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Old
07-20-2011, 09:34 PM
  #876
Lions999
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Yes i know there tough and i know that White can fight but when you have another guy in the backround that can drop them with anyone it helps alot.Patch said it that White is a great guy to have on the team but he also said it wouldn`t be a bad idea to have someone that can drop them against anyone.

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07-20-2011, 10:04 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
There's all kinds of examples of players playing in different eras and still maintaining their numbers. In fact it happens with almost all players, guys on a lesser scale like Mark Recchi were still successful in their 40's. The list is large. I used the examples I used because it says something when a 35 yr old out of action for 3 years, fatass comes out of retirement and puts up 76points in 43 games. It proves very little has changed.. lol

If the league was evolving at this alarming rate, even guys like Bourque and Lidstrom would show some sort of decline and even into their late 30's-40 they were still the very best in their position and Mike Gartner wouldn't be the fastest skater still.
Mark Recchi wasn't Wayne Gretzky, but he's no slouch. It's not because Mark Recchi did it that hey, almost anybody can. Before you go off on saying you never mentioned that and that I just invent things, I want you to know that when you say things like ''guys on a lesser scale like Mark Recchi'' it diminishes Recchi. At least that's the way I understand it.
Recchi will probably be inducted into the HoF one day. The man has played over 1600 (4th all time for Games actually), and has a pt/gp average over that span of .93.
Gretzky and Lemieux are in a league of their own when it came down to pure raw talent, these guys cannot be compared to anybody else imo, but Recchi was one heck of a hockey player. There's a reason why he was able to play well into his 40's.

I don't think saying that if guys like him were able to find success that old, then I guess the league isn't so different. Guys like him are HoFs. I don't know too many players that continued to have found some pretty good success at the age of 40 while not being future HoFs.
The league is getting younger by the year. We're getting at a point where we think 34-35 is old, where at 27 can be labeled as a veteran. The game is a lot quicker, there's a lot less fighting, the goalies are better than ever, the rules are different. Yes, there's a big minority of players that can still hold their own around 40, but like I said, that's a minority, and we're generally talking about elite talent players.
Dude, the league has changed.


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Old
07-21-2011, 05:40 AM
  #878
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Mark Recchi wasn't Wayne Gretzky, but he's no slouch. It's not because Mark Recchi did it that hey, almost anybody can. Before you go off on saying you never mentioned that and that I just invent things, I want you to know that when you say things like ''guys on a lesser scale like Mark Recchi'' it diminishes Recchi. At least that's the way I understand it.
Recchi will probably be inducted into the HoF one day. The man has played over 1600 (4th all time for Games actually), and has a pt/gp average over that span of .93.
Gretzky and Lemieux are in a league of their own when it came down to pure raw talent, these guys cannot be compared to anybody else imo, but Recchi was one heck of a hockey player. There's a reason why he was able to play well into his 40's.

I don't think saying that if guys like him were able to find success that old, then I guess the league isn't so different. Guys like him are HoFs. I don't know too many players that continued to have found some pretty good success at the age of 40 while not being future HoFs.
The league is getting younger by the year. We're getting at a point where we think 34-35 is old, where at 27 can be labeled as a veteran. The game is a lot quicker, there's a lot less fighting, the goalies are better than ever, the rules are different. Yes, there's a big minority of players that can still hold their own around 40, but like I said, that's a minority, and we're generally talking about elite talent players.
Dude, the league has changed.
Dude, not that much, my point was, if the elite guys of 20+ years ago are the elite guys of today still, not much has changed.

Equipment is the biggest change in goaltending.

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07-21-2011, 05:44 AM
  #879
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Very wrong. People keep repeating to you and trying to make you understand no one is against thoughness, not one single poster here will tell you they dont want 6 3 hard hitting player. If by thoughness you mean a guy who s gonna play 40 games at 5 min per game, then sure whatever. Its not like hes going to play more then 40 games and 5 min per game, and not like that player will play in the POs. You say whatver you want to say, even if, mods included, tryied to make you and some others understand no one is against thoughness. Most of the arguiing in this thread arouses from fact that some see fighters as important to the game and others see it as something fairly useless.
LMAO, sure thing, most aren't arguing about fighters/goons at all, you should try reading first. Noone needs to explain anything to me, so far I seen a bunch of strawman arguments about how fighters don't prevent injuries bla bla bla, you'll be in here saying great move too, no matter what moves happen.

