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The Lansdowne Redevelopment

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Old
07-20-2011, 11:44 PM
  #26
Holdurbreathe
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Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
At almost all sporting events there will be traffic problems(SBP prime example), it's just part a part of life. Some people just can't seem to accept that.

...and through my experience on gamedays down there, I've never had a problem parking or getting there in reasonable time for the most part.
You must have gone when Chen and Glieberman were running the zoo, most games back then there weren't enough people attending to be called a crowd, hence no traffic problem.

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07-20-2011, 11:57 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
You must have gone when Chen and Glieberman were running the zoo, most games back then there weren't enough people attending to be called a crowd, hence no traffic problem.
Nope, have been to a number of Gades ball games and the Grey Cup, just snuck onto Bronson from the queensway, then parked in the Glebe and walked to Frank Clair from there.

btw your still ignoring my original point in that post

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07-21-2011, 12:22 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
Nope, have been to a number of Gades ball games and the Grey Cup, just snuck onto Bronson from the queensway, then parked in the Glebe and walked to Frank Clair from there.

btw your still ignoring my original point in that post
Your point that all sporting events have traffic problems? Traffic is definitely heavier when there is a concentration of vehicles, but I have attended hockey and football games in Montreal and Toronto and getting in and out is significantly easier/faster than at Ottawa's sporting venues. There is a simple reason for this, those two cities have better road networks and public transit.

The City of Ottawa has yet to figure out how to move traffic out of SBP effectively, a facility that sits within 100M of the Queensway, in an area that has little local traffic in the evening.

Yet you believe traffic movement won't be a problem at Landsdowne, a facility that can only be accessed by two, one lane roads, one of which is already overloaded.

Which was my point that you chose to ignore.

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07-21-2011, 12:33 AM
  #29
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What you posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Originally Posted by Shanny
The stadium has been there for over 100 years, traffic wasn't an issue before(unless of course you live in the glebe and don't like seeing cars parked on a city street in front of your house).

Repeating something that is false over and over, never makes it true.

According to the transportation/traffic study done for Landsdowne Live, it is anticipated that during the busiest time period, new traffic on: Bank Street would be 100 to 120 vehicles per hour (vph) per direction, which is 2 “new” vehicles per minute. (Existing two-way traffic on Bank Street is currently 1700 vph during commuter peak hours.)

Remember Shanny, this is not traffic due to any special event, just everyday routine traffic. Broken down, that is a car every 2 secs in each direction. By most people's definition, this volume of traffic on streets controlled with traffic lights, is a driver's nightmare.

Impact of special events under the Lansdowne proposal
An important part of this strategy is to encourage those who choose to take transit, cycle or use the off-site parking. This would be accomplished by making transit, off-site parking, shuttle services, and secure on-site bicycle parking corrals free and included in the cost in the ticket price. The price increase would range from $0.60 to $5 per ticket depending on the size of the event.

Special events with attendance of 10,000. Most intersections would continue to operate at good levels of service. For events of this size all parking could be accommodated on-site and on the streets within the study area. Transit frequency would be increased on regular bus routes to accommodate increased demand.

Special events with attendance of 25,000. These types of special events would happen infrequently –approximately 10 to 15 times per year. To support them, it is proposed that OC Transpo operate special direct routes that make use of their major suburban park-and-ride lots. Further, transit service increases on OC Transpo’s regular routes would supplement the areas not served by these special routes. In addition, off-site parking with frequent shuttle service in the area of Carleton University and in the vicinity of Confederation Heights would bring people to the site. The preferred routing for the shuttles is via Bronson Avenue and Queen Elizabeth Driveway.

Bank Street intersections would be improved during 25,000-person events by using parking restrictions to create two traffic lanes for vehicles travelling toward Lansdowne, similar to restrictions during the afternoon commuter peak.

