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Old
07-20-2011, 10:40 AM
  #51
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScopeHockey View Post
Not to mention that Moore was used sparingly on the PK by Martin, while Halpern became one of our best PKers.
Interesting to note, however, that Halpern (paired with Cammalleri, in fairness) is listed on "regular" forward pairings that feature some of our worst GA/60 mins PK, and his 14 PP goals against seems pretty high for a guy in that role (although Moore was on the ice for 19 this year with the Lightning, so...) He did look pretty effective at times, though, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
The only reason Moore got 1.15M is because, you guessed it, he priced himself out.

IIRC, he signed in late July when most teams had their rosters almost fully complete.

Joke's on you
Actually, I think the evidence we have at this point suggests that it's far more likely that Gauthier wasn't willing to give anything longer than a 1 year deal on a player that he wasn't absolutely "sold" on. He didn't price himself out of Montreal at all. His salary last year was actually lower than it was in 2009-10, and his current cap hit is exactly the same as it was then. PG obviously thought he could find as good for cheaper, and he almost did. Almost. Problem is that Moore is still good, and now we're already looking for a replacement for his replacement and we have tonnes of cash. I think PG would absolutely (and kinda obviously) prefer that the 4th centre solution came internally (in the form of Engqvist, or whoever), as the whole situation would seem more by design than "luck" that someone was ready to jump into the roster full time to fill the role. If he has to go external again, it's going to look like he's sewing a patchwork quilt for a bottom 6 (which should be the easiest roles to develop internally, you'd think, given that most players never live up to their ultimate potential but are often still serviceable players at worst).


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07-20-2011, 11:42 AM
  #52
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I'd like for us to give Engqvist a shot at training camp first, time to start developing these guys instead of signing temporary solutions (Moore, Metro, Halpern, etc). If he doesn't look ready for it then worst case scenario is we have to go knock on someones door before season starts. Should be a few teams with spare fourth liners before the season.
I agree with giving Engqvist a shot, though you can't fault PG for either of the Halpern or Moore acquisitions, since both players fitted in beautifully while they were here...

Engqvist has the size, right handed shot, and defensive awareness that we are looking for, he really just needs to go from fringe to stud in the faceoff circle to carve out a real NHL role for himself...

I hope they got him working on that daily...

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07-20-2011, 02:03 PM
  #53
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We have DD, Eller and Engqvist who will be awarded the third and fourth spot. Unless we sign a veteran.

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07-20-2011, 02:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Interesting to note, however, that Halpern (paired with Cammalleri, in fairness) is listed on "regular" forward pairings that feature some of our worst GA/60 mins PK, and his 14 PP goals against seems pretty high for a guy in that role (although Moore was on the ice for 19 this year with the Lightning, so...) He did look pretty effective at times, though, I agree.



Actually, I think the evidence we have at this point suggests that it's far more likely that Gauthier wasn't willing to give anything longer than a 1 year deal on a player that he wasn't absolutely "sold" on. He didn't price himself out of Montreal at all. His salary last year was actually lower than it was in 2009-10, and his current cap hit is exactly the same as it was then. PG obviously thought he could find as good for cheaper, and he almost did. Almost. Problem is that Moore is still good, and now we're already looking for a replacement for his replacement and we have tonnes of cash. I think PG would absolutely (and kinda obviously) prefer that the 4th centre solution came internally (in the form of Engqvist, or whoever), as the whole situation would seem more by design than "luck" that someone was ready to jump into the roster full time to fill the role. If he has to go external again, it's going to look like he's sewing a patchwork quilt for a bottom 6 (which should be the easiest roles to develop internally, you'd think, given that most players never live up to their ultimate potential but are often still serviceable players at worst).
If you sign Moore for 2 years that means you have no faith in Eller. I think Eller needs 15+ minutes to keep developing, and I think this year he will be a better overall player than Moore. You don't pay a guy 1+ mil to be 4th line center...not when you are up against the cap(summer of 2010), maybe PG would do it this summer.

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07-20-2011, 05:03 PM
  #55
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I think Wilsie will also get a look - veteran, extremely hard working, substantial NHL experience.

