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Old
07-19-2011, 11:41 AM
  #51
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
False.

He was given every oppurtunity. He had PP time, top 6 minutes and did not produce. The 08-09 season was a disaster for him and instead of working his but off in the 2009 training camp, he played like crap.

The team sent him down and instead of working hard in the AHL, he threatened to bolt to Russia if he did not stay up. He finally decided to stay in the AHL because he if he bolted he would have been ineligible to play in the 2010 Olympics (which he did not because of an injury).

To make matters worse, when he finally came back up with the team in 2010, his play was uninspired and lacked work.
His rookie year was a success. So, no need to discuss that one.
The following year, it was a tough one for him. Like for most of the team. Carbo lost control, and the whole team went downhill. Price was surrounded by controversies, but he was very well protected, and the team didn't back out on him. It was a complete zoo. Should we single out SK? Why? Carbo didn't communicate with his players. I strongly doubt he actually gave them training requisites for camp time. That would explain why so many of the players that were here under the Carbo era were said to be so out of shape by Martin.

Last year, he was injured at camp, so I don't know why you're saying he didn't work his ass off. He played two pre-season games. He played with bottom liners like Moen, White, Maxwell, Lappy, Stewart for most of his ice time. In his 2nd game, again, he was paired with these guys until Cammy got hurt and left the game as a precautionary measure. SK was put along side Plek and D'Ago and he scored a goal. That line was actually very effective.
After the game, he was sent down, while guys like MaxPac, D'Ago, Lats and Chipchura (all unimpressive, moreso than SK) remained with the club.

Martin lashed out at SK during a skate, and the media wasted no time zooming in on him as the dark horse. As camp went on, as well as the season, it became evident that SK was far from the only one that came into camp out of shape (and unlike others, he was actually injured). Now, you can question why he came into camp in bad shape, but then let's look at the previous years. Carbo as a coached never made his players work hard. He was terrible and we were never lead to believe the coach demanded a high level of fitness from his players. That became very clear once Martin came in and started saying things like he's never seen so many players out of shape, etc..

He was sent down, and before he even refused to show up in the AHL, plenty of people were questioning the move. There was no reason for it. Not when you had worse players kept for a top 6 role. In any event, he refused to present himself and that's when all the fans turned on him. They pretty much all gave the benefit of the doubt to the staff and Sergei was scratched off.
When Sergei came back, he spent a lot of time with Moore/Moen. He got some opportunities with higher caliber players like Plek/Gomez/Cammy when injuries occurred, but he never benefited from PP time. In 47 games, he got 12min of PP time which amounts to 15sec per game. He scored 18pts at ES playing about 12min per game, just so you know, that was better than Gomez, Plek, Cammy and on par with Gionta. He was one of our best producers at ES. So really, it's not so bad, but you can't expect fans to see through the hate after he ''insulted'' their team by not following orders.

Now I don't care about Sergei. The kid is gone. That being said, dismissing management from any fault is simply wrong. They completely mismanaged him.
Yea, he's a brat. St-Louis suspended Oshie this year for missing practice, you think they're gonna cast him out? Of course not.
Pavelec did the exact same thing SK did. He said management promised him a fair shot that year. He outplayed the other keepers, and then got sent down. He felt management played him and didn't leave up to their promises, so he refused to show up in the AHL.
SK held the exact same speech. You can either choose to believe his words, or say that he's lying. I don't see why he'd lie about anything.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Yeah, because you were there to witness everything...
I never said I was, but neither were you. But we were never given any reason as to why he was sent down in the first place. There's the alleged altercation between him and Gomez in preseason, but that was dismissed.
Gainey said they planned to send him down after the Sabres game which was before this supposed ''fight''. Reasons were never give as to why they really sent him down though (unless I missed something).
He missed one bus, and then Martin was shown screaming at him during practice. Personally, I think management didn't want to risk going into a season with any type of distraction and so decided to send him down. It clearly wasn't the right decision.
When you have a problem, you try to fix it, not hide it somewhere. If you just toss it aside, then it'll just come back eventually.
We could have used SK's production and skill last year. Instead we struggled without a top 6 for most of the year.

