HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Ottawa Senators
Notices

The Lansdowne Redevelopment

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-20-2011, 08:46 PM
  #1
hawthy
Registered User
 
hawthy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
The Lansdowne Redevelopment

I'm sure conversations have gone on here at some point regarding the heated topic, but as of recently I cannot find one so I just started a new thread about it. I think/assume most Sens posters on here do live in Ottawa, and with a pretty major court decision coming within probably the next 10-days, it's probably a good time for a heated debate (no pun to the weather).

After reading the Sun's article http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/07/20/...-city-to-court, my mind is seriously BLOWN that, for once, our City Council made a postive, progressive decision for our growing CAPITAL city, and there are people who seek to sabotage it. Equally as frustrating is the FOL's position that they are only upset that a process wasn't followed, when before Council voted in favour of OSEG, it was not wanting the traffic and outdoor stadium in their neighbourhood. I know the above article has nothing to do with FOL, but it's seriously mind-boggling that there is a clear group of smart, stand up guys, one of whom is a lock when it comes to knowing the Ottawa Sports scene and how to run a team in the city, who would essentially turn Lansdowne Park into the gem of the City, easily give Ottawa a nationally recognized outdoor sports and entertainment venue (and probably be a national envy), and people are working and spending money to STOP this?

I'm not even trying to hide that I'm desperate for CFL football back in a city it never should have left, but even aside from that, how do we have people like this in the city? Maybe a better question: Why is Ottawa such a b***h town of whiners and complainers? We could have it so much better here if there wasn't ALWAYS some person or group of people opposed to everything.

Anyway, any thoughts on either side of the Great Lansdowne debate? Anyone becoming skeptical that the bulldozers will ever start work under the OSEG regime? I tell you all this: If and when we're back at Lansdowne Park in a few years on a sunny Friday night for CFL football, I'll be enjoying it that much more. And yes, I do think this is eventually going to come to fruition with the OSEG group.


Last edited by hawthy: 07-20-2011 at 08:58 PM.
hawthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 08:54 PM
  #2
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
It's the Glebe.....do people really think that they would ever give up on their dream of having a central park to walk their dogs and sip their cappuccino's?

The more this thing is delayed, the more it's costing tax payer's money. No one else put forward a bid, council voted on it, Jeff Hunt is a great person to have at the front of this project.

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:07 PM
  #3
ben3001
Registered User
 
ben3001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,083
vCash: 500
I would seriously recommend you broaden your horizons past the partisan opinion of the Sun and look at the core issues being debated here. I don't believe that anyone is against having a new sports franchise in Ottawa nor that something had to be done with the Lansdowne Park. However there are serious issues of ethics and values that we hold as a society that need to be addressed and that are being swept under the rug with this development. In particular, there is a clear loss of the understanding of what a public space consists of and how it should be developed. In North America the issue of public space has always been a hard one to understand, but no matter how blurry the concept, the biggest public space in the city should never in any way be turned away to a single source development plan that had no open public call for entry. Secondly, it should remain public and not be the terrain for speculation driven development and privatized commercial activity. Furthermore the whole process through which this project came to life has since the start been overshadowed by shady deals and very questionable agreements. There are still some serious risks for the city to get involve with this project that revolve around how the deal was basically brokered for and to the benefit of the developers of the site.

The greatest shame I see with Lansdowne is however how once again an issue worth debating and talking about has been spun in such a way as to create a direct polarity of position to clearly avoid real discussion on the matter. I would of told you to read the Ottawa Citizen's blogger Maria Cook on the matter (the wife of one of the most respected architects in Ottawa and a great journalist) but her blog was shut down by Minto and friends. It is much easier to insite hatred for "snobby whinny leftist glebe residents" than to actually have a calm and collected debate on the mater. As such, issues like the nature and occupation of public space; the worrying of monopole profit driven corporations like Minto in the development of Ottawa at the cost of quality of life and good design; as well as the questionable involvement of previous city administration officials with developers are all being swept aside in a slurry of incendiary comments.

ben3001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:10 PM
  #4
hawthy
Registered User
 
hawthy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
If you think I get my opinions from the Ottawa Sun of all places, simply because of an article I linked to in a post that didn't even speak to the article, then you shouldn't be making assumptions.

hawthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:11 PM
  #5
Stylizer1
Registered User
 
Stylizer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,439
vCash: 50
I want CFL back in Ottawa and can't wait for the new Landsdown but the fact that tax payers are on the hook for so much and that those ******** at Minto are going to be making boat loads of money doesn't sit well with me. I just don't like the deal.

