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07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
  #76
Holdurbreathe
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Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
I just love the whole ''sole source'' argument coming along every time this thing is brought up.......NO ONE ELSE SUBMITTED A BID.


..either way this thing is going to cost tax payers a lot already(I'm ok with that, as long as were not in the same position we are in now 4 years later), why waste more time and money debating this to the bitter end.....
Shanny I really don't want to give you a hard time, as I do believe you feel it is in Ottawa's best interest to move forward with the Lansdowne Live project.

However, the lack of a bidding process is one of the points the FoL is making.

"The Friends of Lansdowne allege the city erred when city manager Kent Kirkpatrick cancelled a council-approved design competition for the property at Bank Street and the Rideau Canal in the Glebe, granted bonuses or subsidies to OSEG, and failed to act in good faith. The group says the financial agreement is stacked in favour of OSEG and the city acted more in the private than the public interest."

Justice Hackland will rule on whether the actions by city bureaucrats or potental violations of the law should result in cancellation of the Lansdowne Live proposal. Personally I have serious doubts that Hackland would make such an extreme ruling.

However, Hackland might issue an order to stop any work on the project until council resolves one outstanding issue: what exactly is the city’s funding equity in the project? When council approved the LPP, they were under the mistaken belief that the city's funding equity was $76 million, when it is actually $13 million.


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07-21-2011, 11:48 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Shanny I really don't want to give you a hard time, as I do believe you feel it is in Ottawa's best interest to move forward with the Lansdowne Live project.

However, the lack of a bidding process is one of the points the FoL is making.

"The Friends of Lansdowne allege the city erred when city manager Kent Kirkpatrick cancelled a council-approved design competition for the property at Bank Street and the Rideau Canal in the Glebe, granted bonuses or subsidies to OSEG, and failed to act in good faith. The group says the financial agreement is stacked in favour of OSEG and the city acted more in the private than the public interest."

Justice Hackland will rule on whether the actions by city beaurcrats or potental violations of the law should result in cancellation the Lansdowne Live proposal. Personally I have serious doubts that Hackland would make such an extreme ruling.

However, Hackland might issue an order to stop any work on the project until council resolves one outstanding issue: what exactly is the city’s funding equity in the project? When council approved the LPP, they were under the mistaken belief that the city's funding equity was $76 million, when it is actually $13 million.
Ok lets say there is a open bid and oseg wins yet there is still court cases then what?


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07-21-2011, 11:51 AM
  #78
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This situation is a perfect example of why Ottawa can not be considered a world class city, let alone a proper capital.

Rampant NIMBYism, provincial attitudes regarding development of the city, and lack of focus and direction by the city council means that this city will at best stagnate at status quo.

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07-21-2011, 12:10 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Ok lets say there is a open bid and oseg still is the best yet there i bet will still be court cases etc.
The problem is that an open bidding system was cancelled and this became the basis for the FoL to launch their legal action.

There is always the potential for a group of stakeholders to push back against government's plans and decisions. This goes on regualrly with citizen groups, lobbyists, and corporations attempting to gain more favourable rulings from government at all levels.

However it usually only ends up in the courts when actual procedural or legal violations exist, therefore why it is so requisite for government agencies to have transparency.

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07-21-2011, 12:13 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
The problem is that an open bidding system was cancelled and this became the basis for the FoL to launch their legal action.

There is always the potential for a group of stakeholders to push back against government's plans and decisions. This goes on regualrly with citizen groups, lobbyists, and corporations attempting to gain more favourable rulings from government at all levels.

However it usually only ends up in the courts when actual procedural or legal violations exist, therefore why it is so requisite for government agencies to have transparency.
You didn't answer his question

If OSEG won fairly would there still be a problem?

Which is my question if everything gets sorted out and the developement stay the same plan is FoL going to fight plainly just the idea of what landsdown is going to be?

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07-21-2011, 12:15 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
No the cost of professions sports is not minute even look at the bell cup which is not pro but still it bring in each year $15 million each year into the local economy.As for the cost of a park just look at hyde park when it was built it did cost around $500 million and there are some that want that type of park in ottawa.
1. Studies have been done before which shows that adding professional sports teams does not significantly impact a local economy. Other factors have a much more significant impact.

2. I asked for sources which showed that turning Lansdowne into a park would cost more to the city than to build a stadium, not Hyde Park. The Lansdowne Park Conservacy group says a park (and new retail spaces) would cost $110 million compared to the $129 million the city is currently on the hook for with the OSEG

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However, Hackland might issue an order to stop any work on the project until council resolves one outstanding issue: what exactly is the city’s funding equity in the project? When council approved the LPP, they were under the mistaken belief that the city's funding equity was $76 million, when it is actually $13 million.
This is such an important point. The city has known about this for awhile, and the only reason we know about it is because it came out during the court case.