I don't care if you think he's a whiny little punk bizatch. He's a good hockey player that we lost for nothing, that's what matters.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
It's always the teacher's fault, never the student... no wonder the educational system has gone down the drain, it's the prevailing mentality everywhere.
Teacher is not always wrong. But didn't MaxPac say if he's to be called up to play on the bottom line and get scratched after every mistake, he'd rather play quality time in the AHL instead??

Teacher isn't always right, nor is the Student always right.

Coaches in hockey will get fired often because it's simpler to change them as opposed to players.
We saw what SK could do with us during his rookie year. He had a tougher time the following year, but still, you knew he had the talent.
His last year with us, he was sent down right from camp and it all went to the crapper. Still, his ES production was among the best of our team.
Last year he only had 7 points less than Plekanec (our leading scorer) despite playing about 500min less.

Again, yes you can call him anything you want, but he was a valuable asset no matter what. We lost him for nothing. I would have agreed with you that perhaps it was really just all his fault if he had problems in Nashville. That wasn't the case as you know. We will see how he does again this year.

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07-19-2011, 11:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
His rookie year was a success. So, no need to discuss that one.
The following year, it was a tough one for him. Like for most of the team. Carbo lost control, and the whole team went downhill. Price was surrounded by controversies, but he was very well protected, and the team didn't back out on him. It was a complete zoo. Should we single out SK? Why? Carbo didn't communicate with his players. I strongly doubt he actually gave them training requisites for camp time. That would explain why so many of the players that were here under the Carbo era were said to be so out of shape by Martin.

Last year, he was injured at camp, so I don't know why you're saying he didn't work his ass off. He played two pre-season games. He played with bottom liners like Moen, White, Maxwell, Lappy, Stewart for most of his ice time. In his 2nd game, again, he was paired with these guys until Cammy got hurt and left the game as a precautionary measure. SK was put along side Plek and D'Ago and he scored a goal. That line was actually very effective.
After the game, he was sent down, while guys like MaxPac, D'Ago, Lats and Chipchura (all unimpressive, moreso than SK) remained with the club.

Martin lashed out at SK during a skate, and the media wasted no time zooming in on him as the dark horse. As camp went on, as well as the season, it became evident that SK was far from the only one that came into camp out of shape (and unlike others, he was actually injured). Now, you can question why he came into camp in bad shape, but then let's look at the previous years. Carbo as a coached never made his players work hard. He was terrible and we were never lead to believe the coach demanded a high level of fitness from his players. That became very clear once Martin came in and started saying things like he's never seen so many players out of shape, etc..

He was sent down, and before he even refused to show up in the AHL, plenty of people were questioning the move. There was no reason for it. Not when you had worse players kept for a top 6 role. In any event, he refused to present himself and that's when all the fans turned on him. They pretty much all gave the benefit of the doubt to the staff and Sergei was scratched off.
When Sergei came back, he spent a lot of time with Moore/Moen. He got some opportunities with higher caliber players like Plek/Gomez/Cammy when injuries occurred, but he never benefited from PP time. In 47 games, he got 12min of PP time which amounts to 15sec per game. He scored 18pts at ES playing about 12min per game, just so you know, that was better than Gomez, Plek, Cammy and on par with Gionta. He was one of our best producers at ES. So really, it's not so bad, but you can't expect fans to see through the hate after he ''insulted'' their team by not following orders.

Now I don't care about Sergei. The kid is gone. That being said, dismissing management from any fault is simply wrong. They completely mismanaged him.
Yea, he's a brat. St-Louis suspended Oshie this year for missing practice, you think they're gonna cast him out? Of course not.
Pavelec did the exact same thing SK did. He said management promised him a fair shot that year. He outplayed the other keepers, and then got sent down. He felt management played him and didn't leave up to their promises, so he refused to show up in the AHL.
SK held the exact same speech. You can either choose to believe his words, or say that he's lying. I don't see why he'd lie about anything.