Stylizer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:22 PM
  #6
hawthy
Registered User
 
hawthy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
And maybe another source of my frustration is the tools people have to complain. The residents of Ottawa voted in a Council to make decisions for the city. Ottawa usually tends to get a poor collection of individuals that make up council, but I digress. Agree or disagree, the Council WE as members of the City elected to resprent the city we live in, did what they were elected to do and make a decision. I'm only saying this because, ben3001, it is so clear that this has nothing to do with the process that was followed to the FOL and everything to do with the plan for redevelopment. It's fine to obviously feel a certain way about things, but when you mould your argument to keep the development frozen, it's pathetic.

As Shanny eluded to, if the sole-sourced plan was to turn Lansdowne into a big green space, with park benches, granola vendors and sunshine, would FOL (aka the Glebe) still be doing this?

The answer is no.

hawthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:25 PM
  #7
BK201
Registered User
 
BK201's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben3001 View Post
I would seriously recommend you broaden your horizons past the partisan opinion of the Sun and look at the core issues being debated here. I don't believe that anyone is against having a new sports franchise in Ottawa nor that something had to be done with the Lansdowne Park. However there are serious issues of ethics and values that we hold as a society that need to be addressed and that are being swept under the rug with this development. In particular, there is a clear loss of the understanding of what a public space consists of and how it should be developed. In North America the issue of public space has always been a hard one to understand, but no matter how blurry the concept, the biggest public space in the city should never in any way be turned away to a single source development plan that had no open public call for entry. Secondly, it should remain public and not be the terrain for speculation driven development and privatized commercial activity. Furthermore the whole process through which this project came to life has since the start been overshadowed by shady deals and very questionable agreements. There are still some serious risks for the city to get involve with this project that revolve around how the deal was basically brokered for and to the benefit of the developers of the site.

The greatest shame I see with Lansdowne is however how once again an issue worth debating and talking about has been spun in such a way as to create a direct polarity of position to clearly avoid real discussion on the matter. I would of told you to read the Ottawa Citizen's blogger Maria Cook on the matter (the wife of one of the most respected architects in Ottawa and a great journalist) but her blog was shut down by Minto and friends. It is much easier to insite hatred for "snobby whinny leftist glebe residents" than to actually have a calm and collected debate on the mater. As such, issues like the nature and occupation of public space; the worrying of monopole profit driven corporations like Minto in the development of Ottawa at the cost of quality of life and good design; as well as the questionable involvement of previous city administration officials with developers are all being swept aside in a slurry of incendiary comments.
well all i can say to you is no matter how shady and unethical it is to you. i'm pretty sure every step taken has been 100% legal, yes that's right, legal and the friends of landsdown are wasting tax payers money.

in fact i would propose that after this crap is over friends of landsdown should have to foot the bill for us taxpayers who just want this over with and the stadium fixed.

you are naive to think politics and money will be 100 ethical.

BK201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:49 PM
  #8
smithy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 247
vCash: 500
I think the Lansdowne redevelopment is a HUGE mistake. Corruption allegations aside, it is simply poor urban planning.

Bank Street and the NCC parkways can't handle the vast amount of traffic that the development will bring to the area. A stadium should be in an accessible place, if not off the Queensway then at a transit hub like Bayview or Hurdman. Lansdowne meets neither of these conditions. This is a really big problem for everyone, not just residents of the Glebe, and once the shovels start digging this mistake will not be reversible for decades. That will be a much greater cost than having to put up with the parking lot for another few years until a much better proposal comes along (and it would).

What should be done is the city should do a land swap with the NCC, e.g. Lansdowne for the area around Hurdman. The NCC can develop Lansdowne properly into a fantastic park that commemorates each of the provinces along its UNESCO Heritage Rideau Canal, and the people of OSEG can take their retail/stadium project to a place that is actually accessible to most of the city.

If you want CFL, fine. But this proposal is not the way to do it. Don't be fooled by the promise of football.

smithy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:55 PM
  #9
BK201
Registered User
 
BK201's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,698
vCash: 500
I don't know what to say Smithy the arena has been there for a long time and I've not seen these problems yet.

The only traffic problems I see down there is when people block the street parking in thier neighborhoods to the canal because they don't like the traffic.

BK201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 09:55 PM
  #10
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy View Post
I think the Lansdowne redevelopment is a HUGE mistake. Corruption allegations aside, it is simply poor urban planning.