Special events with attendance of 40,000. On -site parking will not be available and about 7,000 off-site parking spaces would be required. Except for those who park on the streets, all event-goers arriving by car would access the Lansdowne site by shuttle bus from off-site parking areas. Traffic police would be needed to direct key intersections. Bank Street and Queen Elizabeth Driveway would be closed around Lansdowne to facilitate the safe arrival and departure of event-goers.

Based on this, I think it is pretty safe to say the city realizes the potential traffic issues, and plans to take extraordinary measures, even if you fail to acknowledge the potential problem.
What some people will choose to read:

Quote:
I hate football and any other sport and to hell with suburbanites getting in the way of my Volvo.
It's a fun topic.

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07-21-2011, 12:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
Nope, have been to a number of Gades ball games and the Grey Cup, just snuck onto Bronson from the queensway, then parked in the Glebe and walked to Frank Clair from there.

btw your still ignoring my original point in that post
FYI, Glieberman owned the Gades!!!!!

Fact: Riders attendance was atrocious, led to Chen folding the team in 1996.

Fact: Renegades attendance was atrocious, the team lost millions, in 2006 folded after only four years.

Using traffic samples from games played under these ownerships isn't a relevant sample, since attendance never got close to capacity.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 07-21-2011 at 01:01 AM.
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Old
07-21-2011, 01:00 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
What you posted:

What some people will choose to read:

I hate football and any other sport and to hell with suburbanites getting in the way of my Volvo.

It's a fun topic.
Yes it is!!!!

I actually love football, love the CFL, just don't believe Lansdowne is the best location.

BTW: the information in the post you quoted, 95% of it came directly from the City of Ottawa web site. So I guess the city of Ottawa hates football and any other sport and to hell with suburbanites getting in the way of their Volvos.

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07-21-2011, 01:29 AM
  #32
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Stupid question: can't they just put it where Lynx stadium is (make it bigger, transform it, develop around it, whatever it takes)? Baseball in Ottawa is dead anyway (unfortunately), football fans would get their football in a relatively easily accessible place (near the highway!), and no more deadlock on game night anywhere near Landsdowne. And, you know, having a nice big park in the middle of the city is not the worst idea ever. Ever been to New York, London or Paris?

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07-21-2011, 05:04 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DrEasy View Post
Stupid question: can't they just put it where Lynx stadium is (make it bigger, transform it, develop around it, whatever it takes)? Baseball in Ottawa is dead anyway (unfortunately), football fans would get their football in a relatively easily accessible place (near the highway!), and no more deadlock on game night anywhere near Landsdowne. And, you know, having a nice big park in the middle of the city is not the worst idea ever. Ever been to New York, London or Paris?
Unfortunately, the parking at Lynx stadium is quite limited. Great location, no place to park. I like the Lansdowne location for the CFL, shows off a bit of the nicer/older area of town and if a deal has to made with the business class to get it done, then so be it. That being said, I don't live there so it's no big deal for me if someone's life style is inconvenienced for the sake of a my entertainment.

I see the argument coming down to mass transportation. It doesn't seem to matter where things get put, the brain-trust that run the buses here can't figure out how to move the people. Ottawa transport is so bad that it's actually news worthy on how poorly things run.

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07-21-2011, 06:25 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DrEasy View Post
Stupid question: can't they just put it where Lynx stadium is (make it bigger, transform it, develop around it, whatever it takes)? Baseball in Ottawa is dead anyway (unfortunately), football fans would get their football in a relatively easily accessible place (near the highway!), and no more deadlock on game night anywhere near Landsdowne. And, you know, having a nice big park in the middle of the city is not the worst idea ever. Ever been to New York, London or Paris?
The thing is ottawa has many parks and does have some big parks if ottawa was lacking parks you know i could this this beeing a very legit concern but were not lacking parks in any way.If they did do you plan the thing is it would likely cost far far more then what landsdown is you would have to tear down the baseball stadium build underground parking build a new football stadium a new arena etc it would not be cheap.