I never said I was, but neither were you. But we were never given any reason as to why he was sent down in the first place. There's the alleged altercation between him and Gomez in preseason, but that was dismissed.
Gainey said they planned to send him down after the Sabres game which was before this supposed ''fight''. Reasons were never give as to why they really sent him down though (unless I missed something).
He missed one bus, and then Martin was shown screaming at him during practice. Personally, I think management didn't want to risk going into a season with any type of distraction and so decided to send him down. It clearly wasn't the right decision.
When you have a problem, you try to fix it, not hide it somewhere. If you just toss it aside, then it'll just come back eventually.
We could have used SK's production and skill last year. Instead we struggled without a top 6 for most of the year.

I don't care if you think he's a whiny little punk bizatch. He's a good hockey player that we lost for nothing, that's what matters.



Teacher is not always wrong. But didn't MaxPac say if he's to be called up to play on the bottom line and get scratched after every mistake, he'd rather play quality time in the AHL instead??

Teacher isn't always right, nor is the Student always right.

Coaches in hockey will get fired often because it's simpler to change them as opposed to players.
We saw what SK could do with us during his rookie year. He had a tougher time the following year, but still, you knew he had the talent.
His last year with us, he was sent down right from camp and it all went to the crapper. Still, his ES production was among the best of our team.
Last year he only had 7 points less than Plekanec (our leading scorer) despite playing about 500min less.

Again, yes you can call him anything you want, but he was a valuable asset no matter what. We lost him for nothing. I would have agreed with you that perhaps it was really just all his fault if he had problems in Nashville. That wasn't the case as you know. We will see how he does again this year.
SUPERB!

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07-19-2011, 11:52 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
I was talking about his last year.

And we lost a 6-5 game because of one player on one play? Really? I can see the coach being down on him for that game and having a talk afterwards, but I guess benching him and making sure you never see him again on your bench is a very reasonable response.

How many players on our team outscored him this year again? One? Nah, couldn't be useful at all.

But hey, we didn't sign Pouliot. Now that's a travesty and terrible asset management.
I didn't say we lost the game because of him. But when you put yourself ahead of the team, in the playoffs no less, you don't deserve anything. That is how it has ALWAYS been, and its too bad for him if he couldn't understand that simple concept.

That was just one blaring example as well, he didn't do **** all the rest of the time either.

I don't really care about who he outscored on the team. It is quite obvious that the management and coaching value the cohesion of the team above what the individuals produce. And I agree with that mentality. Sergei didn't fit into that, so he was moved.

And you have a really skewed interpretation of travesty when you use it to describe not re-signing Pouliot.

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07-19-2011, 11:59 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I didn't say we lost the game because of him. But when you put yourself ahead of the team, in the playoffs no less, you don't deserve anything. That is how it has ALWAYS been, and its too bad for him if he couldn't understand that simple concept.
How did he put himself in front of the team? I just checked the replay of that game. He played the play perfectly. No one cleared the crease and Halak let in a screen shot. I don't think he got any more playing time in that game and got marginal playing time the other games.

As I said, I'm not big on headcases, but when it was game time, he turned it on. I'll take that over all-talk, no-play Gomez.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
That was just one blaring example as well, he didn't do **** all the rest of the time either.

I don't really care about who he outscored on the team. It is quite obvious that the management and coaching value the cohesion of the team above what the individuals produce. And I agree with that mentality. Sergei didn't fit into that, so he was moved.

And you have a really skewed interpretation of travesty when you use it to describe not re-signing Pouliot.
????

Cohesion of the team is important, I agree. But we ditched someone who could be second on our team in scoring, tops in +/- for nothing. Nothing. At some point, if the guy is hustling on the ice, you got to meet him there, not make sure he won't give a **** about you.

I don't know exactly how it all went down inside, so I can't comment on that, but it's not like being outspoken is the be-all, end-all of attitude. He gave what he could when it meant something, that's a whole lot better than some of the pathetic excuses in terms of effort we have on the team.