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07-21-2011, 12:20 PM
  #82
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Despite the argument that a process was not followed in terms of competition for redevelopment, the FOL are not fooling me (or most, I should say) when it comes to what is really being attacked here. If the city sole sourced the redevelopment to a group who was bringing a more favourable design and plan to the Park (one that essentially turns Lansdowne into a space that doesn't bring high volumes of people into their lefty little neighbourhood), the issue of sole sourcing the redevelopment wouldn't be an issue.

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07-21-2011, 12:20 PM
  #83
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1. Studies have been done before which shows that adding professional sports teams does not significantly impact a local economy. Other factors have a much more significant impact.

2. I asked for sources which showed that turning Lansdowne into a park would cost more to the city than to build a stadium, not Hyde Park. The Lansdowne Park Conservacy group says a park (and new retail spaces) would cost $110 million compared to the $129 million the city is currently on the hook for with the OSEG



This is such an important point. The city has known about this for awhile, and the only reason we know about it is because it came out during the court case.
Conservacy
I am not talking about the conservacy group as odd as it sounds i support there plan i think they do infact have a real soolid plan and it could work.

Hyde Park
Some private citizens have said they want a hyde park and when that park was built it did cost $500 million.

Pro Sports
Just think it this way with out the senators there would have been no world juniors no womens championship etc which bring in tons of money.

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07-21-2011, 12:30 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by hawthy View Post
Despite the argument that a process was not followed in terms of competition for redevelopment, the FOL are not fooling me (or most, I should say) when it comes to what is really being attacked here. If the city sole sourced the redevelopment to a group who was bringing a more favourable design and plan to the Park (one that essentially turns Lansdowne into a space that doesn't bring high volumes of people into their lefty little neighbourhood), the issue of sole sourcing the redevelopment wouldn't be an issue.
You're absolutely correct that the FOL group probably wouldn't be complaining about the sole sourcing process in that situation. That being said, had that happened, you probably would have had another group that's complaining about it. Transparency is key when it comes to governments spending our money, which is why procedures are in place to ensure politicians aren't giving our money to their friends such that when they get kicked out of office they have a cushy job waiting for them. If there had been transparency, a 60 million dollar mistake like the one OSEG made would have likely been caught before hand, and we wouldn't have had to wait for a court case to find out about it when the city knew a month beforehand that such a mistake had been made.

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Conservacy
I am not talking about the conservacy group as odd as it sounds i support there plan i think they do infact have a real soolid plan and it could work.
The conservacy group was just an example to show that a park will not necessarily cost more than a stadium.

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Hyde Park
Some private citizens have said they want a hyde park and when that park was built it did cost $500 million.
Just because they want a hyde park, doesn't mean it's going to be exactly like hyde park (is it the London or the Chicago one?). Ottawa is a significantly smaller city. Again, provide a source for one of these "ideas" that would build a park in Ottawa that would cost more than building the stadium

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Pro Sports
They do have a impact just think it this way with out the senators there would have been no world juniors no womens championship etc which bring in tons of money.
Again, those studies have taken these things into account. These events are great, and if they are going to bring in so much money, why does the government have to get involved to pay the capital cost of a stadium? If great money is to be made, why aren't private investors jumping at the opportunity to build these things using 100% of their own money?

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07-21-2011, 12:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by hawthy View Post
Despite the argument that a process was not followed in terms of competition for redevelopment, the FOL are not fooling me (or most, I should say) when it comes to what is really being attacked here. If the city sole sourced the redevelopment to a group who was bringing a more favourable design and plan to the Park (one that essentially turns Lansdowne into a space that doesn't bring high volumes of people into their lefty little neighbourhood), the issue of sole sourcing the redevelopment wouldn't be an issue.
I agree with you, but they way this was handled by the city's bureaucrats only made matters worse.

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07-21-2011, 12:33 PM
  #86
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I know from several previous 'age' threads that a large portion of the posters here are fairly young, and in effect pay ZERO in property taxes to this city, so I find it funny when I see all these people comment about taxes going up knowing full well they probably don't pay any.

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07-21-2011, 12:40 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
However, Hackland might issue an order to stop any work on the project until council resolves one outstanding issue: what exactly is the city’s funding equity in the project? When council approved the LPP, they were under the mistaken belief that the city's funding equity was $76 million, when it is actually $13 million.
I was onboard for the project until this came to light: I couldn't believe how far off the city was in terms of numbers.