Anyone can pretend to feel however they want, most feel this team is tough enough and most don't see it as important, that's' the sticking point. Try to follow the conversation before jumping in to tell me what everyone is trying to explain to me.

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07-21-2011, 06:15 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
LMAO, sure thing, most aren't arguing about fighters/goons at all, you should try reading first. Noone needs to explain anything to me, so far I seen a bunch of strawman arguments about how fighters don't prevent injuries bla bla bla, you'll be in here saying great move too, no matter what moves happen.

Anyone can pretend to feel however they want, most feel this team is tough enough and most don't see it as important, that's' the sticking point. Try to follow the conversation before jumping in to tell me what everyone is trying to explain to me.
Sorry, but if the above is what you think, reading comprehension isnt your thing then...

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07-21-2011, 06:30 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Dude, not that much, my point was, if the elite guys of 20+ years ago are the elite guys of today still, not much has changed.

Equipment is the biggest change in goaltending.
that's why they're elite, they're better than everyone else, better enough to adapt to changes...

even moreso when the changes are made to their advantage (like trying to make the game faster for example)...


I mean, guys like P. Bure and M. Gartner were the faster skaters of their generation, you really think they would have a problem with the "red line being gone" ? think about it for a sec... speed was their bread and butter, they would for sure try to use the new rules and equipment to be even faster...

but what about the Turner Stevenson or Ulf Samuelsson of this world... or the other 3rd and 4th liners ? I mean, they were slow compared to their teammates/opponents... and now the game has gone faster...



Could Gretzky find a way to use the corners (where goalies are disallowed now) to his advantage to get even more points ? sure... but Stevenson ? or Houle ? or Lambert ? dont bet your house on that...

why ? cause 99 is ELITE... the others (who are the majority by the way) arent...

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07-21-2011, 06:57 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Yeah, our "tough" guys need tough guys to protect them...

makes sense
BTW, those are the type of players that need protectors the most. Being annoying pests is part of Subban and White's game, but they can't do that effectively when the fighters from other teams are chasing them everywhere on the ice. Team toughness aint worth crap if ou don't have a player that's good at keeping players play an honest game, thus why Boston still has Thornton even when hey have all of those tough players.

Your sarcasm smilie isn't worth much when it concerns something you don't understand.

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07-21-2011, 07:12 AM
  #883
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BTW, those are the type of players that need protectors the most. Being annoying pests is part of Subban and White's game, but they can't do that effectively when the fighters from other teams are chasing them everywhere on the ice. Team toughness aint worth crap if ou don't have a player that's good at keeping players play an honest game, thus why Boston still has Thornton even when hey have all of those tough players.

Your sarcasm smilie isn't worth much when it concerns something you don't understand.
Actually, being a pest is NOT part of White's game...



exactly, what would White do without any help...













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07-21-2011, 07:44 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Actually, being a pest is NOT part of White's game...



exactly, what would White do without any help...
This just proves that White can't fight very well. I like White and glad he'll be on the 4th line this year but if you are looking towards him to be take on all challenges this season, it won't be pretty. He couldn't even beat Brian Lee, who may be the softest player in the league.

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07-21-2011, 07:54 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Actually, being a pest is NOT part of White's game...



exactly, what would White do without any help
Who said that being a pest ment you never dropped em? Not to mention, do you see who he's fighting in those videos? That's exactly why someday teams will send out the big guns against him. I did say he would have a more EFFECTIVE game, no?

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07-21-2011, 08:01 AM
  #886
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Who said that being a pest ment you never dropped em? Not to mention, do you see who he's fighting in those videos? That's exactly why someday teams will send out the big guns against him. I did say he would have a more EFFECTIVE game, no?
care to tell me what kind of "pest like" stuff he's doing ??


the guys is 6'0 and +/- 200, should he fight Chara or something... seriously... get a clue man...

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07-21-2011, 08:02 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by habs24 View Post
This just proves that White can't fight very well. I like White and glad he'll be on the 4th line this year but if you are looking towards him to be take on all challenges this season, it won't be pretty. He couldn't even beat Brian Lee, who may be the softest player in the league.
I agree - not too impressed with that sequence. Emelin's going to throw some big hits. Subban's going to run at the mouth. Markov will be wearing a target. Hal Gill will offer bear hugs. And other Habs will get a beat down like last year in Boston.

Ryan White won't be able to handle that load.

