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Old
07-20-2011, 09:33 PM
  #26
Coppy
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I'd give him 4 mill per year at most. But I'd rather take that 4 million and put it toward Suter.

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07-20-2011, 09:35 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Let's change up this thread a bit...what WOULD you give Carle?
3.50m

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07-20-2011, 09:37 PM
  #28
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3.50m

He makes that now. His play and the UFA market dictate a raise. Which he has earned with his play

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07-20-2011, 09:48 PM
  #29
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i love how jester uses this solely for stats and not actual observation of the player


edit: dont get me wrong, i think carle is a great player who is actually worth his contract...but the guys on that list are better.

This post is embarrassing for you.

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07-20-2011, 09:50 PM
  #30
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This post is embarrassing for you.
You're embarrassing to you. Why do you have to be the Gestapo of HF?

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Old
07-20-2011, 09:51 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Let's change up this thread a bit...what WOULD you give Carle?
Around 6, maybe 7 if the Carle is good enough. Let's keep this discussion clean though.

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07-20-2011, 09:56 PM
  #32
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You're embarrassing to you. Why do you have to be the Gestapo of HF?
Cuz I read mein kampf?

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Old
07-20-2011, 10:05 PM
  #33
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He makes that now. His play and the UFA market dictate a raise. Which he has earned with his play
naw, he's not worth over that

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07-20-2011, 10:08 PM
  #34
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naw, he's not worth over that
Exactly.

If someone wants to drop 4.50m on Carle, let them.

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07-20-2011, 10:12 PM
  #35
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With the cap going up like it is, 4-4.5 for carle really isnt going to be a nagging contract, though id much prefer 4

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07-20-2011, 10:16 PM
  #36
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4.5 for Carle from where I'm from is the kind you generally don't want to go near.

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07-21-2011, 12:03 AM
  #37
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< 4

I'd take Schenn over two Carle's for the price of one.

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07-21-2011, 01:25 AM
  #38
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For 4/4.5 we need a nice tight Carle, not a loose Carle anyone can scores on.

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07-21-2011, 01:27 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
For 4/4.5 we need a nice tight Carle, not a loose Carle anyone can scores on.
how about a Hot Carle?

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07-21-2011, 03:09 AM
  #40
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Beat me too it lol.

But seriously, Carle is a defenseman. Offensive stats don't tell the story at all. The pain is that his defensive stats will look impressive, but you actually have to watch the player to understand why he fails.

Carle is the typical can't put it all together defenseman. Sometimes he will make three goal-saving defensive plays, then follow it up by a giveaway in OT infront of net. It's just the way he is. He's so inconsistent even period to period. Oh and for an offensive defenseman, didn't he have 1 goal this year.

I'm in now way a Carle hater, the guy has pretty elite passing at times. It's just the fact that he's meant to stop the puck going in the other end, and his skating isn't strong enough to justify his brain farts in the defensive game. I'll take Coburn at 4 over Carle at 3.5 every day of the week and twice on sunday.

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Old
07-21-2011, 04:24 AM
  #41
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I have a math background and there are lots of things stats do not explain.

Sticking with Carle, can someone statistically tell me an argument for why Carle's points in his first year were mostly on the power play (26 pp points vs 16 even strength) and last year Carle only had 2 PP points while leading the league in even strength points?

I just do not like the tone of those stats articles, as if they have "proved" something. They have not. Stats are useful, but for anyone familiar with risk management failures during the credit crisis, they are not a be all and end all.

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07-21-2011, 05:46 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
I have a math background and there are lots of things stats do not explain.

Sticking with Carle, can someone statistically tell me an argument for why Carle's points in his first year were mostly on the power play (26 pp points vs 16 even strength) and last year Carle only had 2 PP points while leading the league in even strength points?

I just do not like the tone of those stats articles, as if they have "proved" something. They have not. Stats are useful, but for anyone familiar with risk management failures during the credit crisis, they are not a be all and end all.
This is based on points per minute of ice time (on PP vs. EV) for Matt Carle.