The whole thing stinks to the high heavens once you realize that the city has rushed into it without making sure on all the details. Bushleague does not inspire confidence.

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07-21-2011, 12:44 PM
  #88
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3. The developer will not be putting 1$ into the stadium. While nobody is against the stadium and sport franchise, they have to be accountable to paying a part of the stadium. Stadiums are money black holes and it is completely crazy that the city is going to be paying all of it.
Won't the city be collecting rent from use of the site and facilities because they will continue to own them? Aren't the CFL team, the NASL soccer franchise awarded to Ottawa, the 67s, and all other tennants, full-time or part-time (eg- Women's World Cup in 2015) going to be paying rent?

I don't have a problem with cities, including my own, putting money into sports facilities, what I am against is putting money into facilities that are then owned by private individuals or corporations who then reap the benefits; I didn't think that was the case with Landsdowne Park.

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07-21-2011, 12:46 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Its not that people are aginst fol its that this has been going on for so long some just want something to be done.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Ottawa has always been marred by a systematically dysfunctional town planning bureaucracy. Between the NCC and bad city counselors there have been a lot of bad decisions made (the NCC buying out all the establishments on Sparks St. to try and clean it up and killing all the life on it, the NCC making Lebreton Flats a tabula rasa, NCC not allowing sports arena on Lebreton Flats, a lagging and unorganized agenda for LTR and etc). If there is something positive to be seen however in the light of the events unfolding around Lansdowne is the organization of FOL as a group of citizens that are able to hold the city accountable and advocate for good and intelligent city design and planning.

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07-21-2011, 12:47 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
You're absolutely correct that the FOL group probably wouldn't be complaining about the sole sourcing process in that situation. That being said, had that happened, you probably would have had another group that's complaining about it. Transparency is key when it comes to governments spending our money, which is why procedures are in place to ensure politicians aren't giving our money to their friends such that when they get kicked out of office they have a cushy job waiting for them. If there had been transparency, a 60 million dollar mistake like the one OSEG made would have likely been caught before hand, and we wouldn't have had to wait for a court case to find out about it when the city knew a month beforehand that such a mistake had been made.



The conservacy group was just an example to show that a park will not necessarily cost more than a stadium.



Just because they want a hyde park, doesn't mean it's going to be exactly like hyde park (is it the London or the Chicago one?). Ottawa is a significantly smaller city. Again, provide a source for one of these "ideas" that would build a park in Ottawa that would cost more than building the stadium



Again, those studies have taken these things into account. These events are great, and if they are going to bring in so much money, why does the government have to get involved to pay the capital cost of a stadium? If great money is to be made, why aren't private investors jumping at the opportunity to build these things using 100% of their own money?
Park
Again as i said the cost of building hyde park was around $500 million just say they were to build one half the size so what maybe your looking at around $250 million.

Sports
What is important to keep in mind when i say and others about money they bring in thats not money going to the team per say but money people spending on hotels/bars etc.


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07-21-2011, 12:51 PM
  #91
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Two wrongs don't make a right. Ottawa has always been marred by a systematically dysfunctional town planning bureaucracy. Between the NCC and bad city counselors there have been a lot of bad decisions made (the NCC buying out all the establishments on Sparks St. to try and clean it up and killing all the life on it, the NCC making Lebreton Flats a tabula rasa, NCC not allowing sports arena on Lebreton Flats, a lagging and unorganized agenda for LTR and etc). If there is something positive to be seen however in the light of the events unfolding around Lansdowne is the organization of FOL as a group of citizens that are able to hold the city accountable and advocate for good and intelligent city design and planning.
Is it good what if they win and nothing gets done for another 25 years the 67s move we lose ice time for local teams we lose a concert venue is that really a good thing no thats not.I am not saying landsdown live is perfect its not far from it but can the city afford to reject it and just let landsdown rot for years to come i really don't think they can.


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07-21-2011, 12:51 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by hawthy View Post
Despite the argument that a process was not followed in terms of competition for redevelopment, the FOL are not fooling me (or most, I should say) when it comes to what is really being attacked here. If the city sole sourced the redevelopment to a group who was bringing a more favourable design and plan to the Park (one that essentially turns Lansdowne into a space that doesn't bring high volumes of people into their lefty little neighbourhood), the issue of sole sourcing the redevelopment wouldn't be an issue.
Agreed

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07-21-2011, 01:19 PM
  #93
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Agreed
Agreeing on speculation doesn't really do much.