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07-19-2011, 11:59 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
Go back to 08-09. He did not produce and he played mostly top 6. He played point on the PP as well.

Also, as you can see all the players you stated that ''played like crap'', have all been traded since.
In 56 games, he was averaging of 14min of icetime. That's not top 6 + PP icetime.

He played 30 games with less than 14 min TOI. 6 games with 17min+.

But I guess it was a "break out or bust" year for Sergei. He's clearly a bust after that.

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07-19-2011, 12:10 PM
  #56
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How did he put himself in front of the team? I just checked the replay of that game. He played the play perfectly. No one cleared the crease and Halak let in a screen shot. I don't think he got any more playing time in that game and got marginal playing time the other games.
If you can, watch what happened in the neutral zone. That is where he made his selfish play. Its a shame really because you won't see the whole string of events. Andrei scores the hat-trick, him and Sergei are laughing on the bench. Then Sergei gets out and tries to pull 3 or 4 dangles himself in the neutral zone instead of getting the puck deep. The puck is turned over, shot around the boards, it ends up at the point and they score. This all happened right at the end of the period, a crucial time, in which Montreal probably would have kept the lead if it didn't happen.

Quote:
As I said, I'm not big on headcases, but when it was game time, he turned it on. I'll take that over all-talk, no-play Gomez.
I do not see any evidence to support that he "turns it on" more than Gomez in the playoffs.

Quote:
Cohesion of the team is important, I agree. But we ditched someone who could be second on our team in scoring, tops in +/- for nothing. Nothing. At some point, if the guy is hustling on the ice, you got to meet him there, not make sure he won't give a **** about you.
"Could," the simple fact, is you are taking his point totals from another team, in a different situation. You are also taking a smaller sample size than what he played on the Habs. Weak argument IMO.

He was had for nothing because he had little to no value at the time because of his perceived problems between his ears.

Quote:
I don't know exactly how it all went down inside, so I can't comment on that, but it's not like being outspoken is the be-all, end-all of attitude. He gave what he could when it meant something, that's a whole lot better than some of the pathetic excuses in terms of effort we have on the team.
I do not agree with this statement, and I don't see how you could make such a definitive statement like that either.

I am also curious to see how he does next year. It would not be remotely the first time a player does well for the immediate future after changing teams. When you look at his shooting percentage, it is way too high, especially for someone who does not possess a good shot.

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07-19-2011, 12:12 PM
  #57
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Sergei is cancer of all cancers, cancer of the locker room, bla bla bla yadda yadda

The reasons why the Habs didn't win the cup last year is because it takes at least 1 full season for the room too cleanse itself from poison that was sergei

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07-19-2011, 12:41 PM
  #58
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The only thing that bothers me is getting basically nothing in return for a guy that a team ended up finding interesting enough to sign for 2...M. Same goes for Pouliot, others.

If the player doesn't fit in the Mtl mold ship him elsewhere quietly while he might still fetch something. Don't publicly burn his value on the trade market then wake up to realize it might be time to send him packing.

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07-19-2011, 01:06 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
Go back to 08-09. He did not produce and he played mostly top 6. He played point on the PP as well.
He played only 56 games and was 19th on the team in ice time (11th among forwards), 18th in time on ice per game (10th among forwards). He was 10th in PP ice time and 11th in PP ice time per game. That is hardly what anyone would call top 6 minutes.

If you are going to make stuff up... at least try to make some credible statements.

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07-19-2011, 01:13 PM
  #60
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Montreal is bad at Handling talented players that are headcases. Sure he is talented but it wasn't a fit. Big Whoop.

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07-19-2011, 01:33 PM
  #61
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He played only 56 games and was 19th on the team in ice time (11th among forwards), 18th in time on ice per game (10th among forwards). He was 10th in PP ice time and 11th in PP ice time per game. That is hardly what anyone would call top 6 minutes.

