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07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
  #326
ThirdManIn
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Conversations with agents always get overplayed even if negotiations actually are taking place. I think we imagine them locking themselves in a room for hours on end, when in reality it's much more likely that they have lunch meetings every now and then but touch base through email or phone messages. Posturing is the most important aspect of a negotiation. Neither side wants to seem too eager or they will lose leverage. That's why I find it odd than in the same comment in which Weber's agent says there is a stalemate he also continues beating the "but he wants to stay in Nashville" drum. The stalemate is probably one side testing the other more than an actual stalemate. Who will pick up the phone first?

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07-21-2011, 11:52 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by lstcyr View Post
Being an accountant, there are numerous ways to make the numbers show you losing money even when you're not.
There definitely are, but a skilled accountant can unwind most of that sometimes using just the basic financial statements and accompanying notes. Does the NHLPA have access to the audited financial statements of the team?

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07-21-2011, 12:32 PM
  #328
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That's not what we've been told. We were told that they had discussions already, prior to the end of the season.
Suter said, on 1045, that there's been no talks as of yet. Poile also said that they're all-hands-on-deck with Weber at this point, and they might approach Suter and Rinne after that.

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07-21-2011, 12:37 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
Suter said, on 1045, that there's been no talks as of yet. Poile also said that they're all-hands-on-deck with Weber at this point, and they might approach Suter and Rinne after that.
I'm not in love with that strategy unless you really feel that Suter will stay. Though this Weber deal will be resolved soon, I'd hate to think the Preds passed up a great chance to trade Suter over the past 3-4 weeks just because they weren't aware of the path the negotiations would take. Not saying Poile passed up a great chance, but with the significant trades and signings that have occurred, the Preds might have lost several suitors and the ones available now may be less in number or less attractive.

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07-21-2011, 12:41 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I'm not in love with that strategy unless you really feel that Suter will stay. Though this Weber deal will be resolved soon, I'd hate to think the Preds passed up a great chance to trade Suter over the past 3-4 weeks just because they weren't aware of the path the negotiations would take. Not saying Poile passed up a great chance, but with the significant trades and signings that have occurred, the Preds might have lost several suitors and the ones available now may be less in number or less attractive.
Trading Suter now would be detrimental to the team's 2011-12 performance.

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07-21-2011, 12:47 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Trading Suter now would be detrimental to the team's 2011-12 performance.
It doesn't have to be. I'm not suggesting picks or prospects. I'm operating under the assumption that any deal to trade one of the big 3 is in an attempt to make the current team better. The Preds don't need to salary dump, but they may need to more effectively spread that salary around the roster instead of concentrating it on 2 D and a goalie. If Poile isn't comfortable spending $7M on Suter but is on Parise, then I take no issue with a trade of that nature and feel an argument can easily be made that it'll make the team better.

But even if this was a picks/prospects for Suter situation and that was the best the Preds could hope for, I think they have to deal Suter (once again, assuming it doesn't look like he will resign). This franchise has only two ways to add significant value to the organization: Winning a trade in a lopsided fashion and drafting very well. Because the third option available to the other championship contenders, free agency, isn't currently an avenue to add significant value to the Preds, the organization is already behind other teams in its ability to add significant value. Poile is simply not so much better than Holland, Gillis, Wilson, Shero, etc. at drafting and trading that he can overcome that massive disadvantage.

Because of that, the organization absolutely cannot afford to let significant value depart the team for nothing or much less than the departing value. They cannot let him walk via free agency and waiting until the trade deadline will result in pennies on the dollar. It makes the Preds significantly worse both now and in the future without any real ability to claw it back.


Last edited by SmokeyClause: 07-21-2011 at 12:59 PM. Reason: more thoughts
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07-21-2011, 01:23 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
It doesn't have to be. I'm not suggesting picks or prospects. I'm operating under the assumption that any deal to trade one of the big 3 is in an attempt to make the current team better. The Preds don't need to salary dump, but they may need to more effectively spread that salary around the roster instead of concentrating it on 2 D and a goalie. If Poile isn't comfortable spending $7M on Suter but is on Parise, then I take no issue with a trade of that nature and feel an argument can easily be made that it'll make the team better.

But even if this was a picks/prospects for Suter situation and that was the best the Preds could hope for, I think they have to deal Suter (once again, assuming it doesn't look like he will resign). This franchise has only two ways to add significant value to the organization: Winning a trade in a lopsided fashion and drafting very well. Because the third option available to the other championship contenders, free agency, isn't currently an avenue to add significant value to the Preds, the organization is already behind other teams in its ability to add significant value. Poile is simply not so much better than Holland, Gillis, Wilson, Shero, etc. at drafting and trading that he can overcome that massive disadvantage.

Because of that, the organization absolutely cannot afford to let significant value depart the team for nothing or much less than the departing value. They cannot let him walk via free agency and waiting until the trade deadline will result in pennies on the dollar. It makes the Preds significantly worse both now and in the future without any real ability to claw it back.
Amen Smokey - I don't want to move any of the top 3 but if we can get a Parise or B.Ryan type scorer (signed to decent contract - $$ and length), then I can see moving Suter for a forward, while he has max value. Rentals (if we wait until the trade deadline) won't get the same return.

