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MLD 2011 Draft Thread I

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Old
07-19-2011, 05:10 PM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
I think both seventies and mark need to start getting some proof if I'm going to buy either of their claims.
Hey I agree it's going to be very tough to sell and player as the best defensive player in this thing. That being said there aren't that many known defensive players with a quote or any quotes refering to them as one of the best checkers in the NHL, an actual quote from a superstar praising their defensive play and a NHL All-Star game appearance in a season with only 14 goals scored. Clearly he was doing something right.

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07-19-2011, 05:15 PM
  #602
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Mark, I've never seen you get so bent out of shape over something said so long ago!

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So because Erixon played during the 80's he has the "numbers" to back this up and therefore was the better defensive player? What a joke.
Well yeah, unfortunately, that's the way it has to be sometimes. The way I see it, we have 5-6 ways to back up defensive ability:

- seeing them ourselves (depends on our age and how throughly we've watched them, for most of us, this covers players from 1990-on)
- selke records which demonstrate how the player was perceived in his time (1977-present)
- quotes from players, executives, newspapers (can be from anytime in history)
- "scouting report" guides like Zander Hollander's/Hockey Scouting Report/McKeen's/Forecaster (1972-present)
- numerical analysis using GF/GA/PK figures (1967-present but some limited stuff can be done from before that as well, such as checking team PK stats, team defensive results, player PK scoring indicating defensive usage, results of scoring line players who faced said defensive player, etc)
- coach and players polls from the newspaper ranking the best in the league in certain categories (1971-1994, to my knowledge)

each piece of evidence helps. As you can see from the timelines involved, a player from the 1977-1994 period has the potential to benefit the most from all these methods. Erixon played in that period of time. Fair or not, His defensive ability, provided it is what I said it was, will be easier to prove than it will be for a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
In 1976-77 Libett had 14 goals and was chosen to play in an All-Star game. Surely it wasnt because of his offense. But I guess that is completely irrelevant as well.. Not to mention serving as a captain twice.
I don't see how serving as a captain makes him better defensively... but sure, it shows he was seen as a leader.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
It's just hilarious that seventies throws out statements like " Well I guess I have to take the best defensive player remaining..." and list of Erixons mediocre Selke voting record (Which completely excludes all players pre selke voting) and nobody says boo.

No quotes no statistics other then the mediocre selke voting and yet im expected to now prove Libett is better then Erixon, why?
The onus is every bit as much on me. I'll even include Libett in my work, when i get the time, since he's in all the scouting report guides I've collected. I wouldn't want you to be in a disadvantageous position just because I have more books...

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Haha, you should of been around for the past couple ATD's I certainly say boo as well as many other things. .


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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here are some fun numbers. Raw point totals for Steve Sullivan vs. Scott Gomez. Since they played at basically the same time and scoring has remained fairly constant, except for the big spike in 2005-06, raw point totals aren't a bad way to compare them.

Scott Gomez seasons over 50 points: 84, 70, 70, 70, 63, 60, 59, 58, 55.
Steve Sullivan seasons over 50 points: 75, 73, 68, 65, 61, 60, 60, 51


Scott Gomez overall = 675 points in 864 games.
Steve Sullivan overall = 682 points in 890 games.

Gomez is barely ahead of Sullivan in regular season offense. He obviously has a much better playoff resume, however, though that is partly due to their different team situations.

Edit: The reason I picked Gomez to compared is that, as a Devils fan, I always thought of him as a 60-70 point scorer with the one outlier year. And when I looked at Sullivan's scoring totals, he is exactly that, but without the one 80+ season.

Double Edit: I guess you could say that the Devils' style held Scott Gomez back offensively, and that is definitely true to an extent, at least when Pat Burns was the coach. (Pat Burns hated Scott).
This shows that Gomez gets a lot of credit just for being top-10 in assists. Sullivan's offense was much more balanced. In his 75 and 73-point seasons, if he had 18 fewer goals and 18 more assists, he'd be in the top-10 in assists too!

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
seventies should have said Erixon "has the best Selke record in the MLD," or is "arguably the best defensive forward in the MLD." I kind of laughed to myself at the certainty of his statement when he drafted Erixon too.

But I think it's pretty ridiculous to call Erixon's Selke record "mediocre."
true and true.

look at me, still generating controversy after all these years

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Agreed. His record is a heck of a lot better than the vast majority of available players.

Mediocre in the all-time sense? Maybe. Mediocre in the MLD sense? Not hardly.
exactly.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Agreed, Erixson does have a good Selke record for the MLD, but in terms of it automatically placing him as the best player in the MLD it's not overwhelming by any means.
You sound like you channelled overpass or hockey outsider or TDMM for just long enough to type out a sentence!