Bank Street and the NCC parkways can't handle the vast amount of traffic that the development will bring to the area. A stadium should be in an accessible place, if not off the Queensway then at a transit hub like Bayview or Hurdman. Lansdowne meets neither of these conditions. This is a really big problem for everyone, not just residents of the Glebe, and once the shovels start digging this mistake will not be reversible for decades. That will be a much greater cost than having to put up with the parking lot for another few years until a much better proposal comes along (and it would).

What should be done is the city should do a land swap with the NCC, e.g. Lansdowne for the area around Hurdman. The NCC can develop Lansdowne properly into a fantastic park that commemorates each of the provinces along its UNESCO Heritage Rideau Canal, and the people of OSEG can take their retail/stadium project to a place that is actually accessible to most of the city.

If you want CFL, fine. But this proposal is not the way to do it. Don't be fooled by the promise of football.
The stadium has been there for over 100 years, traffic wasn't an issue before(unless of course you live in the glebe and don't like seeing cars parked on a city street in front of your house).

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:02 PM
  #11
smithy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
The stadium has been there for over 100 years, traffic wasn't an issue before(unless of course you live in the glebe and don't like seeing cars parked on a city street in front of your house).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
I don't know what to say Smithy the arena has been there for a long time and I've not seen these problems yet.

The only traffic problems I see down there is when people block the street parking in thier neighborhoods to the canal because they don't like the traffic.

This isn't just a stadium. It is a stadium, retail, and condominium development. Parking will be much worse than it was before.

smithy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:06 PM
  #12
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy View Post
This isn't just a stadium. It is a stadium, retail, and condominium development. Parking will be much worse than it was before.
Which is why they are building underground parking garages and expanding transit service to the area.

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:10 PM
  #13
smithy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
Which is why they are building underground parking garages and expanding transit service to the area.
Not enough. The parking report relied on optimistic numbers for parking on city streets, and OC Transpo can barely fit more buses on Bank Street. This is going to be a logistical disaster.

smithy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:15 PM
  #14
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy View Post
Not enough. The parking report relied on optimistic numbers for parking on city streets, and OC Transpo can barely fit more buses on Bank Street. This is going to be a logistical disaster.
The only time things might get a little congested are on gamedays(10 days a year), even then, I was there with 55 000 other people for the Grey Cup in 04, and it really wasn't that much of headache at all getting down there and parking. FOL is just grasping for anything at this point to sway the public opinion in their favour.

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:19 PM
  #15
smithy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
The only time things might get a little congested are on gamedays(10 days a year), even then, I was there with 55 000 other people for the Grey Cup in 04, and it really wasn't that much of headache at all getting down there and parking. FOL is just grasping for anything at this point to sway the public opinion in their favour.
Again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy View Post
This isn't just a stadium. It is a stadium, retail, and condominium development. Parking will be much worse than it was before.
Look, I admire your optimism, and your passion for the CFL. But this is a bad deal.

smithy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:22 PM
  #16
BK201
Registered User
 
BK201's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,698
vCash: 500
So your saying because there putting in some condos and a theatre it will be over crowded?

Maybe we should remove some houses and put in some parks to reduce traffic too.

BK201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:24 PM
  #17
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy View Post
Again:



Look, I admire your optimism, and your passion for the CFL. But this is a bad deal.
Again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
Which is why they are building underground parking garages and expanding transit service to the area.

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:25 PM
  #18
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
....annnd again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
The stadium has been there for over 100 years, traffic wasn't an issue before(unless of course you live in the glebe and don't like seeing cars parked on a city street in front of your house).

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:37 PM
  #19
Holdurbreathe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,419
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
The stadium has been there for over 100 years, traffic wasn't an issue before(unless of course you live in the glebe and don't like seeing cars parked on a city street in front of your house).
With a statement like this it makes me wonder if you have ever attended an event at Landsdowne. I was a season ticket holder for the Rough Riders and Senators and I can assure you, there definitely was traffic problems.

Development or not, Bank Street south of the Queensway to Billings Bridge is a nightmare almost everyday of the week, and that is without an event at Landsdowne.

Holdurbreathe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:41 PM
  #20
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
With a statement like this it makes me wonder if you have ever attended an event at Landsdowne. I was a season ticket holder for the Rough Riders and Senators and I can assure you, there definitely was traffic problems.

Development or not, Bank Street south of the Queensway to Billings Bridge is a nightmare almost everyday of the week, and that is without an event at Landsdowne.
At almost all sporting events there will be traffic problems(SBP prime example), it's just part a part of life. Some people just can't seem to accept that.

...and through my experience on gamedays down there, I've never had a problem parking or getting there in reasonable time for the most part.