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07-21-2011, 08:05 AM
  #888
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This just proves that White can't fight very well. I like White and glad he'll be on the 4th line this year but if you are looking towards him to be take on all challenges this season, it won't be pretty. He couldn't even beat Brian Lee, who may be the softest player in the league.
sure, judge the guy on one bad fight... why dont you do the same but with the Boychuk fight ?

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07-21-2011, 08:19 AM
  #889
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I agree - not too impressed with that sequence. Emelin's going to throw some big hits. Subban's going to run at the mouth. Markov will be wearing a target. Hal Gill will offer bear hugs. And other Habs will get a beat down like last year in Boston.

Ryan White won't be able to handle that load.
Sure, because guys like Pyatt, Spacek and Hammer get beatdown every year..

What happened last year isn't a recurring thing, and the Bruins would still have done it if we had Boulton or Winchester or whoever else. You think they would back down if we had one of these guys? Why would they?
People just want a player so they can *feel* more secure. So they can see a Habs player beat up some opponents (for a change). But really, it would not change a thing to the game itself. The outcome would remain the same.

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07-21-2011, 08:35 AM
  #890
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BTW, those are the type of players that need protectors the most. Being annoying pests is part of Subban and White's game, but they can't do that effectively when the fighters from other teams are chasing them everywhere on the ice. Team toughness aint worth crap if ou don't have a player that's good at keeping players play an honest game, thus why Boston still has Thornton even when hey have all of those tough players.

Your sarcasm smilie isn't worth much when it concerns something you don't understand.
Well said. With a true heavy weight, Travis Moen becomes more effective like he was before. Now he has to square off against other teams heavyweights and he shouldn't have to.

If you watch the PK video, he is the first over to the box to say good job to white too, for stepping up.

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07-21-2011, 08:38 AM
  #891
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Gainey signed Moen to replace Laraque. He gave him an identical contract too.

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07-21-2011, 08:45 AM
  #892
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Gainey signed Moen to replace Laraque. He gave him an identical contract too.
Wouldn't surprise me with Gainey, but Moen should not be answering to other teams heavy weights. Moen is out of his element here and has been.

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07-21-2011, 09:05 AM
  #893
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Sure, because guys like Pyatt, Spacek and Hammer get beatdown every year..

What happened last year isn't a recurring thing, and the Bruins would still have done it if we had Boulton or Winchester or whoever else. You think they would back down if we had one of these guys? Why would they?
People just want a player so they can *feel* more secure. So they can see a Habs player beat up some opponents (for a change). But really, it would not change a thing to the game itself. The outcome would remain the same.
I agree that it hasn't been a recurring thing. But a couple of years ago there were a few guys (Bouillon, Begin, Souray) who at least didn't mind dropping the gloves and taking their lumps or giving a few. It wasn't that long go. And because of it some other guys played more aggressive hockey.

I just kinda a feel this team is in a quandary when it comes to skilled, nasty players who will drop the gloves too. And I feel this team has a lot to answer to with Subban running at the mouth. How soon will Emelin quit throwing big hits once he realizes he could get pummeled? And who's gonna be the guy to after the guy who targets Markov? Everyone knows about his injuries and my guess is he's going to be tested.

There is nobody on this team that scares anyone IMO. We'll see what happens and I hope your are right.

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07-21-2011, 09:28 AM
  #894
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
that's why they're elite, they're better than everyone else, better enough to adapt to changes...

even moreso when the changes are made to their advantage (like trying to make the game faster for example)...


I mean, guys like P. Bure and M. Gartner were the faster skaters of their generation, you really think they would have a problem with the "red line being gone" ? think about it for a sec... speed was their bread and butter, they would for sure try to use the new rules and equipment to be even faster...

but what about the Turner Stevenson or Ulf Samuelsson of this world... or the other 3rd and 4th liners ? I mean, they were slow compared to their teammates/opponents... and now the game has gone faster...



Could Gretzky find a way to use the corners (where goalies are disallowed now) to his advantage to get even more points ? sure... but Stevenson ? or Houle ? or Lambert ? dont bet your house on that...

why ? cause 99 is ELITE... the others (who are the majority by the way) arent...
I'm not sure your point. Stevenson, for your information was never any good. Are you trying to tell me only elite players have 20 year long careers or careers that cross more than 1 era? There have been hundreds of players to play in 2 decades and different eras per se, guess what, they nearly all adjusted. The elite dman today aren't as good as a 40 yr old Lidstrom. That should tell you something not only about Lidstrom, but about the opposition he is facing. THe skill level isn't changing at all. Lidstrom is an example on the extreme, but all good players adjust, not just elite. The league is different, I never disputed that, but it's not like it's evolved to some point where toughness and grit are no longer valued, or fighting for that matter. There are still a boat load of fights every year.