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07-21-2011, 06:31 AM
  #35
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I would seriously recommend you broaden your horizons past the partisan opinion of the Sun and look at the core issues being debated here. I don't believe that anyone is against having a new sports franchise in Ottawa nor that something had to be done with the Lansdowne Park. However there are serious issues of ethics and values that we hold as a society that need to be addressed and that are being swept under the rug with this development. In particular, there is a clear loss of the understanding of what a public space consists of and how it should be developed. In North America the issue of public space has always been a hard one to understand, but no matter how blurry the concept, the biggest public space in the city should never in any way be turned away to a single source development plan that had no open public call for entry. Secondly, it should remain public and not be the terrain for speculation driven development and privatized commercial activity. Furthermore the whole process through which this project came to life has since the start been overshadowed by shady deals and very questionable agreements. There are still some serious risks for the city to get involve with this project that revolve around how the deal was basically brokered for and to the benefit of the developers of the site.

The greatest shame I see with Lansdowne is however how once again an issue worth debating and talking about has been spun in such a way as to create a direct polarity of position to clearly avoid real discussion on the matter. I would of told you to read the Ottawa Citizen's blogger Maria Cook on the matter (the wife of one of the most respected architects in Ottawa and a great journalist) but her blog was shut down by Minto and friends. It is much easier to insite hatred for "snobby whinny leftist glebe residents" than to actually have a calm and collected debate on the mater. As such, issues like the nature and occupation of public space; the worrying of monopole profit driven corporations like Minto in the development of Ottawa at the cost of quality of life and good design; as well as the questionable involvement of previous city administration officials with developers are all being swept aside in a slurry of incendiary comments.
Really quality of life lets see there would be a state of the art sports and entertainment complex likely resulting in a rebound for the glebe they would benifit.Yes there are issues but the issue is if a devloper came along and said we plan on building a central park very few would speak out this has more to do with some want a huge park.

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07-21-2011, 06:32 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
FYI, Glieberman owned the Gades!!!!!

Fact: Riders attendance was atrocious, led to Chen folding the team in 1996.

Fact: Renegades attendance was atrocious, the team lost millions, in 2006 folded after only four years.

Using traffic samples from games played under these ownerships isn't a relevant sample, since attendance never got close to capacity.
For many years the riders attendance was very very good.

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07-21-2011, 06:44 AM
  #37
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Really quality of life lets see there would be a state of the art sports and entertainment complex likely resulting in a rebound for the glebe they would benifit.Yes there are issues but the issue is if a devloper came along and said we plan on building a central park very few would speak out this has more to do with some want a huge park.
agreed but i don't worry to much. the cost to actually remove the stadiums and all the concrete and everything and than fill the ground and make a park is just way to much money for a park for the city to spend.

It's quite expense, like astronomically expensive for building a park and i'm sure the rest of the city would **** a brick. mainly because we would still have to spend the money on building a new stadium. so you see as much as we get mad at the glebe folks we should kick back relax stop getting so angry and let nature take it's course.

they'll complain the stadium will be built there will be some traffic problems. probably not as bad or good as anyone thinks and everyone will be happy(except for glebe folks) until our football fold due to lack of attendance :/.

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07-21-2011, 07:02 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
FYI, Glieberman owned the Gades!!!!!

Fact: Riders attendance was atrocious, led to Chen folding the team in 1996.

Fact: Renegades attendance was atrocious, the team lost millions, in 2006 folded after only four years.

Using traffic samples from games played under these ownerships isn't a relevant sample, since attendance never got close to capacity.
I'll reiterate, I was their for the Grey Cup(54 000), and a buddy of mine was their for the Rollling Stones concert(45 000) a few years back as well. Their were a number of slowdowns in that area(which is to be expected) but no where near as bad as people seem to be making it out to be.

Besides, on gamedays(only 10 times a year) there will be considerably less people at lansdowne then there were at those 2 events I just mentioned.