PP PPM
2010-11 - 0.0106
2009-10 - 0.0695
2008-09 - 0.0453
2007-08 - 0.0412
2006-07 - 0.0734

EV PPM
2010-11 - 0.0251
2009-10 - 0.0139
2008-09 - 0.0131
2007-08 - 0.0088
2006-07 - 0.0157

The bolded numbers are EXTREMELY telling. This year, Matt Carle scored more per minute at even strength than he did per minute on the powerplay. That is absolutely unheard of, and does show a huge problem. The powerplay needs to be effective, and Carle needs to have much better PP numbers than that.

As a control, take a look at Meszaros' numbers:

PP PPM
2010-11 - 0.0304
2009-10 - 0.0418
2008-09 - 0.0376
2007-08 - 0.0712
2006-07 - 0.0329

EV PPM
2010-11 - 0.0193
2009-10 - 0.0077
2008-09 - 0.0119
2007-08 - 0.0144
2006-07 - 0.0190


Last edited by CS: 07-21-2011 at 05:59 AM.
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Old
07-21-2011, 06:56 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Beat me too it lol.

But seriously, Carle is a defenseman. Offensive stats don't tell the story at all. The pain is that his defensive stats will look impressive, but you actually have to watch the player to understand why he fails.

Carle is the typical can't put it all together defenseman. Sometimes he will make three goal-saving defensive plays, then follow it up by a giveaway in OT infront of net. It's just the way he is. He's so inconsistent even period to period. Oh and for an offensive defenseman, didn't he have 1 goal this year.

I'm in now way a Carle hater, the guy has pretty elite passing at times. It's just the fact that he's meant to stop the puck going in the other end, and his skating isn't strong enough to justify his brain farts in the defensive game. I'll take Coburn at 4 over Carle at 3.5 every day of the week and twice on sunday.
The problem is that your description of Carle's game simply isn't accurate. Carle is a solid defender. And if you actually watch the player, as yo suggest, and know what your looking at, you would know that. There's a lot of made up nonsense involving Carle and the player he is. And your post is just another example. And it can't be backed up with any solid facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The bolded numbers are EXTREMELY telling. This year, Matt Carle scored more per minute at even strength than he did per minute on the powerplay. That is absolutely unheard of, and does show a huge problem. The powerplay needs to be effective, and Carle needs to have much better PP numbers than that.
There is no doubt that Carle has to produce better on the PP. But Carle is far from the only reason why the Flyers PP was ineffective. The PP was down as a whole for everyone last Season

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Old
07-21-2011, 07:16 AM
  #44
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The problem is that your description of Carle's game simply isn't accurate. Carle is a solid defender. And if you actually watch the player, as yo suggest, and know what your looking at, you would know that. There's a lot of made up nonsense involving Carle and the player he is. And your post is just another example. And it can't be backed up with any solid facts.
You just ruled out someone else's opinion based on your own?

Carle makes some horrific defensive judgements. Ask anyone here

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Old
07-21-2011, 07:28 AM
  #45
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I'd give him his walking papers.

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Old
07-21-2011, 07:45 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You just ruled out someone else's opinion based on your own?

Carle makes some horrific defensive judgements. Ask anyone here

My opinion is an informed opinion based on the facts and the information available. Give me some facts or provide a link to an article writen by a credible NHL analyst that supports your opinion on Carle's play. Or is "ask anyone here" all you've got?
All defenseman have occasional lapses. It when you weigh a players positive play over his negative play. And Carle's positive play far outweighs the mistakes he makes.

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07-21-2011, 07:49 AM
  #47
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Wait what? Tell me how you would show a players bad defensive plays. I will show you how you can cover them up in statistic.

Jesus, hockey is played on the ice. I thought i was a stats freak, but some people really take the biscuit. I swear some of you think you could assemble a hockey team purely by looking at stats.

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07-21-2011, 07:52 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
My opinion is an informed opinion based on the facts and the information available. Give me some facts or provide a link to an article writen by a credible NHL analyst that supports your opinion on Carle's play. Or is "ask anyone here" all you've got?
All defenseman have occasional lapses. It when you weigh a players positive play over his negative play. And Carle's positive play far outweighs the mistakes he makes.
I've been watching hockey since I was born. I've played defense since I was 10-years-old (I was an excellent skater who drifted back at a young age), and have watched and attempted to emulate defensemen for years.