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Old
07-19-2011, 05:24 PM
  #603
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I think both seventies and mark need to start getting some proof if I'm going to buy either of their claims.
It won't matter. I have the best defensive forward in the draft in Jason Allison.

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07-19-2011, 05:30 PM
  #604
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I'm heading out so I dont have that much time to reply.

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Mark, I've never seen you get so bent out of shape over something said so long ago!
Not really that bent out of shape in terms of the original quote, the response from Boywonder, Vecens, BC,IF etc... stating that I need to prove my claims and yet let that original claim by yourself slide right through with no rebuttal whatsoever was the issue.

It seems as though sometimes certain GM's get a bit of a pass with things being said around here.

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07-19-2011, 05:33 PM
  #605
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It won't matter. I have the best defensive forward in the draft in Jason Allison.
Heh. Allison really wasn't that bad in his own zone before the major injury.

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07-19-2011, 05:38 PM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm heading out so I dont have that much time to reply.



Not really that bent out of shape in terms of the original quote, the response from Boywonder, Vecens, BC,IF etc... stating that I need to prove my claims and yet let that original claim by yourself slide right through with no rebuttal whatsoever was the issue.

It seems as though sometimes certain GM's get a bit of a pass with things being said around here.
I actually did comment on seventies pick saying it was a good pick (and because I do legitimately think that Erixon is the best defensive forward). I commented on yours because you had faulty logic saying that one thing means another (in this case, saying that Rod Gilbert's quote means he was successful against him, which isn't necessarily the case, just that it was difficult to play against Libett). I do think Libett was a really good pick. I think overall Libett is better than Erixon. But purely based on defense, I think Erixon is better.

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07-19-2011, 05:40 PM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm going to challenge 70's claims as Erixon being without a doubt the best defensive player in this thing. If Libett can have that effect on a guy like Rob Gilbert then any forward in the MLD doesn't stand a chance.
I'd take Erixon 100 times out of 100 over Libett.

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07-19-2011, 05:40 PM
  #608
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My team needs a little more "Holywood"......

Once Kirk McLean was gone, I though this guy was the best remaining goalie: Kelly Hrudey.

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07-19-2011, 05:43 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I'd take Erixon 100 times out of 100 over Libett.
Defensively, I would agree. I think Libett might be a better all-around player though.

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07-19-2011, 05:44 PM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
It's just hilarious that seventies throws out statements like " Well I guess I have to take the best defensive player remaining..." and list of Erixons mediocre Selke voting record (Which completely excludes all players pre selke voting) and nobody says boo.

No quotes no statistics other then the mediocre selke voting and yet im expected to now prove Libett is better then Erixon, why?
If Erixon's Selke record is mediocre, show me an available player or a player who's been selected in the MLD with a Selke record that is even close to his.

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07-19-2011, 05:44 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I'd take Erixon 100 times out of 100 over Libett.
because...

Edit: If it's based solely on the Selke record, how is that fair to checkers who played before the award was introduced?

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07-19-2011, 05:46 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
because...
That should say I'd take Erixon over Libbett 100/100 times defensively.

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07-19-2011, 05:52 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
because...

Edit: If it's based solely on the Selke record, how is that fair to checkers who played before the award was introduced?
Proven record is better than unproved record, isn't it?

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07-19-2011, 05:57 PM
  #614
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Awesome Express is going to pick one of our favourite players - this guy was the captain of the Skipjacks last year. He's smart, he's tough, he's fearless, he's strong defensively, he's a great penalty killer, and he wasn't half bad offensively either.

Orest Kindrachuk, C

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07-19-2011, 06:06 PM
  #615
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I wanted Kindrachuk as the anchor to my 3rd line in the next couple rounds, good pick. The Philadelphia Quakers will complete their top 6 by selecting offensive dynamo, LW Alexander Bodunov



2x World Championships Gold Medalist
4x Soviet League Champion
1974 Best Line Award Winner in Soviet League

Study of 2nd tier Soviet scorers

PlayerDraft PositionInternational GPGDomestic GPG
Alexander Bodunov1,122.407.545
Alexander Yakushev207.656.600
Vladimir Vikulov477.559.538
Vladimir Shadrin352.420.479
Yuri Lebedev786.179.383
Vyacheslav Anisin1,074.353.346
Viktor Zhluktov795.405.434
Sergei Kapustin877.577.536

As you can see, Bodunov has a better domestic GPG average than all of these guys, except Yakushev despite being picked much, much later than most. His international GPG isn't as impressive, but considering where he was picked in comparison to these guys being not so far off is still quite good. Offensively, he is on the same level as a lot of these guys that were picked way before him.