Also just curious, were you there for the Fifa World Cup games, aside from the cracks found in the concrete.....those games were a huge success(and yes parking wasn't a huge issue then as well).

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07-21-2011, 07:15 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Your point that all sporting events have traffic problems? Traffic is definitely heavier when there is a concentration of vehicles, but I have attended hockey and football games in Montreal and Toronto and getting in and out is significantly easier/faster than at Ottawa's sporting venues. There is a simple reason for this, those two cities have better road networks and public transit.

The City of Ottawa has yet to figure out how to move traffic out of SBP effectively, a facility that sits within 100M of the Queensway, in an area that has little local traffic in the evening.

Yet you believe traffic movement won't be a problem at Landsdowne, a facility that can only be accessed by two, one lane roads, one of which is already overloaded.

Which was my point that you chose to ignore.
I've been a few games at the Bell Centre(which is right off St.Catherines street in the heart of downtown montreal, as well as the Grey Cup at the Big O in 08, and head down there every year for Osheaga.....a number of traffic problems as well, it certainly helps to have a huge rapid transit system though.(something Ottawa will never have it seems)

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07-21-2011, 08:11 AM
  #40
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Classic Ottawa debate. Rage on about the stadium being kept in the city in its historic location, but if it was moved out of the core, people would rage on about it being in the boonies, just like they do about SBP.

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07-21-2011, 08:19 AM
  #41
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Not enough. The parking report relied on optimistic numbers for parking on city streets, and OC Transpo can barely fit more buses on Bank Street. This is going to be a logistical disaster.
How the he!! do you know whether it is enough or not?

Are you a traffic engineer that has studied the issue?
Have you read the studies and drawn any conclusions? or are you relying on third party rhetoric?

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07-21-2011, 08:19 AM
  #42
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The Friends of Lansdowne is made up of people who have moved in next to a stadium and a site that has been the center of sports in Ottawa for over a century and are trying deny that heritage and ensure a quiet neighborhood and will fight any project that injects any life into the place by whatever means possible.

Its interesting that for a group of people who are ready at the drop of a hat to accuse others of being crooked they are not very above board themselves. They have allied themselves with John Martin, who comes off like a slap chop salesman ,and his absurd Conservancy plan ,as though it is a viable alternative when in fact it would not be considered for a minute by any city anywhere.

It is profoundly undemocratic that if a group of people have the means the can derail and through their delays, override the decisions of city council.

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07-21-2011, 08:23 AM
  #43
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Classic Ottawa debate. Rage on about the stadium being kept in the city in its historic location, but if it was moved out of the core, people would rage on about it being in the boonies, just like they do about SBP.
Pretty much.....although I still think SBP should have been built on Lebreton Flats

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07-21-2011, 08:26 AM
  #44
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The Friends of Lansdowne is made up of people who have moved in next to a stadium and a site that has been the center of sports in Ottawa for over a century and are trying deny that heritage and ensure a quiet neighborhood and will fight any project that injects any life into the place by whatever means possible.

Its interesting that for a group of people who are ready at the drop of a hat to accuse others of being crooked they are not very above board themselves. They have allied themselves with John Martin, who comes off like a slap chop salesman ,and his absurd Conservancy plan ,as though it is a viable alternative when in fact it would not be considered for a minute by any city anywhere.

It is profoundly undemocratic that if a group of people have the means the can derail and through their delays, override the decisions of city council.
My fear is if the city said ok were going to make everyone happy we will turn landsdown in a central park and build a new stadium and arena people still would not be happy.

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07-21-2011, 08:37 AM
  #45
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Landsdowne would also be the perfect place to put a permanent open air place to house the various festivals that require music - its a natural place with all the parking the football stadium will have to put the jazz, folk, franco ontarien, country, chamber, even tulip, and winterlude. Either that or the baseball park, but Landsdowne would be better.

