nah, its false for sure.

I don't know how many teams that has been strong defensively and had all the intanglibles but has been ridiculously dominated by "better" teams after the lockout. The teams that win the momentum battle wins the series basically 9/10 times these days. That's a fact.

Win the momentum battle and you'll win the series. That is what it is about these days.
it's usually the teams that have the better defences that win those momentum battles that you speak of.

The point is that teams with better defences can better control and withstand potential momentum shifts thus allowing them to sustain and prolong their own shifts.

pld459666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 08:15 AM
  #65
Orr Nightmare
Registered User
 
Orr Nightmare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
McD - why all the love? He's our 4th best dman.
That is a ridiculous statement. I would question from that statement if you understand hockey at all.

Orr Nightmare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 08:21 AM
  #66
E Nixson
Powered by Intel
 
E Nixson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 916
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
That is a ridiculous statement. I would question from that statement if you understand hockey at all.
Ha, really?

Just how ridiculous is it? I want to hear the logic behind this accusation.

E Nixson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 09:05 AM
  #67
JeffMangum
~anger~
 
JeffMangum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Listening to music
Country: United States
Posts: 58,067
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I read Boyles remarks and i do see his points but there are plenty of flaws with his comments too. You can list all the stats that you want but there are always players that have sophmore slumps. Or have started hot and never amounted to much.
I never really listed any stats regarding why he wouldn't "slump". It's just that your typical sophomore slump is due to the attention that said rookie garners from his outstanding season. Paajarvi wasn't really on anyone's radar by the end of last season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I never said that MPS didnt have a good year, im just saying that with all the hype surrounding him, i just dont think he will be the player everyone is overhyping him to be. I think hell end up a very good 2nd line LW.
Why? A similar player, Nikolai Kulemin, had a very similar statline, but he did so while being 2 years older than Paajarvi.

Besides -- no one has really said anything different(other than your typical over hypers). His ceiling is a ~60-~70 point, two-way winger. That statement still rings somewhat true -- it was just he didn't live up to his rookie "hype". The "hype" some of these players get is ridiculous -- I wouldn't use it to determine any player's future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
The kid still averaged 17-18min a game, thats still solid 2nd line minutes, or top end 3rd line minutes depending upon how well he is playing.
He averaged 15:23 a game. When he was given more ice-time at the end of the year, this is what his game log looked like:

GameGAP+/-PPSHSSHFTTOI
Apr 10 '11 EDM @ COL01100032216:28
Apr 08 '11 MIN @ EDM000-10012017:23
Apr 06 '11 EDM @ CGY10100052418:43
Apr 05 '11 VAN @ EDM10101062420:09
Apr 02 '11 EDM @ VAN10100032417:11
Mar 31 '11 EDM @ MIN011-10031916:46
Mar 29 '11 LAK @ EDM000-10032016:18
Mar 26 '11 CGY @ EDM10100062619:22
Mar 24 '11 EDM @ STL000-10011918:27
Mar 22 '11 EDM @ NSH00000042016:40
Mar 19 '11 COL @ EDM01110082522:54
Mar 17 '11 PHX @ EDM101-20122121:54

This was the most ice-time he averaged throughout the entire season; before these games, he hadn't played over 20 minutes yet in any game. He had 8 points in these 11 games -- and if you arrange the chart by shifts, you see the more shifts he got, the more consistent he was in his point production. He was also, assuredly, more comfortable on NA ice and at the NHL pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Umm idk about you but I thought Omark and Gagner were supposed to be talented offensive players? not sure how you can say he didnt play with quality players.
Omark is basically a more flashy, less defensively responsible version of Zuccarello. Very skilled, but he was in the same boat as Paajarvi -- except for the fact that he's 3 years older. He put up nearly identical numbers to Zuccarello, too. As for Gagner -- he's a slow, ~45 point center. He isn't exactly a dynamo out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Stepan still had 45pts with the likes of Wolski and Zucca as his linemates. Not real
Stepan was coming out of the North American developmental system -- Paajarvi out of the European system. The ice being different, and the pace of the game being different, are very important factors that you have to take into account when evaluating these 20 year old players.

Also, Stepan's combinations:

FrequencySituationCenterRWLW
15.59%EVSTEPAN,DEREKZUCCARELLO,MATSWOLSKI,WOJTEK
5.66%EVSTEPAN,DEREKGABORIK,MARIANPROSPAL,VACLAV
5.46%EVSTEPAN,DEREKCALLAHAN,RYANDUBINSKY,BRANDON

He also averaged over a minute more of ice-time than Paajarvi -- getting more PP time as well.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 07-19-2011 at 09:12 AM.
JeffMangum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 09:10 AM
  #68
Orr Nightmare
Registered User
 
Orr Nightmare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New England Hockey View Post
Ha, really?

