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Will Savard get paid if he retires?

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Old
07-19-2011, 10:15 AM
  #1
tarheelhockey
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Will Savard get paid if he retires?

This came up in the Marchand thread and I'd like a clearer answer if possible.

If Marc Savard retires due to his concussion issues, will insurance pay off the remainder of his contract? Otherwise it would seem he has a compelling reason to stay on the roster in spite of his injury.

The real motivation behind the question is to calculate Boston's cap space -- so, even if insurance doesn't cover it, would there be a way for the Bruins to pay him off without carrying the cap hit?

Obviously there are a lot of possible scenarios here, but I'm most interested in knowing whether the Bruins are stuck with his cap hit.

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07-19-2011, 10:35 AM
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jessebelanger
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I believe the most likely scenario is that he would report to camp each year and be put on the LTIR. IIRC a flyer did this..I forget who.

The result is that

A) Savard gets his money

B) Bruins are provided cap relief (putting him on LTIR allows them to go over the cap by an amount equal to his cap hit)

C) Bruins would have insurance on the contract of some form, so they would have some financial relief.

I'm sure KDB will chime in shortly with the exact scenario

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07-19-2011, 10:37 AM
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I'm 99% sure that if he retires due to injury, he will get paid by insurance. Whether that's the full amount of the contract or some portion of it, I don't know.

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07-19-2011, 10:39 AM
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coldsteelonice84
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It's insurance. He wouldn't get the full amount due to PCS. If he had his throat slit by a skate, yeah, he likely would get the full amount.

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07-19-2011, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
It's insurance. He wouldn't get the full amount due to PCS. If he had his throat slit by a skate, yeah, he likely would get the full amount.
Doubt he'd have a need for any money if his throat was slit by a skate.

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07-19-2011, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jessebelanger View Post
B) Bruins are provided cap relief (putting him on LTIR allows them to go over the cap by an amount equal to his cap hit)
Only if they are right at the upper limit at the time they place him on LTIR. If they are 3 mil under the cap to start the season and place him on LTIR, they can only exceed the cap by about 1 mil.

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07-19-2011, 10:49 AM
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Isn't Boston's cap space the same either way? If he retires, the contract is off the books. If he doesn't, then Boston throws him on LTIR as soon as the season starts.

All Savard does is takes away most of our 10% over the cap off-season cushion, right? Something Boston is nowhere near using anyways.

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07-19-2011, 10:51 AM
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Hatcher and Rathje did that in Philly. At this point in his career he may want to try and pull a Sullivan. Get healthy for a year, train hard for a year, play again in 3 seasons.

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07-19-2011, 11:06 AM
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There's a limit in years, I believe it's 4 years, so he isn't retiring anytime soon.

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07-19-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafssss View Post
Doubt he'd have a need for any money if his throat was slit by a skate.
Say that to Zednik or Malarchuk, they still probably needed the money.

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07-19-2011, 12:38 PM
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Background (C&P from the Marchand thread tarheel's referring to), first the post that spawned it and then my reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Most, if not all, insurance providers have this thing about not covering a pre existing condition.

The fact is that since Concussions have become so common in sports and quite the topic in the NHL specifically, I would be very surprised if there was not some language in the coverage that spoke to limited to potentially no payout should the player have to retire due to a concussion related injury.

Additionally, the issue between Savard and Berard are as different as night and day.

Totally different situations as one had never been injured (Berard) and the other has had 3 documented concussions (Savard).
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Maybe kdb or another CBA expert can chime in on this, but the way I understand CBA Article 23.4, Savard will receive his full salary if he retires after sustaining a career-ending injury, regardless of whether or not it was a pre-existing condition. Since it's not a 35+ contract it won't count against the Bruins' cap during the season -- not exactly the same as if he spent the season on LTIR but close enough.