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07-21-2011, 01:29 PM
  #94
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You didn't answer his question

If OSEG won fairly would there still be a problem?

Which is my question if everything gets sorted out and the developement stay the same plan is FoL going to fight plainly just the idea of what landsdown is going to be?
How can I provide an meaningful answer to a hypothetical question???

I could speculate that FoL would fight regardless of how the process was handled. Could also make a compelling argument that if the bidding process had been airtight, FoL wouldn't waste their money on a pointless court battle.

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07-21-2011, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
How can I provide an meaningful answer to a hypothetical question???

I could speculate that FoL would fight regardless of how the process was handled. Could also make a compelling argument that if the bidding process had been airtight, FoL wouldn't waste their money on a pointless court battle.
But my question was if they win but the design doesn't change are they going to fight it?

It's not hypothetical in my question. It's a possibility. Actually a huge possibility nothing will change


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07-21-2011, 03:19 PM
  #96
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Agreeing on speculation doesn't really do much.
>.> neither does arguing about stuff on the internets

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07-21-2011, 05:13 PM
  #97
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But my question was if they win but the design doesn't change are they going to fight it?

It's not hypothetical in my question. It's a possibility.
I suppose anything is a possibility, but I have no idea what the city or the FoL will do regardless of who wins this case.

However, should the justice shock me and rule in favour of the FoL, there is nothing to stop the city from asking for bidders on the same design. The design itself really wasn't the cornerstone of the FoL challenge, it was the process use to establish OSEG as the developer and potential violations of the procurement by-law.

The FoL could issue another court challenge if the city restarted the bid process I suppose. However if the city met all its obligations in law and process, I would expect the court would just dismiss the challenge.

I don't believe the FoL is expecting to win a judgement, what they are attempting to do is delay the project hoping that OSEG pulls out due to cost uncertainty.

This project involves hundreds of millions of dollars, most of it probably secured with debt at current interest rates. As well OSEG has made commitments to the CFL, both in terms of dollars and schedule starting with the 2013 season.

Delays in the stadium reconstruction could bring significant additional costs, making the project less viable.

IMO this is what the FoL are attempting to achieve.

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07-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #98
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Park
Again as i said the cost of building hyde park was around $500 million just say they were to build one half the size so what maybe your looking at around $250 million.
But that is pure speculation from your part, while you misrepresented the park alternatives as being more costly than the proposed stadium. So far you haven't shown any source to indicate that any of the ideas that were being presented during the public consultation phase the city had prior to entering into exclusive negotiations with the OSEG would cost more than the city has currently committed into building a stadium.

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Sports
What is important to keep in mind when i say and others about money they bring in thats not money going to the team per say but going to the local economy such as hotels/bars etc.
Read what I said previously. Studies have been done on sports franchises and the "trickle down" effects (or lack thereof) to the economy. On a short term basis, people's incomes remain relatively fixed, and the local economy doesn't grow significantly, which means when a sports team arrives in town, people don't magically have more money to spend on going to the games and going to the bars/restaurants around the stadium, they simply shift whatever disposable income they had around from another type of leisure activity to ones related to the sports team and surrounding businesses of the area.

The only time this doesn't hold true is if you have people coming from out of town to attend the games which infuses money into the local economy, or if people choose to re-allocate money they would have spent on something like a vacation outside Ottawa on the sports team thus keeping money in the local economy. So while it's true the city benefits greatly from big events like the World Juniors, those are far from guaranteed.

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07-21-2011, 05:24 PM
  #99
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This situation is a perfect example of why Ottawa can not be considered a world class city, let alone a proper capital.

Rampant NIMBYism, provincial attitudes regarding development of the city, and lack of focus and direction by the city council means that this city will at best stagnate at status quo.
World class cities use effective urban planning. This project does not. The proposal for a truly outstanding park along the Canal that gets so much flak around here would be much more in line with what you call a "world class" city than the overcongested development currently being planned. Take off the CFL-tinted glasses.

That said, I am all for intensification and building a new stadium. But Lansdowne is not the place to do it. We are investing $2.1b in new transit infrastructure and should be making the most of it. The stadium should go somewhere accessible. There are other more logical uses for the Lansdowne site.

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07-21-2011, 05:24 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
But my question was if they win but the design doesn't change are they going to fight it?

It's not hypothetical in my question. It's a possibility. Actually a huge possibility nothing will change
You don't seem to realize what the FoL group is taking the city to court over: it has nothing to do with the design...

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