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Old
07-21-2011, 01:43 PM
  #333
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I think what bothers me here is that by taking so long to get the Weber deal done, it's having all of these secondary impacts. The budget and interconnected long term plans for this team are so apparently tied to a Weber deal that it almost seems like Poile is only willing to do one thing at a time, even if it introduces higher risk and uncertainty.

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07-21-2011, 02:29 PM
  #334
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look at the guys heading into arbitration and when their deals got done. you are all going to have strokes by the time August 2nd rolls around.

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07-21-2011, 02:42 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
look at the guys heading into arbitration and when their deals got done. you are all going to have strokes by the time August 2nd rolls around.
it would have been really nice to have drawn and early arbitration date, at least from our standpoint as fans... although i guess it does give Poile more time to get the best deal possible.

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07-21-2011, 07:32 PM
  #336
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This is the order of negotiation snags as I see it:
1. Signing bonus
2a. Term
2b. Lack of tangible movement by Poile this summer to legitamently improve the offense to make this team a serious Stanley Cup contender
4. No trade clause
5. Yearly salary number
6. Perennial budgetary constraints & how that factors into surrounding him with predictable talent if he gets the money & term he deserves.

Thoughts?

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07-21-2011, 07:43 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
it would have been really nice to have drawn and early arbitration date, at least from our standpoint as fans... although i guess it does give Poile more time to get the best deal possible.
or completely shatter any relationship they had.....

only kidding, I just hope to god that this gets done before the arb hearing

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Old
07-21-2011, 07:53 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
This is the order of negotiation snags as I see it:
1. Signing bonus
2a. Term
2b. Lack of tangible movement by Poile this summer to legitamently improve the offense to make this team a serious Stanley Cup contender
4. No trade clause
5. Yearly salary number
6. Perennial budgetary constraints & how that factors into surrounding him with predictable talent if he gets the money & term he deserves.

Thoughts?
1 - more money is more. one of these contracts and you and i are set for life. part may be ego(wanting the most of someone at your position) part may be pure greed(see NFL/NBA millionaires vs billionaires). if we have some extra cash why not sweeten the pot, that is a big if for us.

2a - see 1 regarding money and 2b regarding support.

2b - i think poile is trying to work deals in order to bring more O to the team, maybe rads, maybe some other RFA. remember there can be quite a bit of compensation(up to 4 #1 picks depending on what they guy currently makes). not sure crosby or ovecheckin are worth that much.

4 - minor issue given the above

5 - getting them to spend above the midpoint cap-wise will be tough(business after all). but no YOUNG star wants to think he is just getting paid and has no chance to go further with no support. old stars are in it either to win the cup or get paid, not both.

6 - see 5 above. it is one of those chicken and egg deals. foppa deal left a bad aftertaste in my mouth. yea at the time it seemed great, but the returns were far less than what we paid, see current philly team. i know if you don't try to change anything nothing is likely to change. just hard to go "all in" with an average hand. of course this year is as optomistic as we have ever been going into a season, so maybe now is the time to roll the dice.(OK no more gambling references)

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Old
07-21-2011, 08:01 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irisheyes555 View Post


1 - more money is more. one of these contracts and you and i are set for life. part may be ego(wanting the most of someone at your position) part may be pure greed(see NFL/NBA millionaires vs billionaires). if we have some extra cash why not sweeten the pot, that is a big if for us.

2a - see 1 regarding money and 2b regarding support.

2b - i think poile is trying to work deals in order to bring more O to the team, maybe rads, maybe some other RFA. remember there can be quite a bit of compensation(up to 4 #1 picks depending on what they guy currently makes). not sure crosby or ovecheckin are worth that much.

4 - minor issue given the above

5 - getting them to spend above the midpoint cap-wise will be tough(business after all). but no YOUNG star wants to think he is just getting paid and has no chance to go further with no support. old stars are in it either to win the cup or get paid, not both.

6 - see 5 above. it is one of those chicken and egg deals. foppa deal left a bad aftertaste in my mouth. yea at the time it seemed great, but the returns were far less than what we paid, see current philly team. i know if you don't try to change anything nothing is likely to change. just hard to go "all in" with an average hand. of course this year is as optomistic as we have ever been going into a season, so maybe now is the time to roll the dice.(OK no more gambling references)
Do you by chance have a gambling problem?

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Old
07-21-2011, 08:10 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
This is the order of negotiation snags as I see it:
1. Signing bonus
2a. Term
2b. Lack of tangible movement by Poile this summer to legitamently improve the offense to make this team a serious Stanley Cup contender
4. No trade clause
5. Yearly salary number
6. Perennial budgetary constraints & how that factors into surrounding him with predictable talent if he gets the money & term he deserves.

Thoughts?
Some extra thoughts:
Signing bonus - Poile has never given one...they are the new current rage. Any signing bonus to weber sets up a precedent to Suter and Rinne. That is why I think it is the #1 issue.