Just how ridiculous is it? I want to hear the logic behind this accusation.
If you can't deduct his value by watching his game then there is nothing I say that will change your mind.

I will say this...his skating ability and defensive positioning is on par or better than Staal's at the same stage of their careers.

Orr Nightmare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 09:51 AM
  #69
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Nah, its false for sure.

I don't know how many teams that has been strong defensively and had all the intanglibles but has been ridiculously dominated by "better" teams after the lockout. The teams that win the momentum battle wins the series basically 9/10 times these days. That's a fact.

Win the momentum battle and you'll win the series. That is what it is about these days.
It's not false.

Shut down the opposition's top player(s), and capitalize on opportunities is how you win.

You can't get into a track meet with any team and hope for a "momentum swing". No team is going to form their gameplan around something superficial like that. You can plan to frustrate a team in the neutral zone and take advantage of their mistakes when they make them.

The momentum swing is capitalizing on an opportunity.

You win with goaltending, defense, critical faceoffs, and special teams.

That's why teams add a guy like Dominic Moore for a second round pick every trade deadline.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 09:51 AM
  #70
Boom Boom Geoffrion*
CarciLOL
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NYC
Country: Greece
Posts: 7,552
vCash: 500
I maybe the minority here, but I'd seriously consider it, as long as the "+" wasn't significant.

You guys are heavily underrating MPS. While I think McD is going to be a fantastic dmen, we have guys in our system who can replace him.

Staal-Girardi
Erixon-Sauer
Del Z-Snuffleuffigus

Boom Boom Geoffrion* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 09:56 AM
  #71
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I maybe the minority here, but I'd seriously consider it, as long as the "+" wasn't significant.

You guys are heavily underrating MPS. While I think McD is going to be a fantastic dmen, we have guys in our system who can replace him.

Staal-Girardi
Erixon-Sauer
Del Z-Snuffleuffigus
The minor issue there being "who" and "when". MDZ may need another year for all we know. And Snuffleuffigus isn't even signed. lol Assuming Erixon can slide right into McDonagh's spot (which is possible although obviously not guaranteed) that leaves us with a lot of question marks on the third pair going into the season.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 10:03 AM
  #72
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
We absolutely do not have anyone in the system that can replace McDonagh.

We absolutely have guys in the system that will provide what Paajarvi would.

You DO NOT trade young, cheap, top four caliber NHL defensmen unless you're getting elite talent in return. Paajarvi, although good, is not and will not be elite.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 10:03 AM
  #73
Boom Boom Geoffrion*
CarciLOL
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NYC
Country: Greece
Posts: 7,552
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
It's not false.

Shut down the opposition's top player(s), and capitalize on opportunities is how you win.

You can't get into a track meet with any team and hope for a "momentum swing". No team is going to form their gameplan around something superficial like that. You can plan to frustrate a team in the neutral zone and take advantage of their mistakes when they make them.

The momentum swing is capitalizing on an opportunity.

You win with goaltending, defense, critical faceoffs, and special teams.

That's why teams add a guy like Dominic Moore for a second round pick every trade deadline.


Are you the acclaimed author of this book? Because you often act like a know-it-all. You have all the answers and everything is as simple as black/white.

There are a hundred different ways for teams to be successful. It's usually a combination of things that team does. Usually winning teams have balance, and depth. They can defend. They can score. They maintain puck-possession. They limit mistakes.

MPS could very well impact this team more than McD. You need to look yourself in the mirror and acknowledge the obvious. There are guys and girls here who've been watching hockey before you were even conceived.

Boom Boom Geoffrion* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 10:05 AM
  #74
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
We absolutely do not have anyone in the system that can replace McDonagh.

We absolutely have guys in the system that will provide what Paajarvi would.

You DO NOT trade young, cheap, top four caliber NHL defensmen unless you're getting elite talent in return. Paajarvi, although good, is not and will not be elite.
Not sure that's true. While it's too early to know for sure, everything I've heard about Erixon leads me to believe that he can be just as good, if not better.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2011, 10:12 AM
  #75
Boom Boom Geoffrion*
CarciLOL
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NYC
Country: Greece
Posts: 7,552
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
The minor issue there being "who" and "when". MDZ may need another year for all we know. And Snuffleuffigus isn't even signed. lol Assuming Erixon can slide right into McDonagh's spot (which is possible although obviously not guaranteed) that leaves us with a lot of question marks on the third pair going into the season.
I'm not convinced MDZ will replicate his rookie season. He could very well need 'more time'. We don't know what we have in Erixon, yet. And yes, Snuffleuffigus hasn't even been signed.

I'm just evaluating this proposal from a depth POV. We don't have many prospects like MPS. What we do have are a number of LD. Third pairing dmen aren't hard to procure.

It's an interesting proposal, imo.

Boom Boom Geoffrion* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.