Build something along the lines of Lanaudiere or Tanglewood that could be used all year round for these events and not have to rely on tents and having to pay the huge amount of money to re-landscape city hall, parks and museum spaces many times a year.

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07-21-2011, 08:46 AM
  #46
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Landsdowne would also be the perfect place to put a permanent open air place to house the various festivals that require music - its a natural place with all the parking the football stadium will have to put the jazz, folk, franco ontarien, country, chamber, even tulip, and winterlude. Either that or the baseball park, but Landsdowne would be better.

Build something along the lines of Lanaudiere or Tanglewood that could be used all year round for these events and not have to rely on tents and having to pay the huge amount of money to re-landscape city hall, parks and museum spaces many times a year.
We already went through this process, council voted on this over a year ago, the majority of the city is on board with it, no one else put forward a bid. Why start exactly where we left off in 2007, it's just so redundant, we'll basically be in the same spot that were in now in 5 year's with a football stadium falling apart, and a big slab of empty parking lots. By then it will cost even more money to get this thing going after another round of years of neglect.

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07-21-2011, 08:52 AM
  #47
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For many years the riders attendance was very very good.
Very true, but that was over 20 years ago.

My comments weren't meant to suggest the future version of the Riders wouldn't be a success, just that the Riders in their later years and the Renagades didn't attract many fans.

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07-21-2011, 08:55 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Very true, but that was over 20 years ago.

My comments weren't meant to suggest the future version of the Riders wouldn't be a success, just that the Riders in their later years and the Renagades didn't attract many fans.
I don't think some grasp what turning alndsdown into a park would do it would likely mean the 67s will move we would lose ice time as many youth and adult teams play at the civic centre we would lose a concert and event venue.With that said there has to be dome give and take by both sides it should not just be a huge retail complex and it should not just be a huge park.

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07-21-2011, 08:56 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
We already went through this process, council voted on this over a year ago, the majority of the city is on board with it, no one else put forward a bid. Why start exactly where we left off in 2007, it's just so redundant, we'll basically be in the same spot that were in now in 5 year's with a football stadium falling apart, and a big slab of empty parking lots. By then it will cost even more money to get this thing going after another round of years of neglect.
Exactly the fact of the matter is if we build a park there it will cost millions upon millions to redevelop land that has a stadium on it into a park and then millions and millions to redevelop forest land into a stadium.

I think really the city of Ottawa can't afford to do both and they can't afford to do nothing.

So really the only option we have is to fix the stadium were it lies now.

Clearly friends if landsdown are not friends of Ottawa tax payers.

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07-21-2011, 08:56 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by operasen View Post
Landsdowne would also be the perfect place to put a permanent open air place to house the various festivals that require music - its a natural place with all the parking the football stadium will have to put the jazz, folk, franco ontarien, country, chamber, even tulip, and winterlude. Either that or the baseball park, but Landsdowne would be better.

Build something along the lines of Lanaudiere or Tanglewood that could be used all year round for these events and not have to rely on tents and having to pay the huge amount of money to re-landscape city hall, parks and museum spaces many times a year.
The reason that the Tulip festival was sometimes held in a tent was not because there was no space for it-it was held at Majors Hill Park, a perfect location -but because the weather had caused so many delays and cancellations. I don't think having it at Lansdowne would change the weather systems.

Chamber Fest is held in churches where there are organs and a set up for chamber music. if they wanted to have the odd outdoor concert. there are many venues for it in Ottawa.
.
The Jazz festival is fine at Confederation Park especially considering how it has not become a part of the Canada Day tradition. I think most people would not welcome a move to Lansdowne.

Imagine the non stop monitoring of decibel levels that would occur at any music festival in the Glebe

There are no shortage of venues for the festivals, most of them are fine where they are. This is just one of the proposals pushed by the folks who want no sports, no football. soccer or junior hockey. at Lansdowne. and to keep it instead as a dead quiet stretch of empty grass or asphalt.
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