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07-20-2011, 07:33 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you sign Moore for 2 years that means you have no faith in Eller. I think Eller needs 15+ minutes to keep developing, and I think this year he will be a better overall player than Moore. You don't pay a guy 1+ mil to be 4th line center...not when you are up against the cap(summer of 2010), maybe PG would do it this summer.
Is that what it meant when they signed Halpern? Note that Halpern and Eller were both in the lineup at the same time, and Moore would have been in Halpern's role (which was substantial... too substantial, perhaps), not Eller's. The extra year means nothing, except that if Eller DOES come into his own next season, you still have Moore on a decently cheap contract and can easily trade him if/when that happens (or keep him on the 4th line, when it comes down to it). Since we're obviously "in the market"/hoping for a rookie to step up next season, that seems like slightly poor planning on PG's part. $500K could have been found without difficulty, as has been mentioned, expanded on, and concluded many times between then and now.

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07-20-2011, 07:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Harry Kakalovitch View Post
I think Wilsie will also get a look - veteran, extremely hard working, substantial NHL experience.
Point per game player last season

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07-20-2011, 07:59 PM
  #58
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If Engqvist can improve his faceoff ability I'd give him a fair shot. A bottom 6 of

Desharnais-Eller-Kostitsyn
Moen-Engqvist-White

would be beast. Engqvist is 6'4, 200 pounds, has some nice hands and is defensively responsible, and a RH shot, exactly what we need.

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07-20-2011, 08:22 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subnordi View Post
If Engqvist can improve his faceoff ability I'd give him a fair shot. A bottom 6 of

Desharnais-Eller-Kostitsyn
Moen-Engqvist-White

would be beast. Engqvist is 6'4, 200 pounds, has some nice hands and is defensively responsible, and a RH shot, exactly what we need.
Wow, folks just anoint Engqvist with a regular NHL spot over Mathieu Darche before Engqvist has even shown he can score points in the AHL, or even keep up to the play in that league, never mind the best league in the world.

It's like people are blinded by his SIZE.

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07-20-2011, 09:44 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Wow, folks just anoint Engqvist with a regular NHL spot over Mathieu Darche before Engqvist has even shown he can score points in the AHL, or even keep up to the play in that league, never mind the best league in the world.

It's like people are blinded by his SIZE.
Engqvist brings a lot more than just size. I saw him at the WC playing for Sweden against quality oposition and he was very solid, very smart and always in great position, always made good decisions with the puck and showed some decent offensive skills. And he was pretty good in the two games he played for the Habs replacing Halpern. In my opinion, he is better than some of the bottom six forwards we had last year, including Pyat, White and, yes, Darche.
Keep up to the play in the AHL? Maybe you should watch some games first and then make these kind of statements. He was regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the AHL, and in the playoffs, he ended up tied for the best +/- rating in the league! Yeah, he must've really had trouble keeping up with the play! As for points, he was the shutdown center, often playing with the likes of Conboy and Wyman, and points were secondary in his case - he was groomed exactly for that defensive role.

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07-20-2011, 10:01 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Locks View Post
Engqvist brings a lot more than just size. I saw him at the WC playing for Sweden against quality oposition and he was very solid, very smart and always in great position, always made good decisions with the puck and showed some decent offensive skills. And he was pretty good in the two games he played for the Habs replacing Halpern. In my opinion, he is better than some of the bottom six forwards we had last year, including Pyat, White and, yes, Darche.
Keep up to the play in the AHL? Maybe you should watch some games first and then make these kind of statements. He was regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the AHL, and in the playoffs, he ended up tied for the best +/- rating in the league! Yeah, he must've really had trouble keeping up with the play! As for points, he was the shutdown center, often playing with the likes of Conboy and Wyman, and points were secondary in his case - he was groomed exactly for that defensive role.
I'm a Habs fan. I hope you're right. But I doubt it. I saw a very slow player who while tall weighs no more than Gomez and who was NO WAY as good as Pyatt or Halpern. Of course he could be as good as White, because White is no good except for being willing to fight, which happily for Ryan is a perceived need on this team!

Pyatt had the ability to shut down NHL stars and still was run out of town for being unable to score many points. Engqvist will probably score no more than Pyatt and is way, way slower and less able to neutralize NHL offensive stars. And he costs lots more than Pyatt! I still believe that if PG let Pyatt and Halpern go it was to allow himself the opportunity to really upgrade. Engqvist is on an ELC with waiver exempt status and there was no need to let Pyatt walk if the idea was to just put him in competition with Engqvist. All they had to do was put Pyatt back on a 2-way status which he would have probably accepted.