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Alexander Bodunov was one of the top scorers of the Soviet hockey in the 1970's. As an essential part of the promising Lebedev-Anisin-Bodunov line, he began his career playing for the Red Army club and, then, led the undistinguished Krylya Sovetov Moscow to the gold medals of the Soviet championship in 1974. His line was instrumental in various international tournaments played by Team USSR in that decade. Bodunov had an extremely powerful slapshot. He was famous for his goals scored after an instant rapid shot made without any visible preparations.
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...oster/ru24.htm

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Alexander Bodunov left quite an impression on fans in Winnipeg during the 1972 Summit Series.

Bodunov was one of the members of the Soviet's "Kid Line," also dubbed the "Headache Line" by Canadian broadcaster Brian Conacher. Bodunov was the left winger who was introduced along with fellow linemates Viacheslav Anisin and Yuri Lebedev in game three of the series.

This trio re-energized the Soviets when the debuted in Winnipeg. The Soviets handily won game one, and even though they claim they felt like they played better in game 2, lost convincingly to a recharged Team Canada.

Game three was in many ways a very pivotal match. It ended in a tie but was a moral loss for Canada.

The key for the Soviets early success was the element of surprise they could utilize, as Canada knew almost nothing about their opponent. After two games Canada had learned much about them.

Then the kid line entered the scene.

Canada didn't pay much attention to these three unknowns prior to the game. Why would they? These three youngsters surely couldn't be better than any three players they replaced - if they were they would have been playing since game one. And the Soviets had publicly said that these three were being inserted so that they could "learn" and make themselves better players for the future.

But the Kid Line, as dubbed by the Canadian media, played a pivotal role in the game. Canada held a 4-2 lead half way through the second period when these kids took over. First at 14:59, Lebedev brought the Soviets back to within one goal. Then, with about 1 and 1/2 minutes left in the second stanza, Alexander Bodunov snapped home a shot from the crease to beat Tony Esposito and knot the game at 4.

Bodunov's goal proved to be the final goal of the game, as goalies Esposito and, in particular, Vladislav Tretiak shut the door.

After making quite a name for themselves in game 3 in Winnipeg, the Kid Line was not often heard from again, at least not as far as Canadians knew. The big names like Kharlamov, Petrov, Mikhailov and Tretiak would continue to be great players, but the three heroes of game 3 did not join them as Soviet stars.

The trio did leave CSKA Moscow to join Boris Kulagin to join Krylja Sovetov. The trio led the Moscow based team to an upset victory over CSKA in 1974 to claim the USSR league championship.

But they were not always used on the national team, or would be used separately, as the 1970s progressed.

On one night he could be the best player on the ice, but the next he would be nowhere to be found. He had a great arsenal of hockey talent, featuring his heavy shot and creative play making.
http://internationalhockeylegends.bl...r-bodunov.html

Quote:
Meanwhile, to everyone's surprise, Vsevolod Bobrov and Boris Kulagin made 5 changes to the Soviet team, inserting youth and more speed. The line of Alexander Bodunov and Yuri Lebedev, centered by Vyacheslav Anisin, I later dubbed the "Headache" Line, as that was what they became for Canada.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xKq...odunov&f=false

Quote:
Bodunov and Lebedev produced the last two Russian goals for the tie and Anisin, for fast, fast relief, helped set up both. At the end of the game, the young trio was skating strongly while Canada's veterans were tiring again.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+bodunov&hl=en


Last edited by BillyShoe1721: 07-21-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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Old
07-19-2011, 06:07 PM
  #616
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Kindrachuk was my next pick since I picked 2 days ago , damnit

I had big plans for my 3rd line , oh well

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07-19-2011, 06:08 PM
  #617
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I ****ing hate you
Ditto that. I've been eying him since my first set of picks. I almost took him in that group of 4 I started with. The only thing that stopped me from taking him is the fact that there are a lot of secondary options behind him.

Excellent pick.

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07-19-2011, 06:09 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Awesome Express is going to pick one of our favourite players - this guy was the captain of the Skipjacks last year. He's smart, he's tough, he's fearless, he's strong defensively, he's a great penalty killer, and he wasn't half bad offensively either.

Orest Kindrachuk, C
We were definitely looking at him. His resume sounds really impressive.