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:46 PM
  #21
BK201
Registered User
 
BK201's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
At almost all sporting events there will be traffic problems(SBP prime example), it's just part a part of life. Some people just can't seem to accept that.
+1

I went to the NAC it took me an hour to get out of thier parking garage.

Last sens game it took my friend 50 minutes to get out and then he had to drive to Orleans.

Let's face it the rest of Ottawa does not care If the glebe gets traffic problems as A) we don't live there and B) want a nice stadium by the canal with cool **** around it.

BK201 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 10:57 PM
  #22
Fenix Rises 2026
Alfie forever!
 
Fenix Rises 2026's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,001
vCash: 500
It's funny, I don't have an opinion on the park itself. Like most people, I can't afford to live anywhere near the place. But I love it that a bunch of rich people think they can have a say on what happens to a park on municipal property 15 blocks from their house. It cracks me up. They think it's like their backyard or something.

If I had a say, I would vote for putting in a SAPF franchise.


Fenix Rises 2026 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 11:03 PM
  #23
Shanny
Coming In Hot
 
Shanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bytown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
+1

Let's face it the rest of Ottawa does not care If the glebe gets traffic problems as A) we don't live there and B) want a nice stadium by the canal with cool **** around it.
Basically this, of course now they are going come at us with ''do you even know what overdevelopment is'' stuff, truth is, I LIVE IN WESTBORO....I know exactly what it's like to have a ton of condo and retail space going up left right and center in my neighbourhood.

Shanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 11:24 PM
  #24
Holdurbreathe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,419
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
....annnd again
Originally Posted by Shanny
The stadium has been there for over 100 years, traffic wasn't an issue before(unless of course you live in the glebe and don't like seeing cars parked on a city street in front of your house).

Repeating something that is false over and over, never makes it true.

According to the transportation/traffic study done for Landsdowne Live, it is anticipated that during the busiest time period, new traffic on: Bank Street would be 100 to 120 vehicles per hour (vph) per direction, which is 2 “new” vehicles per minute. (Existing two-way traffic on Bank Street is currently 1700 vph during commuter peak hours.)

Remember Shanny, this is not traffic due to any special event, just everyday routine traffic. Broken down, that is a car every 2 secs in each direction. By most people's definition, this volume of traffic on streets controlled with traffic lights, is a driver's nightmare.

Impact of special events under the Lansdowne proposal
An important part of this strategy is to encourage those who choose to take transit, cycle or use the off-site parking. This would be accomplished by making transit, off-site parking, shuttle services, and secure on-site bicycle parking corrals free and included in the cost in the ticket price. The price increase would range from $0.60 to $5 per ticket depending on the size of the event.

Special events with attendance of 10,000. Most intersections would continue to operate at good levels of service. For events of this size all parking could be accommodated on-site and on the streets within the study area. Transit frequency would be increased on regular bus routes to accommodate increased demand.

Special events with attendance of 25,000. These types of special events would happen infrequently –approximately 10 to 15 times per year. To support them, it is proposed that OC Transpo operate special direct routes that make use of their major suburban park-and-ride lots. Further, transit service increases on OC Transpo’s regular routes would supplement the areas not served by these special routes. In addition, off-site parking with frequent shuttle service in the area of Carleton University and in the vicinity of Confederation Heights would bring people to the site. The preferred routing for the shuttles is via Bronson Avenue and Queen Elizabeth Driveway.

Bank Street intersections would be improved during 25,000-person events by using parking restrictions to create two traffic lanes for vehicles travelling toward Lansdowne, similar to restrictions during the afternoon commuter peak.

Special events with attendance of 40,000. On -site parking will not be available and about 7,000 off-site parking spaces would be required. Except for those who park on the streets, all event-goers arriving by car would access the Lansdowne site by shuttle bus from off-site parking areas. Traffic police would be needed to direct key intersections. Bank Street and Queen Elizabeth Driveway would be closed around Lansdowne to facilitate the safe arrival and departure of event-goers.

Based on this, I think it is pretty safe to say the city realizes the potential traffic issues, and plans to take extraordinary measures, even if you fail to acknowledge the potential problem.

Holdurbreathe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2011, 11:31 PM
  #25
Holdurbreathe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,419
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
Basically this, of course now they are going come at us with ''do you even know what overdevelopment is'' stuff, truth is, I LIVE IN WESTBORO....I know exactly what it's like to have a ton of condo and retail space going up left right and center in my neighbourhood.
Westboro is a mess, Bank near Lansdowne is a mess, only one key difference.... no stadium in Westboro!!!!!


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 07-20-2011 at 11:45 PM.
Holdurbreathe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.