NTC - It was the most recent rage. Poile has been burned bad by Dumont's and hampered by Arnott's and possibly even by Erat & Legwand's. I'm sure weber will want one, but could be an issue.

I think 2a & 2b are intimately intertwined.

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07-21-2011, 10:38 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick View Post
Some extra thoughts:
Signing bonus - Poile has never given one...they are the new current rage. Any signing bonus to weber sets up a precedent to Suter and Rinne. That is why I think it is the #1 issue.

NTC - It was the most recent rage. Poile has been burned bad by Dumont's and hampered by Arnott's and possibly even by Erat & Legwand's. I'm sure weber will want one, but could be an issue.

I think 2a & 2b are intimately intertwined.
It seems Weber is a long way from the unassuming, ego-free kid we thought he was a couple of years ago.

I think the Olympics changed him.

I agree that the signing bonus situation has the potential to be devastating to the whole Poile team buliding plan.

If Weber is really going to hold poile hostage for not signing someone in this summers crazy ufa market, I have to question his grip on reality.

in the end, if there are really this many major issues with Weber, I think we'd be better off trading him for Parise, if NJ would do it

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07-21-2011, 11:14 PM
  #342
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Why does everyone seem to assume that since Weber hasn't signed, it means he A) doesn't want to play here long term B) is a money greedy ******* C) we need to trade him

?


Last edited by Seth Lake: 07-21-2011 at 11:22 PM. Reason: let the filter do its job
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Old
07-21-2011, 11:18 PM
  #343
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Signing bonuses are "all the rage" because players are afraid of a potential lockout and want to get paid now.

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07-21-2011, 11:29 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
Why does everyone seem to assume that since Weber hasn't signed, it means he A) doesn't want to play here long term B) is a money greedy ******* C) we need to trade him

?
People assume he doesn't want to play here long term because of the Strickland rumor.

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07-21-2011, 11:34 PM
  #345
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Yeah if I hadn't read that Strickland thing I'd still be rather calm about this.

Well...calm without Scotch influence.

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07-21-2011, 11:54 PM
  #346
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People assume he doesn't want to play here long term because of the Strickland rumor.
Two very key words in that sentence.


I'm not saying I know what's going on inside Shea's head...but to me it seems like panic among the fans.

He hasn't signed yet. Why?

Yes, it could be that he has had a change of heart about playing here long term, and he now considers what his prospects are with other teams.

It could be that [his agent] and Poile have agreed about the term of the contract, but just not the dollar amount.

It could be that they have agreed on the dollar amount, but Shea wants a short term deal, and Poile is only willing to entertain a long term deal.

Or it could be some other factor. We truly do not know at this point...and there remains the possibility that we'll never find out.

There are a lot of ifs that we simply don't know about or don't understand from a fan's perspective. I simply don't trust the media to feed me information on how the negotiations are going. The media, and especially twitter's track record is questionable at best. I don't really care how reputable a "sports journalist" is, all I care about is the ink on the contract...so either way, I know by August 2nd that we'll have a better idea on what the future for Shea Weber is in Nashville. I think speculation is pretty much pointless for the next week and a half, as I doubt anything will be done until either right before the hearing, or until after the hearing itself.

I'll withhold judgment on our captain until that point. I feel it is wrong to assume things when we don't have all of the facts. Again, a one year arbitration deal is not necessarily a sign that Weber does not want to be here, but merely that he is not satisfied with the current contract offer. For all we know, Poile & Co. could be low balling him. Let's face it, Weber is a professional athlete, and if many of us were in his shoes, we would demand fair compensation for what we believe we are worth. Home town discounts are lovely, but they aren't necessarily the norm, even to players that like where they are playing.

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07-22-2011, 12:06 AM
  #347
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It's a normal freakin' negotiation. OMG ... Stamkos is never going to, uh, oops, he signed. Dubinsky is definitely going to his hearing no matter ... 4 year deal on the brink of arbitration. Parise and Doughty aren't signed yet ..... PANIC!!!! THE WORLD MIGHT STOP SPINNING!!!!

It's a negotiation. Both sides are going to portray the other as being the obstacle as they make offer and counter offers to work out a deal.

Relax.

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07-22-2011, 12:09 AM
  #348
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Well they need to stretch it out at least a few more days so I have proper motivation to buy at least one more bottle off the top shelf.

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07-22-2011, 12:35 AM
  #349
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Well they need to stretch it out at least a few more days so I have proper motivation to buy at least one more bottle off the top shelf.
Top shelf scotch? Why?

Just buy yourself a bottle of Everclear, a gallon of Gatorade, and several Red Bulls. And mix them together.






You'll thank me later.

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07-22-2011, 06:06 AM
  #350
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..... I think speculation is pretty much pointless for the next week and a half......
Lol, if there were no speculation, there would be no hfboards....*nd if there were no hfboards we would be having to watch "Housewives" with our spouses or "Teen Mom" with our significant others.....

No, speculation is what keeps us sane during the hockey summer doldroms.

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