That said, what (I believe?) is unspecified in the CBA and would be more relevant to your point is whether the Bruins or their insurer would be on the hook for covering that salary. It's possible the insurer may use a pre-existing condition clause and Mr. Jacobs would have to pick up the tab.
If Savard retires he's not just retiring, he'll retire because of a career-ending injury and will claim so. Here's the actual CBA article I was referring to, bolded parts mine --

Quote:
23.4 A Player under an SPC who is disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player by reason of an injury sustained during the course of his employment as a hockey Player, including travel with his team or on business requested by his Club, shall be entitled to receive his remaining salary due in accordance with the terms of his SPC for the remaining stated term of his SPC as long as the said disability and inability to perform continue but in no event beyond the expiration date of the fixed term of his SPC, which fixed term shall in no event be deemed to include any option period related to a playing season after the League Year in which the injury occurred, with the exception of a Player option year that has already vested. In consideration of payment of such salary, as well as payments made by the Club to fund the Hospital, Major Medical and Dental Plan, payments made by the Club to provide Career Ending Disability Insurance and other consideration, the Player does hereby covenant that in the event he files a claim under such Career Ending Disability Insurance (unless such claim is not paid), he personally releases and will release [a bunch of people..] from any and every additional obligation, liability, claim or demand whatsoever for such salary or arising out of such injury or the treatment thereof, including without limitation liability in tort, and extending to all damages, whenever arising. [some procedural stuff] Such a Player who is thus permanently disabled from performing as a hockey Player and as a result is compelled to retire prematurely from the League and who is entitled to benefits that had vested under the pension plan or plans described in Article 21 hereof shall be entitled to have additional contributions made on his behalf in accordance with the requirements of such pension plan and Article 21 until such contributions, together with contributions previously made on his behalf, would represent contributions for five (5) playing seasons in the aggregate. The funds to provide such additional contributions shall be paid from the National Hockey League Players' Emergency Assistance Fund. Any disagreement as to disability or inability to perform shall be determined conclusively by doctors of the Club and of the Player, and, in the event said doctors are unable to agree, by an independent doctor selected by said doctors, pursuant to the provisions in Section 17.7.
(edit -- essentially same words are written in exhibit 1 of the CBA, i.e. the SPC)

So if he retires he's getting paid for sure, whether the Bruins or their insurer foot the bill depends on their policy I assume.

As for what happens with cap number, I would assume retirement due to a career-ending injury is the same as retirement of any other non-35+ contract, i.e. off the books, so not counted during the summer and not part of LTIR/bonus overage calculations/etc.

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07-19-2011, 01:09 PM
  #12
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once he retires he goes onto insurance... insurance pays like if someone has a car accident... its there in case something bad happens

but if the bad thing goes away then the insurance company says ok, your insurance is over.

like suppose you get a bad back from a car accident. then you collect insurance. but if they catch you doing stuff that indicates your back got better, they cut you off

insurance companies dont like paying fraudulent claims

the nature of concusions is that no one knows when they could suddenly become better. no doctor can tell you that this concusion will be forever. they can tell you that its more likely future concusions will come more frequently and be more severe.

a player might retire after his contract expires if he cant get another contract. paul kariya recently did that. then he spoke out against concusions he did wait a full year to do it. i would suggest he wanted to come back. he waited a year because he wanted to come back. even with his feelings about concusions, he still waited a year and make a very hard decesion not to come back. if he had a signed contract, he would have just collected the money

no one retires while they have a valid contract from a concusion

keith primeau didnt... he collected his money. then he spoke out.

they all collect their money. there is a huge risk to savard if he retires that he could possibly pass a physical a year down the road. he could suddenly lose everything if he retires. however if he stays on the ltir he doesnt have to play anyhow... he stays home anyhow. there is no risk on the ltir if he suddenly gets healthy. his contract still is valid.

i have no idea if savard will play again... no idea how well he will play if he does play... but i am sure if he retires with this contract in place from this concusion that he will be the only one to ever do it. dont expect it to happen or you will be disappointed i guess.

myself... i hope he gets healthy. he didnt do anything to deserve this health problem. and he was a valuable member of my team before the injury.