Carle is a poor defender. He refuses to use his body in his own zone. He fails to use it to initiate contact or to protect the puck. As a result, he dumps the puck off to vacant wings or merely throws the puck into traffic. His one saving grace in his own zone is his shot-blocking, and he's very good at that.

Ruff knew it and put Buffalo's most physical line on the ice against the Syvret-Carle pairing (one of Lavi's mistakes in the playoffs). It directly led to them winning a game 1-0, as it was the only goal scored in that game.

There are no statistics to show his inability to use his body, only people who know what they're looking for and people who don't. You fall into the latter group, as you've failed to actuallly mention how he is a fine player in his own zone.

He was paid correctly when the Flyers traded for him and he deserves a modest raise. It will be somewhere between an offensive specialist and a #3/#4 go-between: 3.75-4. Anything else is absurd considering his defensive deficiencies. If he commands more, I hope he ends up in the Atlantic because the Flyers' coaching staff would have an easy job with him.

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07-21-2011, 07:52 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
My opinion is an informed opinion based on the facts and the information available. Give me some facts or provide a link to an article writen by a credible NHL analyst that supports your opinion on Carle's play. Or is "ask anyone here" all you've got?
All defenseman have occasional lapses. It when you weigh a players positive play over his negative play. And Carle's positive play far outweighs the mistakes he makes.
Hi. I'm an expert.

Either way, Carle has some significant flaws to his game defensively.

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07-21-2011, 08:17 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Wait what? Tell me how you would show a players bad defensive plays. I will show you how you can cover them up in statistic.

Jesus, hockey is played on the ice. I thought i was a stats freak, but some people really take the biscuit. I swear some of you think you could assemble a hockey team purely by looking at stats.
Stats are only part of it. Show me some information from a credible source that substantiates your opinion. You con't do it because it doesn't exist. Simply ecauce you are incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
I've been watching hockey since I was born. I've played defense since I was 10-years-old (I was an excellent skater who drifted back at a young age), and have watched and attempted to emulate defensemen for years.

Carle is a poor defender. He refuses to use his body in his own zone. He fails to use it to initiate contact or to protect the puck. As a result, he dumps the puck off to vacant wings or merely throws the puck into traffic. His one saving grace in his own zone is his shot-blocking, and he's very good at that.

Ruff knew it and put Buffalo's most physical line on the ice against the Syvret-Carle pairing (one of Lavi's mistakes in the playoffs). It directly led to them winning a game 1-0, as it was the only goal scored in that game.

There are no statistics to show his inability to use his body, only people who know what they're looking for and people who don't. You fall into the latter group, as you've failed to actuallly mention how he is a fine player in his own zone.

He was paid correctly when the Flyers traded for him and he deserves a modest raise. It will be somewhere between an offensive specialist and a #3/#4 go-between: 3.75-4. Anything else is absurd considering his defensive deficiencies. If he commands more, I hope he ends up in the Atlantic because the Flyers' coaching staff would have an easy job with him.
There is no information that you can offer that supports your opinion that Carle is a poor defender. Because it's an uninformed opinion. You can not find any statistical data, or an opinion from a credible analyst that occurs with your opinion. You can tell me that I'm in the latter and in the group that doesn't know what I'm looking at until your blue in the face. They are hollow and meaningless words. All the information available says that you are incorrect. And you are incorrect.
Carle is actually pretty good as a smaller stature defenseman in using body position down low defensively. He is an outstanding puck mover. And another incorrect statement you've made is that I've failed to mention how Carle is a fine player in his own end. I've made numerous statements and provided numerouos facts over various threads supporting on how Carle is a fine player in his own end. And in fact, the article I posted to start this thread supports my opinion.

You obviously feel you need to qualify yourself with your opening statement, but your comments afterwords failed miserable to back that up. So just more hollow words.

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