Last edited by BaseballCoach: 07-20-2011 at 10:29 PM.
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07-20-2011, 10:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Wow, folks just anoint Engqvist with a regular NHL spot over Mathieu Darche before Engqvist has even shown he can score points in the AHL, or even keep up to the play in that league, never mind the best league in the world.

It's like people are blinded by his SIZE.
Dude... they're not competing for the same spot. Pyatt, Darche, Moen, etc were all competing for bottom 6 winger positions, Engqvist is being groomed for bottom 6 centre duties. Dropping Halpern gives Engqvist an opportunity, not Pyatt. I'm surprised you're not following this by now.

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07-20-2011, 10:42 PM
  #63
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If you missed Darche's interview at l'Antichambre last May 21st fully subbed in English you can watch it here:

Part 1

Part 2

I know that he filled more or so Metropolit/ Kostopoulos / Samsonov / Bégin seats but he's actually a big improvement compared to these players and he brings a lot more to the table. Energy, he's gritty and he positions himself where it counts.

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07-20-2011, 10:45 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Dude... they're not competing for the same spot. Pyatt, Darche, Moen, etc were all competing for bottom 6 winger positions, Engqvist is being groomed for bottom 6 centre duties. Dropping Halpern gives Engqvist an opportunity, not Pyatt. I'm surprised you're not following this by now.
Pyatt could have been a centre option, too. More importantly, DD is already a centre option, but to move him to wing means probably dropping a winger who is much better than Engqvist. The whole thing is mind-boggling.

Surely PG is patiently looking for some better players to spend his last $4M-$5M on.

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07-21-2011, 12:35 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Pyatt could have been a centre option, too. More importantly, DD is already a centre option, but to move him to wing means probably dropping a winger who is much better than Engqvist. The whole thing is mind-boggling.

Surely PG is patiently looking for some better players to spend his last $4M-$5M on.
Obviously not a better one. How many people have played centre in our bottom 6 since Pyatt has joined the team, and how many games has Martin put Pyatt at centre? Exactly. And while I remember the couple of games that gave me hope for DD as well, fact is that he's just not cut out for the centre position in the NHL. He'll do much better on the wing, whether he sticks with the team "long" term or not. If he had more Briere in him, it might be different. But he doesn't, so it isn't.

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07-21-2011, 12:43 AM
  #66
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Gomez could fill that #4 slot

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07-21-2011, 02:48 AM
  #67
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Plekanec will play 20 minutes, Gomez will play 18-19 minutes, Eller/Desharnais will play 13-15 minutes.

I dont see huge difference who (White, Engqvist, Blunden or whoever) plays the remaining 6-8 minutes and takes propably takes maybe 150 draws over the season.

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07-21-2011, 08:16 AM
  #68
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The answer is no. There's enough veteran presence on the wings to have 2 young centers pivot the 3rd & 4th lines.

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07-21-2011, 08:25 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Marksman View Post
Plekanec will play 20 minutes, Gomez will play 18-19 minutes, Eller/Desharnais will play 13-15 minutes.

I dont see huge difference who (White, Engqvist, Blunden or whoever) plays the remaining 6-8 minutes and takes propably takes maybe 150 draws over the season.
If you have a weak #4 guy, it puts more pressure on Plekanec to take the tough defensive and PK assignments. Ideally a guy like Madden or Drury that can win draws and contribute on PK would be nice.

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07-21-2011, 09:01 AM
  #70
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If you have a weak #4 guy, it puts more pressure on Plekanec to take the tough defensive and PK assignments. Ideally a guy like Madden or Drury that can win draws and contribute on PK would be nice.
Well, personally I want my highest paid players play as much as possible.

Desharnais already played in the role and theres Engqvist who took some minutes there too, so we have spares.

Picking up veteran like that would make more sense around March trade deadline time.

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07-21-2011, 09:08 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you have a weak #4 guy, it puts more pressure on Plekanec to take the tough defensive and PK assignments. Ideally a guy like Madden or Drury that can win draws and contribute on PK would be nice.
At some point you need to give your young guys some responsibility if you want them to develop, though.

I guess you have to weigh the benefits of that against the benefits of having experience in your bottom 6. To me, having a guy like Halpern or Belanger would have been worth it, but when you get into guys like Madden and Drury, who to me are all but washed up, that's when I would say just develop a guy like White in the 4th line center role.

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