If you are going to make stuff up... at least try to make some credible statements.
We have youngsters of more or less the same age SK was in this case now, Eller is an example - Weber on D is another, and we dont see them pouting or throwing fits...

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07-19-2011, 01:47 PM
  #62
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Montreal is bad at Handling talented players that are headcases. Sure he is talented but it wasn't a fit. Big Whoop.
this

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07-19-2011, 01:51 PM
  #63
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I wonder why DET never has these issues with young talented players. They all seem to pan out.

Do you guys think they just draft angels all the time and let them sink or swim and they always ****ing swim?

It's called player development. Something we don't have. FFS, if Patches didn't ask to stay in Hamilton he might not even be the player he is today.

Ya, let's draft a talented Belarussian, bring him up at 19 years old and then get pissed that he acted immaturely after we left him to fend for himself in Montreal of all places, not ****ing Columbus or Nashville.

Him and his bro are out partying with the mafia while Sidney Crosby is still sleeping in Mario's basement at 25 years old.

Chris Higgins looks like a 40 goal scorer then becomes (mod edit: garbage). If any of our young players has any hiccups or imperfections or character issues they are DONE. They get no support. We're lucky guys like Price and Subban are destined for greatness because it sure as hell wouldn't come from the organization.


Last edited by hototogisu: 07-19-2011 at 02:00 PM. Reason: careful.
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07-19-2011, 01:53 PM
  #64
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IMO the NHL would benefit from more trash talking, it's better than all the PC: "I love the fans and my fellow players, Montreal is a great city because of the tradition and the opportunity to play with Gomez" etc.

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07-19-2011, 01:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
We have youngsters of more or less the same age SK was in this case now, Eller is an example - Weber on D is another, and we dont see them pouting or throwing fits...
And others like Lappy and O'Byrne that were kept here but still asked management about their utilization. Not too long after that, they were traded away.
Eller just went through his rookie year, did SK throw a fit in his rookie year?
Did he even do it as a sophomore??

In any event, not every person is the same. SK has his persona, you deal with him differently. If you don't want to deal with him, you trade him while he has value, not wait until you don't have a choice and he's worthless.

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07-19-2011, 01:56 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
We have youngsters of more or less the same age SK was in this case now, Eller is an example - Weber on D is another, and we dont see them pouting or throwing fits...
I guess our only option was to trade him.

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07-19-2011, 02:07 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
I wonder why DET never has these issues with young talented players. They all seem to pan out.

Do you guys think they just draft angels all the time and let them sink or swim and they always ****ing swim?

It's called player development. Something we don't have. FFS, if Patches didn't ask to stay in Hamilton he might not even be the player he is today.

Ya, let's draft a talented Belarussian, bring him up at 19 years old and then get pissed that he acted immaturely after we left him to fend for himself in Montreal of all places, not ****ing Columbus or Nashville.

Him and his bro are out partying with the mafia while Sidney Crosby is still sleeping in Mario's basement at 25 years old.

Chris Higgins looks like a 40 goal scorer then becomes (mod edit: garbage). If any of our young players has any hiccups or imperfections or character issues they are DONE. They get no support. We're lucky guys like Price and Subban are destined for greatness because it sure as hell wouldn't come from the organization.
I agree with you partially as far as mentoring players and giving them a better support system, this has been handled poorly imo. But at the same time these guys are not babies and should take a little more responsibility for their own actions.

Detroit keeps their players in the minors until they are are "over ripe" as Holland puts it. Sergei would never make it in their system as he wouldn't make the team until he is like 24 and would have bolted to the KHL. Lou and the Devils are the same way, either you conform to the team concept or you are done.

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07-19-2011, 02:09 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
I wonder why DET never has these issues with young talented players. They all seem to pan out.

Do you guys think they just draft angels all the time and let them sink or swim and they always ****ing swim?

It's called player development. Something we don't have. FFS, if Patches didn't ask to stay in Hamilton he might not even be the player he is today.