One thing holding him back for me is that when you drafted him last time, it was the first time he went in the MLD, I think. And considering these drafts actually started with multiple GMs who watched hockey back through the 70s (including JohnFlyersFan), I thought that there just had to be some reason Kindrachuk always slipped past this point. I'm just not sure what that would be.

I donno. Maybe he was unfairly forgotten about and deserves this place.

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07-19-2011, 06:11 PM
  #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Awesome Express is going to pick one of our favourite players - this guy was the captain of the Skipjacks last year. He's smart, he's tough, he's fearless, he's strong defensively, he's a great penalty killer, and he wasn't half bad offensively either.

Orest Kindrachuk, C
Quite good offensively, actually. I was looking at some ES scoring stats for Erixon and Libett just now - Erixon scored 0.33 adjusted ESPPG, Libett 0.40. Kindrachuk blows them away with 0.53.

How tough was he though? I was really considering him but I saw him as more of a gutsy, gritty guy but tough might be taking it a little far.

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07-19-2011, 06:12 PM
  #620
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I'll echo the comments on Kindrachuk, solid pick, was going to hopefully get him for my 3rd line. And sorry if there was any confusion over my Reise pick. I didn't see that Selfish fan had listpicked for me. Oh well no worries. Hope everyone's having a good draft so far. Everyone's drafting really well thus far.

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07-19-2011, 06:14 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Quite good offensively, actually. I was looking at some ES scoring stats for Erixon and Libett just now - Erixon scored 0.33 adjusted ESPPG, Libett 0.40. Kindrachuk blows them away with 0.53.

How tough was he though? I was really considering him but I saw him as more of a gutsy, gritty guy but tough might be taking it a little far.
From what I read, he was Bobby Clarke kind of tough. Meaning, he started crap and let his teammates finish it. Usually played on the same line as Dave "The Hammer" Shultz and another goon. Though, that makes his scoring exploits more impressive.

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07-19-2011, 06:30 PM
  #622
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Completed my Bill Brydge bio: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...7&postcount=41

Also wanted to thank BillyShoes for letting me steal those NYtimes clippings

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07-19-2011, 06:55 PM
  #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
My team needs a little more "Holywood"......

Once Kirk McLean was gone, I though this guy was the best remaining goalie: Kelly Hrudey.
He's solid. Not exactly the most consistent guy, but every goalie has their weaknesses once you get down this far.

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07-19-2011, 07:09 PM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I ****ing hate you
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
I wanted Kindrachuk as the anchor to my 3rd line in the next couple rounds, good pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Ditto that. I've been eying him since my first set of picks. I almost took him in that group of 4 I started with. The only thing that stopped me from taking him is the fact that there are a lot of secondary options behind him.

Excellent pick.
Thanks guys. I'm probably higher on him than most (it was me who brought him into the MLD in the first place, it seems), but I think he's just a guy who's slipped through the cracks. He's going to be my project for the MLD - I want to prove that he's, at the very least, a solid 3rd liner at this level.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
We were definitely looking at him. His resume sounds really impressive.

One thing holding him back for me is that when you drafted him last time, it was the first time he went in the MLD, I think. And considering these drafts actually started with multiple GMs who watched hockey back through the 70s (including JohnFlyersFan), I thought that there just had to be some reason Kindrachuk always slipped past this point. I'm just not sure what that would be.

I donno. Maybe he was unfairly forgotten about and deserves this place.
Personally, I think it's just that he was unfairly forgotten. I hope to prove that soon.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Quite good offensively, actually. I was looking at some ES scoring stats for Erixon and Libett just now - Erixon scored 0.33 adjusted ESPPG, Libett 0.40. Kindrachuk blows them away with 0.53.

How tough was he though? I was really considering him but I saw him as more of a gutsy, gritty guy but tough might be taking it a little far.
Quite tough, actually. Surprisingly tough for a guy his size. I was actually looking through some old news clippings and found some good stuff. I'll dig them up and put 'em together tonight.

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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
I'll echo the comments on Kindrachuk, solid pick, was going to hopefully get him for my 3rd line. And sorry if there was any confusion over my Reise pick. I didn't see that Selfish fan had listpicked for me. Oh well no worries. Hope everyone's having a good draft so far. Everyone's drafting really well thus far.
great draft so far. I like the MLD because I can take risks and try and get guys (like Kindrachuk) more respect.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
From what I read, he was Bobby Clarke kind of tough. Meaning, he started crap and let his teammates finish it. Usually played on the same line as Dave "The Hammer" Shultz and another goon. Though, that makes his scoring exploits more impressive.
Not far off, but I think he could finish when needed.

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07-19-2011, 07:11 PM
  #625
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The Belleville Bulls select RW - Bud Poile

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