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07-19-2011, 02:45 PM
  #13
kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessebelanger View Post
I believe the most likely scenario is that he would report to camp each year and be put on the LTIR. IIRC a flyer did this..I forget who.

The result is that

A) Savard gets his money

B) Bruins are provided cap relief (putting him on LTIR allows them to go over the cap by an amount equal to his cap hit)

C) Bruins would have insurance on the contract of some form, so they would have some financial relief.

I'm sure KDB will chime in shortly with the exact scenario
Yup.

The Bruins are responsible for paying the remainder of Savard's salary - they may have insurance to cover all or part of it.

Savard will not retire - ie file to be placed on the "Voluntarily retired List" - if he did, he would forego his remaining $$$.

Instead he will simply be placed on LTIR for the remainder of his SPC (a la Rathje).

Virtually all insurance is under a group policy through the League. Not every contract is insured.

Teams typically only insure 5-7 SPCs through the League's group insurance plan. Coverage kicks in after 30 games. Coverage only covers 7 years max.

Additional insurance through secondary markets is prohibitively expensive.

C&P from another long term contract thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piffle
Pretty sure that insurance for player contracts already doesn't go past about 7 years, and that the team covers anything past that. Anyone confirm?
Yup - insurance through the league covers at most 7 years. Private insurance is prohibitively expensive.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/123913

Quote:
NHL Insurance Plan Covers Player Contracts For Seven Years

The NHL's insurance plan insures player contracts for seven years, and "beyond that, if the player gets hurt, the team is on the hook for the full amount of his contract," according to Luke DeCock of the Raleigh NEWS & OBSERVER. As part of the plan, which the NHL purchases through New York-based insurance broker BWD Group, NHL teams are "required to insure a handful of players through a 'temporary total disability' program administered by the league." Each team "pays a premium based on the salaries of its five highest-paid players, but is free to allocate that coverage how it wishes." NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said that "typically, a team will extend coverage to as many as seven players."
...
DeCock noted individual teams "are free to pursue additional coverage, but the heavy premiums make it a losing proposition." Rutherford said that "seeking private insurance to cover a longer deal is prohibitively expensive."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
After the maximum period covered by NHL disability insurance for example the Isles on the Dipietro contract would have to buy supplementary insurance for the remaining eight years which can be prohibitive or self-insure.

Also it does not cover all the players on the roster. This was written during Eric Staal's contract negotiations and focuses on contract length and insurance issues:

Quote:
The league purchases its disability insurance through the BWD Group, a Long Island, N.Y., insurance broker that also obtains coverage for the NBA, WNBA and Major League Baseball. (One underwriter, the Chubb Corporation, touted its relationship with the NHL in its 2001 annual report.)

Each team pays a premium based on the salaries of its five highest-paid players, but is free to allocate that coverage how it wishes. Typically, a team will extend coverage to as many as seven players, Daly said. Coverage kicks in when a player misses at least 30 games.

Beyond that, individual teams are free to pursue additional coverage, but the heavy premiums make it a losing proposition. To insure a player under the league program, it costs about 5 percent of his salary. To insure additional players, it would cost substantially more.

“Usually it works out that we have five players under the league program,” Rutherford said. “When you get to a certain dollar amount, the premiums keep skyrocketing. I wish it was easier to get each [player] insured, but we can’t do that. …

“If you wanted, you could insure all the contracts, but it would be very expensive.”
http://proathletesonly.com/news/feat...nhl-contracts/

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07-19-2011, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Yup.

The Bruins are responsible for paying the remainder of Savard's salary - they may have insurance to cover all or part of it.
so his cap will remain there on the summer going against the 10% overage allowance right? for all 7 years?

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07-19-2011, 03:02 PM
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so his cap will remain there on the summer going against the 10% overage allowance right? for all 7 years?
Yup, just like Rathje's did - assuming the cap / LTIR rules are the same under the next CBA.