Ya, let's draft a talented Belarussian, bring him up at 19 years old and then get pissed that he acted immaturely after we left him to fend for himself in Montreal of all places, not ****ing Columbus or Nashville.

Him and his bro are out partying with the mafia while Sidney Crosby is still sleeping in Mario's basement at 25 years old.

Chris Higgins looks like a 40 goal scorer then becomes (mod edit: garbage). If any of our young players has any hiccups or imperfections or character issues they are DONE. They get no support. We're lucky guys like Price and Subban are destined for greatness because it sure as hell wouldn't come from the organization.
Robin left the batcave a couple years ago.



It's always good to compare the impact of a snooze town like Motor city to a city known for it's party ways, as one and the same.

But hey, you're an expert, right...

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07-19-2011, 02:13 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
News Article: Neofury on Sergei Kostitsyn

He's an immature brat.

/thread
this.

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07-19-2011, 02:25 PM
  #70
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The problem with players like Sergei in Montreal is that they fall for the hype surrounding them when they have any type of success. But, his work ethic was poor. How many times did we see him do a change when he should be getting back to check or not skating hard to get back to the defensive zone?

Lots.

The kid has skills, but he has a bad attitude and a me first mentality. People here think every player that is offensively talented should never be traded and all deserve top 6 minutes no matter their play without the puck, or their attitude towards teammates and management.

Sergei walked from the team, the team didn't walk from him. He then sucked it up and went and played some hockey in Hamilton, and with that Montreal were the bigger of the two and called him up and gave him a second chance, if not a third chance cause there is well documented stories online with the media with Martin and coaches trying to work with him.

And all this talk of Montreal trying to protect Price more and putting more into Price is partial BS. If I am Montreal and know one player is a franchise type player I do put more into him. Price may have been immature partying and so on, but he wasn't hanging around with criminals like Sergei. Also, Price while riding the pines practiced his ass off and worked harder to get back to where he is today, Sergei skipped optional practices unlike Price because he felt owed and entitled. Price even called him out on it, showing leadership and dedication over Sergei's immaturity and bitterness.

Enough the Sergei back patting, too many are in denial over skill than that of the real issue. Team unity and fit, if he was an issue (which he was) then he has to be dealt with. Management gave him chances, he burned them.

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07-19-2011, 02:30 PM
  #71
KingKovy
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
How did he put himself in front of the team? I just checked the replay of that game. He played the play perfectly. No one cleared the crease and Halak let in a screen shot. I don't think he got any more playing time in that game and got marginal playing time the other games.

As I said, I'm not big on headcases, but when it was game time, he turned it on. I'll take that over all-talk, no-play Gomez.



????

Cohesion of the team is important, I agree. But we ditched someone who could be second on our team in scoring, tops in +/- for nothing. Nothing. At some point, if the guy is hustling on the ice, you got to meet him there, not make sure he won't give a **** about you.

I don't know exactly how it all went down inside, so I can't comment on that, but it's not like being outspoken is the be-all, end-all of attitude. He gave what he could when it meant something, that's a whole lot better than some of the pathetic excuses in terms of effort we have on the team.
Well said.. Or at least give him a chance to produce so you get something in return..

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07-19-2011, 02:31 PM
  #72
ECWHSWI
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And others like Lappy and O'Byrne that were kept here but still asked management about their utilization. Not too long after that, they were traded away.
Eller just went through his rookie year, did SK throw a fit in his rookie year?
Did he even do it as a sophomore??

In any event, not every person is the same. SK has his persona, you deal with him differently. If you don't want to deal with him, you trade him while he has value, not wait until you don't have a choice and he's worthless.
the kid had a rep of being a headcase... what value did he have... seriously...

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07-19-2011, 02:33 PM
  #73
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Yellow is a good color for him.

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07-19-2011, 02:38 PM
  #74
Ice Poutine
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Its not true that Sergei never had PP time when he was over here...
I mean i remember him as being Pretty P*ssed off most of the time.


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Old
07-19-2011, 02:58 PM
  #75
JGRB
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Habs must be poorly developing Subban too..

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