The basics are the same, the fundamentals will never change and hockey is still hockey.

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07-21-2011, 09:35 AM
  #895
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Sorry, but if the above is what you think, reading comprehension isnt your thing then...
Actually you might wanna go brush up on your own reading skills.

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07-21-2011, 09:59 AM
  #896
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Heard Paul McLean on Ottawa radio this morning who said that "intimidation" is still part of the modern game.

I guess he's wrong and everyone here is right...

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07-21-2011, 01:47 PM
  #897
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This thread has been borderline personal for awhile, but it really shouldn't derail into a who's played more hockey in their life topic. Please keep it on topic moving forward.

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07-21-2011, 02:56 PM
  #898
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Wouldn't surprise me with Gainey, but Moen should not be answering to other teams heavy weights. Moen is out of his element here and has been.
Plus - HE'S ALONE!!! People around here have no idea how tough this job is. Moen would love to see a guy like Konopka or Neil on this team.

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07-21-2011, 03:00 PM
  #899
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Plus - HE'S ALONE!!! People around here have no idea how tough this job is. Moen would love to see a guy like Konopka or Neil on this team.
This. Plus he plays for Martin, who hates the rough stuff. Could disturb the gel in his hair. It's gel, right?

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07-21-2011, 03:07 PM
  #900
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I agree that it hasn't been a recurring thing. But a couple of years ago there were a few guys (Bouillon, Begin, Souray) who at least didn't mind dropping the gloves and taking their lumps or giving a few. It wasn't that long go. And because of it some other guys played more aggressive hockey.

I just kinda a feel this team is in a quandary when it comes to skilled, nasty players who will drop the gloves too. And I feel this team has a lot to answer to with Subban running at the mouth. How soon will Emelin quit throwing big hits once he realizes he could get pummeled? And who's gonna be the guy to after the guy who targets Markov? Everyone knows about his injuries and my guess is he's going to be tested.

There is nobody on this team that scares anyone IMO
. We'll see what happens and I hope your are right.
Ya, I'm pretty sure Lucic isn't scared to go in the corners to battle with Gionta.
But that's not what I, or anybody else for that matter, should care about. I care about our team, as a whole, not how strong individual players are or how well they can fight. We have a guy that will drop the gloves. I don't care if he loses his fights like Kosto did, it sends a message that we are united and we will stick up for each other. That's all I care about. Sure would be great to have some big guys that can fight so we can pound some Bruins in, but that's being emotional, not rational. You're putting focus on physical beating some opponent. I really don't care about this.
When push comes to shove, we can take care of ourselves. I don't mind if Gill bear hugs everybody, I don't care if we lose every single fight we get into, I care about winning.
You mention that we had players like Komi, Bouillon, Begin, Kosto, etc.. before which made things easier for us. But didn't Komi get jumped from behind by Lucic in 08-09? Remember that game?? Again, the Bruins gooned it up. It wasn't as bad as beating a Pyatt with an elbow pad of Thornton fighting Hammer, but still they gooned it up. They ended up losing that game which made us clinch for the POs. We were battered with injuries and got swept in the POs, but still, it just goes to show, what matters is winning.
Last year, during that ridiculous game, people forget it was 8-6. It was 6-5 before they scored midway in the 3rd after a penalty call on DD. They decided to goon it up at the end.
The following game, we win 4-1. Chara took MaxPac's head off, but like I said, everybody here agrees those cheap shots are not preventable.
So tell me, we certainly didn't back down after getting bullied. We bounced back by winning 4-1, that's all I'll put my focus on.
Trying to justify the importance of a protector is ridiculous. It has very little barring on the game, a minimal impact at best. It's just fans that are simply sick of seeing the Habs lose physical fights that try to argue the importance of it.

Could we benefit from having a big tough guy?? Sure. I'm sure plenty of people, if not everybody, would welcome this addition.
Could his impact be as big as to influence the outcome of our season, or even just a few games?? I don't think so.
Maybe one game, just like Picard getting a GWG, it could happen to everybody. But chances are he'll hold very little impact.

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