Of course, since he is not retired, the Bruins could trade him to a team trying to reach the cap floor - assuming that the insurance permitted the transfer of payments.

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07-19-2011, 03:03 PM
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If he actually retires, he would forfeit the remainder of the money.

However, what would be more likely is that doctors would rule him unable to continue his career and he'd be put on LTIR each season (IIRC New Jersey did this with Mogilny and his back injury). He'd likely have to be periodically re-examined to confirm that he's still medically unable to play due to PCS, but once he got that decision once it'd be trivial to get it again.

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07-19-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Of course, since he is not retired, the Bruins could trade him to a team trying to reach the cap floor - assuming that the insurance permitted the transfer of payments.
Wouldn't that be sneaky. They could activate him and have him sit in the press box every night.

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07-19-2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Yup, just like Rathje's did - assuming the cap / LTIR rules are the same under the next CBA.

Of course, since he is not retired, the Bruins could trade him to a team trying to reach the cap floor - assuming that the insurance permitted the transfer of payments.
I'm certain that the NHL would step in if that happened. It would be viewed as a clear attempt to circumvent the salary cap (the floor by the team acquiring him and the ceiling by the Bruins)

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07-19-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
once he retires he goes onto insurance... insurance pays
i have no idea if savard will play again... no idea how well he will play if he does play... but i am sure if he retires with this contract in place from this concusion that he will be the only one to ever do it. dont expect it to happen or you will be disappointed i guess.
With the research being done and found on concussions. I don't see a doctor who would pass a guy who's had multiple concussions who still says he's not all right. I just don't see it happening. I would think this would be a growing trend not a dying one.

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07-19-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Yup, just like Rathje's did - assuming the cap / LTIR rules are the same under the next CBA.

Of course, since he is not retired, the Bruins could trade him to a team trying to reach the cap floor - assuming that the insurance permitted the transfer of payments.
If most teams have 5-7 players covered under the league's insurance policy, then why are we to assume that Savard's contract isn't one of them? His contract was for 7 years (the maximum allowed under the insurance clause), and it's one of the largest contracts they have, so wouldn't it have made sense for them to insure it? What am I missing here?

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07-19-2011, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Wouldn't that be sneaky. They could activate him and have him sit in the press box every night.
Of course, as soon as they activated him, the insurance would go away - and they would be on the hook for any remaining salary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
I'm certain that the NHL would step in if that happened. It would be viewed as a clear attempt to circumvent the salary cap (the floor by the team acquiring him and the ceiling by the Bruins)
The League did allow the Devils to trade Vlad "laying-on-the-beach-and-retired-in-all-but-the-official-papers" Malakhov to the Sharks.

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07-19-2011, 03:12 PM
  #22
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Can a contract be uninsurable due to past injuries? If so, what are the stipulations?

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07-19-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
The League did allow the Devils to trade Vlad "laying-on-the-beach-and-retired-in-all-but-the-official-papers" Malakhov to the Sharks.
There's a significant difference between that trade and the Bruins dumping Savard to the Panthers in 2 years.

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07-19-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
Can a contract be uninsurable due to past injuries? If so, what are the stipulations?
Anything is insurable if you pay the right premiums.

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07-19-2011, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Sanguine View Post
If most teams have 5-7 players covered under the league's insurance policy, then why are we to assume that Savard's contract isn't one of them? His contract was for 7 years (the maximum allowed under the insurance clause), and it's one of the largest contracts they have, so wouldn't it have made sense for them to insure it? What am I missing here?
Savards SPC is very likely insured - but the payments would be to the Bruins, not Savard.

The question then would be whether the insurance policy permitted a transfer of beneficiary.

If it did not, then a trade would be very unlikely - even if the League permitted it. The new team would be responsible for the remaining salary (the Bruins could not send along $$$) and once the Bruins were no longer responsible for the salary, the insurance payments would almost certainly stop.

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